Why was Mookie traded, exactly?

[notin]

Weird things happen from time to time I guess. I don't disagree that from time to time teams with what look to be incredible amounts of talent don't get it done. what I object to actually are the posts like this that get dug up to prove what we all know happens from time to time. There are too many mitigating factors to be considered when trying to figure out why sometimes great teams just can't get it done. Give me those guys and a good pitching staff and I would take my chances against your team anyday.

 

Also, depending on who says them

[cp176]

Also, depending on who says them

 

Quite likely. Probably time to just say what you mean i guess. Although I have to say that I don't spend that much time trying to dig crap up just to try to prove a point. I'll continue to take my chances with those great players on a regular basis. Much of this little discussion for me revolves around what the qualities might be of a great player. I'm thinking that mine might be a little different than many others here just based on reading what they have written over the years. Oh - hey I think that it is really cool how you highlight parts of what I have written. lol

[Kimmi]

I expect Henry to still spend. I just think he wants a GM who doesn’t go all in all at once with regards to payroll and emptying the farm system thus leaving the team as the huge steaming pile of payroll we are watching today...

 

You are on a roll Notin!

[Bellhorn04]

I expect Henry to still spend. I just think he wants a GM who doesn’t go all in all at once with regards to payroll and emptying the farm system thus leaving the team as the huge steaming pile of payroll we are watching today...

 

But he did want that GM in 2015...

[Kimmi]

I agree, if by unsung you mean "dirtdogs" -- the solid players who seem to get more out of their abilities than expected (according to pro and amateur pundits), and who always at least look like they care as much as the fans do. When you're making millions of dollars to play a game at a level that millions of fans can only wish they could, then you'd better hustle.

 

Of all the team sports, baseball is unique: the sum deeds of isolated individuals. Mookie didn't pitch, but he was the best player on the best team in the AL East for three straight years (based on WAR)... and all five full seasons of his career in Boston. It doesn't take Bloom to tell us -- like he did after the trade -- that the Red Sox wouldn't have been as good without him.

 

It's not necessarily dirtdogs, though they could certainly be included. When I think 'unsung hero', I'm thinking of the players that don't receive the attention and the stardom of someone like Mookie. Whether right or wrong, the notion of unsung hero is closely tied in to salary.

 

Mitch Moreland comes to mind. Everyone who has any interest in baseball knows who Mookie is. How many casual fans know who Moreland is? Even those who may know who Moreland is probably don't pay him much attention. He just quietly goes about his business without all the fanfare.

 

There is no question that the Sox are not as good as team without Mookie as they are with him. But the ensuing moves have not been made yet. If you're going to compare Mookie against Verdugo, Mookie is clearly the winner. If you're going to compare Mookie against Verdugo and Players 1, 2, 3 that will be acquired or kept with the money saved from not paying Mookie, I think the latter would likely become the winner.

[Kimmi]

But he did want that GM in 2015...

 

He did. Hopefully he now sees the errors of his ways.

[notin]

But he did want that GM in 2015...

 

Yes he did. He wanted a spend-heavy winner, especially after Cherington proved to be a tad less than King Midas in free agency (

 

But even the heavy spending wouldn’t have been so bad if not coupled with the emptying of the farm system, leaving no minimum wage players to help keep the payroll sustainable....

[Bellhorn04]

Yes he did. He wanted a spend-heavy winner, especially after Cherington proved to be a tad less than King Midas in free agency (

 

But even the heavy spending wouldn’t have been so bad if not coupled with the emptying of the farm system, leaving no minimum wage players to help keep the payroll sustainable....

 

The current state of the team can be blamed on DD, Henry, and Ben. Ben left the team with very little pitching, that was his main contribution.

[notin]

The current state of the team can be blamed on DD, Henry, and Ben. Ben left the team with very little pitching, that was his main contribution.

 

Ben was also the antecedent to DD. Had Cherington been capable of signing even a reasonable free agent instead of Ramirez, Sandoval and Castillo (although to be fair, Castillo barely had a chance), things might have been much different.

 

I really don’t blame Henry for the personnel decisions. Whether or not he approves of them is a secondary part at best. After all, he does hire a GM to make baseball decisions. Is he supposed to then second-guess everything?

[a700hitter]

He did. Hopefully he now sees the errors of his ways.

Three consecutive Division Championships, topped off with the best season in franchise history and a World Championship? Speaking for myself, I really enjoyed that "error". It was an unprecedented run. This, I am not enjoying.err

[a700hitter]

The current state of the team can be blamed on DD, Henry, and Ben. Ben left the team with very little pitching, that was his main contribution.

And Ben left DD with choking debt that was completely unproductive.

[notin]

And Ben left DD with choking debt that was completely unproductive.

 

True, but the farm system was another type of currency that was used to pay off that debt.

 

And one of those choking debt contracts did win a Cy Young award...

[cp176]

He did. Hopefully he now sees the errors of his ways.

 

seriously - John Henry and the error of his ways - hmmm I kind of enjoyed the errors that he made!

[Kimmi]

Ben was also the antecedent to DD. Had Cherington been capable of signing even a reasonable free agent instead of Ramirez, Sandoval and Castillo (although to be fair, Castillo barely had a chance), things might have been much different.

 

I really don’t blame Henry for the personnel decisions. Whether or not he approves of them is a secondary part at best. After all, he does hire a GM to make baseball decisions. Is he supposed to then second-guess everything?

 

Sandoval was not Ben's decision. It goes so against his philosophy and thinking that it can't possibly be. Hanley I'm up in the air about. Castillo was most definitely a Ben decision.

