What's Happ

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Duran, Mata, Chavis, Beni & Chatham

for

Taillon, Musgrove & Polanco

 

I'm on the record for keeping Mata, our top pitching prospect (who I expect to see in the majors sometime in '21). I also wouldn't trade Casas, who is still growing while still improving. Who would you say are our top trading chips this winter, from the majors and then also from the minors? Because of contracts -- and assuming the Red Sox want to build around Devers and Verdugo -- I'd consider the following as the most valued chips: Vazquez, Dalbec, Hernandez, Chavis (Barnes?) from the 25-man, and Downs, Duran, Jimenez, Groome, Ward etc. from the minors.

 

Any of them could be moved, and it won't move the Earth.

[moonslav59]

I'm on the record for keeping Mata, our top pitching prospect (who I expect to see in the majors sometime in '21). I also wouldn't trade Casas, who is still growing while still improving. Who would you say are our top trading chips this winter, from the majors and then also from the minors? Because of contracts -- and assuming the Red Sox want to build around Devers and Verdugo -- I'd consider the following as the most valued chips: Vazquez, Dalbec, Hernandez, Chavis (Barnes?) from the 25-man, and Downs, Duran, Jimenez, Groome, Ward etc. from the minors.

 

Any of them could be moved, and it won't move the Earth.

 

I'd rather trade Groome + Ward than Mata, but my thoughts are that Pittsburgh will want some top talent for those two decent starter- both in their prime, and both with 2 years of team control remaining.

 

I agree on trying to keep the core of Devers, Casas, Mata & Verdugo with DHern & Dalbec as two I'd only let go for worthwhile returns.

 

Looking at the values assigned to our trading chips by the Trade Values site, I'd say these are the most tradable players on our roster:

 

21.0 Vaz

12.1 Duran

8.5 Jimenez

7.5 Chavis

5.5 Beni

4.9 Chatham

 

Maybe Downs at 26.4

 

[Sox75]

idk I really want to see what Groome becomes.

 

Any chance he's ready by 22?

[Larry Cook]

idk I really want to see what Groome becomes.

 

Any chance he's ready by 22?

 

I don’t think so. Late 2023 would be more realistic.

[oldtimer]

I'd rather trade Groome + Ward than Mata, but my thoughts are that Pittsburgh will want some top talent for those two decent starter- both in their prime, and both with 2 years of team control remaining.

 

I agree on trying to keep the core of Devers, Casas, Mata & Verdugo with DHern & Dalbec as two I'd only let go for worthwhile returns.

 

Looking at the values assigned to our trading chips by the Trade Values site, I'd say these are the most tradable players on our roster:

 

21.0 Vaz

12.1 Duran

8.5 Jimenez

7.5 Chavis

5.5 Beni

4.9 Chatham

 

Maybe Downs at 26.4

 

 

In the immortal words or Ronald Reagan, "There you go again". I'm just glad we have Bloom at the helm since I expect that he will stick to the plan of making the team consistently competitive. I see him making an effort to hang onto our best young talent while dealing away those who don't fit that description.

 

DHern is in an area of critical need and should be kept. We can probably do better than Chavis and that applies to Beni as well. Dalbec is worth keeping but is certainly no shoo-in, especially since Casas may be a long term MLer at the same position. Downs and Duran are young and promising and should be kept. JDM does not fit the plan that well but is probably not tradable. I'll wait to see how Bloom goes, but I hope he really sticks with the plan.

[notin]

I'd rather trade Groome + Ward than Mata, but my thoughts are that Pittsburgh will want some top talent for those two decent starter- both in their prime, and both with 2 years of team control remaining.

 

I agree on trying to keep the core of Devers, Casas, Mata & Verdugo with DHern & Dalbec as two I'd only let go for worthwhile returns.

 

Looking at the values assigned to our trading chips by the Trade Values site, I'd say these are the most tradable players on our roster:

 

21.0 Vaz

12.1 Duran

8.5 Jimenez

7.5 Chavis

5.5 Beni

4.9 Chatham

 

Maybe Downs at 26.4

 

 

Downs and Vazquez head the list...

[moonslav59]

In the immortal words or Ronald Reagan, "There you go again". I'm just glad we have Bloom at the helm since I expect that he will stick to the plan of making the team consistently competitive. I see him making an effort to hang onto our best young talent while dealing away those who don't fit that description.

 

DHern is in an area of critical need and should be kept. We can probably do better than Chavis and that applies to Beni as well. Dalbec is worth keeping but is certainly no shoo-in, especially since Casas may be a long term MLer at the same position. Downs and Duran are young and promising and should be kept. JDM does not fit the plan that well but is probably not tradable. I'll wait to see how Bloom goes, but I hope he really sticks with the plan.

 

Dalbec can play 1B or 3B. By the time Casas is ready, Devers will be a FA.

[moonslav59]

Downs and Vazquez head the list...

 

Agreed, but if Bloom really likes Downs and sees him as part of the future "foundation," he may be near "off-limits."

 

That's why I listed him separately. Keeping your best 2-3 prospects is usually, but not always, part of a plan to rebuild for long term success.

[moonslav59]

In the immortal words or Ronald Reagan, "There you go again". I'm just glad we have Bloom at the helm since I expect that he will stick to the plan of making the team consistently competitive. I see him making an effort to hang onto our best young talent while dealing away those who don't fit that description.

 

That's why I left Casas and Downs off the list.

 

I included Duran, because I don't share the same optimism on him as many here. Maybe Bloom disagrees with me, and I trust he knows more about him than I do.

 

These are just my opinions.

 

For all we know, Chavis, Chatham and Duran could end up being better than Dalbec, Downs and Casas.

 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

That's why I left Casas and Downs off the list.

 

I included Duran, because I don't share the same optimism on him as many here. Maybe Bloom disagrees with me, and I trust he knows more about him than I do.

 

These are just my opinions.

 

For all we know, Chavis, Chatham and Duran could end up being better than Dalbec, Downs and Casas.

 

 

... and it could even be in a different industry, since they all could be out of baseball in a few years.

 

I was looking back at the Red Sox top 10, 20, 30 prospects from a decade ago; yikes. But somehow, Epstein pulled off the Adrian Gonzo trade -- a blockbuster at the time. AG was a number one overall draft pick and a budding star. The key guy going back to SD turned out to be Rizzo -- instead of the overrated Lars Anderson.

 

Theo knew it, too, because the first thing he did when he joined the Cubs was to get Rizzo back (though he had to force himself to part with Andrew Cashner).

[notin]

... and it could even be in a different industry, since they all could be out of baseball in a few years.

 

I was looking back at the Red Sox top 10, 20, 30 prospects from a decade ago; yikes. But somehow, Epstein pulled off the Adrian Gonzo trade -- a blockbuster at the time. AG was a number one overall draft pick and a budding star. The key guy going back to SD turned out to be Rizzo -- instead of the overrated Lars Anderson.

 

Theo knew it, too, because the first thing he did when he joined the Cubs was to get Rizzo back (though he had to force himself to part with Andrew Cashner).

 

I’ve always linked Rizzo with Jed Hoyer. Hoyer was with the Sox when he was drafted, and was the GM in both San Diego and the Cubs when each team acquired Rizzo.

 

Could be a coincidence, but they were my thoughts at the time...

[Bellhorn04]

I’ve always linked Rizzo with Jed Hoyer. Hoyer was with the Sox when he was drafted, and was the GM in both San Diego and the Cubs when each team acquired Rizzo.

 

Could be a coincidence, but they were my thoughts at the time...

 

Sounds pretty plausible to me. The dots connect.

[moonslav59]

... and it could even be in a different industry, since they all could be out of baseball in a few years.

 

I was looking back at the Red Sox top 10, 20, 30 prospects from a decade ago; yikes. But somehow, Epstein pulled off the Adrian Gonzo trade -- a blockbuster at the time. AG was a number one overall draft pick and a budding star. The key guy going back to SD turned out to be Rizzo -- instead of the overrated Lars Anderson.

 

Theo knew it, too, because the first thing he did when he joined the Cubs was to get Rizzo back (though he had to force himself to part with Andrew Cashner).

 

Those farms certainly had some low points, but under Theo and Ben, there were some rock solid ones, too.

 

The year you speak of, 2010, was not the worst.

 

#1 Kelly was highly regarded and was part of that AGon trade with #3 Rizzo.

 

Kalish was #3, Iggy #4, Doubront #5, Reddick 8, Workman 19 and Westmoreland- a very sad case. After that trade, our farm hit one of its lowest point in the last 2 decades, but soon Bogey and others beefed it back up.

 

Here's a sampling of a few select years top prospects (soxprospects.com):

 

2003: (farm left to Theo) HRam, Youk, Lester, Freddy Sanchez, J de la Rosa, Shoppach, David Murphy, Delcarmen

 

2004: Lester, HRam, Youk, Papelbon, A Sanchez, Moss, Shoppach, Delcarmen

 

2007: Ellsbury, Buchholz, Pedey, Masterson, Lowrie, Moss, Reddick, Gabbard, Doubroint, Bard

 

2012: (farm left by Theo for Ben): Bogey, Barnes, Iggy, Alex Wilson, Middy, Kalish, Ranuado, Swihart, Brentz, Lava

 

2013: Betts, Bogey, JBJ, Barnes, Vazquez, Iggy, Workman, A Wilson, Margot

 

2015: (the farm left by Ben for DD) Moncada, Devers, ERod, Margot, Espinoza, Beni, Kopech, Allen, Chavis, T Shaw, Dubon, J Guerra, B Johnson

 

2018: Dalbec, Groome, Mata, DHern, Casas, Beeks, Chavis

 

2019: (the farm DD left Bloom): Casas, Mata, Groome, Jimenez, Dalbec, Duran, Houck, Song, Chatham, Ward

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by moonslav59

[mvp 78]

That 2012 prospect list isn’t that good.

[moonslav59]

That 2012 prospect list isn’t that good.

 

No, and that should be part of the equation when judging Ben's whole body of work those 4 years.

 

Also, Theo spoke about moving away from their success model in his later years with the Sox.

[Bellhorn04]

No, and that should be part of the equation when judging Ben's whole body of work those 4 years.

 

Also, Theo spoke about moving away from their success model in his later years with the Sox.

 

And then he followed much the same pattern with the Cubs.

[moonslav59]

And then he followed much the same pattern with the Cubs.

 

I guess it's natural to move towards a more "win now," or "we just need one more player" strategy.

 

At least, it seems that way.

[Bellhorn04]

I guess it's natural to move towards a more "win now," or "we just need one more player" strategy.

 

At least, it seems that way.

 

Yes, when you have that window and you know it's going to close soon, it's pretty hard to resist.

[moonslav59]

Yes, when you have that window and you know it's going to close soon, it's pretty hard to resist.

 

It seems like DD had that mentality from day 1.

 

I still think Ben would have begun to trade some prospects- not on the scale of DD, but he was not given another year or two to find out.

 

It seems like Ben was the only recent Sox GM who left the farm better off than when he became GM.

 

(I'm not complaining. I was and still am happy with all our last 5 GMs.)

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Yes, when you have that window and you know it's going to close soon, it's pretty hard to resist.

 

What do we call what the Red Sox are peering through now? There's no window... keyhole? knothole? crack in the wall?

 

Slogging through an entire pandemic offseason, combined with Bloom's ultra-deliberate look-under-every-single-stone-in-the-quarry approach, makes an impatient Sox fan long for the Dombro days of recruiting: establish/broadcast need, attain/welcome acquisition, call it a week.

[moonslav59]

What do we call what the Red Sox are peering through now? There's no window... keyhole? knothole? crack in the wall?

 

Slogging through an entire pandemic offseason, combined with Bloom's ultra-deliberate look-under-every-single-stone-in-the-quarry approach, makes an impatient Sox fan long for the Dombro days of recruiting: establish/broadcast need, attain/welcome acquisition, call it a week.

 

DD would have already traded Casas and Downs plus more. With a small spending budget, he'd be lost.

[Bellhorn04]

It seems like DD had that mentality from day 1.

 

I still think Ben would have begun to trade some prospects- not on the scale of DD, but he was not given another year or two to find out.

 

I mostly give DD a pass on trading prospects, because he only traded them for two things:

 

1) Pitching - which we needed desperately.

2) Deadline acquisitions.

[Bellhorn04]

DD would have already traded Casas and Downs plus more. With a small spending budget, he'd be lost.

 

Both points are debatable. He didn't trade Devers. As for the budget, we don't know how he'd handle that because it's been so long since he was in that position.

[mvp 78]

What do we call what the Red Sox are peering through now? There's no window... keyhole? knothole? crack in the wall?

 

Slogging through an entire pandemic offseason, combined with Bloom's ultra-deliberate look-under-every-single-stone-in-the-quarry approach, makes an impatient Sox fan long for the Dombro days of recruiting: establish/broadcast need, attain/welcome acquisition, call it a week.

 

Light at the end of the tunnel.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Light at the end of the tunnel.

 

Don't go into the light!

[moonslav59]

I mostly give DD a pass on trading prospects, because he only traded them for two things:

 

1) Pitching - which we needed desperately.

2) Deadline acquisitions.

 

I mostly give him a pass, because he did what Henry signed him to do, but getting almost all pitching was also commendable.

 

A side note: he did trade a lot of pitchers, too: Kopech (Sale), Espinoza (Pompom), Allen (Kimbrell), Beeks (Eovaldi), Buttrey (Kinsler), Bautista, Nogosek & Callahan (Reed), Anderson & Santos (Nunes).

 

The only mostly non pitchers given up deals were the Sale (Moncada & Basaabe) , Kimbrel (Margot, Guerra & Asuaje) and Thornburg (Dubon & T Shaw).

 

[moonslav59]

Both points are debatable. He didn't trade Devers. As for the budget, we don't know how he'd handle that because it's been so long since he was in that position.

 

Well, we know he wouldn't sign a bunch of high-priced FAs.

 

If he tried to "win now" he'd have to trade somebody without opening new holes on the ML roster, so maybe not Casas or Downs, but some prospects would likely be gone.

 

Yes, speculation and up for debate.

[notin]

Well, we know he wouldn't sign a bunch of high-priced FAs.

 

If he tried to "win now" he'd have to trade somebody without opening new holes on the ML roster, so maybe not Casas or Downs, but some prospects would likely be gone.

 

Yes, speculation and up for debate.

 

While it is only speculation, DD's history certainly does indicate it was strongly possible.

 

While we do know he did not trade Devers, what we don't know is if he tried to. I would not be surprised if Devers name came up a few times...

[mvp 78]

While it is only speculation, DD's history certainly does indicate it was strongly possible.

 

While we do know he did not trade Devers, what we don't know is if he tried to. I would not be surprised if Devers name came up a few times...

 

It came up in the Sale trade. DD said no.

[moonslav59]

I don't view Casas like I did Devers, and I'm not sure anyone does.