[Kimmi]

Three consecutive Division Championships, topped off with the best season in franchise history and a World Championship? Speaking for myself, I really enjoyed that "error". It was an unprecedented run. This, I am not enjoying.err

 

seriously - John Henry and the error of his ways - hmmm I kind of enjoyed the errors that he made!

 

So, if Dombrowski is such a great GM who can take the team to the playoffs every year, why did Henry fire him? Exactly. Henry realized the error of his ways. Theo, Ben, and Bloom are all the same type of GM philosophically. Dombrowski is a completely different animal. Is it surprising that Henry went back to hiring the type of GM that Theo and Ben are? Not at all.

 

That great run over the past 4 years is 80% on Theo and Ben, 20% on Dombrowski. This year is 98% on Dombrowski.

[notin]

Sandoval was not Ben's decision. It goes so against his philosophy and thinking that it can't possibly be. Hanley I'm up in the air about. Castillo was most definitely a Ben decision.

 

While I get your point, I just attribute all deals under a GM to that GM. Except Hazen, although his departure might also explain Dombrowski’s sudden carelessness with some deals...

[notin]

Three consecutive Division Championships, topped off with the best season in franchise history and a World Championship? Speaking for myself, I really enjoyed that "error". It was an unprecedented run. This, I am not enjoying.err

 

But this is the fallout from that unprecedented run...

[notin]

Quite likely. Probably time to just say what you mean i guess. Although I have to say that I don't spend that much time trying to dig crap up just to try to prove a point. I'll continue to take my chances with those great players on a regular basis. Much of this little discussion for me revolves around what the qualities might be of a great player. I'm thinking that mine might be a little different than many others here just based on reading what they have written over the years. Oh - hey I think that it is really cool how you highlight parts of what I have written. lol

 

Oh I will do occasional “research,” by which I mean poking around sites like Fangraphs and B-R for some data.

 

And while I form staunch opinions, I can be convinced otherwise. (Something 5GoldGloves does more often than I care to admit)

 

Heck the very post you challenged me on was a point made by S5 that gave me pause. (S5 and I are not known to agree on things, going back to other websites, back when he just used the name “S5”).

 

But I also felt he made a rather astute observation and I threw some data behind it...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

So, if Dombrowski is such a great GM who can take the team to the playoffs every year, why did Henry fire him? Exactly. Henry realized the error of his ways. Theo, Ben, and Bloom are all the same type of GM philosophically. Dombrowski is a completely different animal. Is it surprising that Henry went back to hiring the type of GM that Theo and Ben are? Not at all.

 

That great run over the past 4 years is 80% on Theo and Ben, 20% on Dombrowski. This year is 98% on Dombrowski.

 

I don't see it that way, but I'm not blaming 98% on Bloom, either. If Dombro was still around, and ownership chose to pay the tax and stay competitive this year, there's no reason the Sox couldn't have acquired Ryu, Roark, Anderson, Walker, Ray and Stripling -- the six new starting pitchers Toronto added this season.

 

Instead, Boston the Franchise abstained... but it was Chaim Bloom -- not Dombrowski -- who picked up guys like Godley, Mazza, Brice, Osich, Springs, Valdez, Stock, Kickham, Triggs, Covey, Leyer and the mortal Matt Hall. It's hard to imagine Dombro combing the bargain bins in the first place... which is probably why he was fired and Bloom hired.

 

Maybe 2020 will be best remembered for Bloom getting Martin Perez, the ace who leads the club with three wins. Perez is certainly better than Andrew Cashner, Dombro's last starting pitcher added to the Sox a year ago. But most of Dave's starting mound recruits in Boston were worthy of the price at the time: Eovaldi, Pomeranz, Sale, Price (as most fans would agree). He was never in the position where he "wasn't allowed" to improve the Sox, as many feel Bloom has been in since his arrival. But now that the reset is reset, the pleasure -- and pressure -- will be all Bloom's...

[dgalehouse]

I think that results are the most important thing . That is why we have scoreboards and standings of the clubs . Otherwise, we tend to succumb to favoritism and our own particular biases. We will have our favorites and our not so favorites. We will give our favorites credit for anything positive and blame the negative on someone else . And the reverse for our not so favorites. And that's okay. Human nature. But I think it is better and more fair to just look at the old scoreboard. No excuses, no rationalizing, no spin , no speculation . Just the results.

[Larry Cook]

Sandoval was not Ben's decision. It goes so against his philosophy and thinking that it can't possibly be. Hanley I'm up in the air about. Castillo was most definitely a Ben decision.

 

This is so true! And yes Hanley was also all on Larry as well.

 

Maybe one day we will learn just how much Larry interfered with cherrington, but most likely that day is not anytime soon!

 

And yes, these two bad Larry deals did screw the pooch for desperate Dave a little bit when desperate Dave was starting!

[cp176]

Oh I will do occasional “research,” by which I mean poking around sites like Fangraphs and B-R for some data.

 

And while I form staunch opinions, I can be convinced otherwise. (Something 5GoldGloves does more often than I care to admit)

 

Heck the very post you challenged me on was a point made by S5 that gave me pause. (S5 and I are not known to agree on things, going back to other websites, back when he just used the name “S5”).

 

But I also felt he made a rather astute observation and I threw some data behind it...

 

good

[cp176]

So, if Dombrowski is such a great GM who can take the team to the playoffs every year, why did Henry fire him? Exactly. Henry realized the error of his ways. Theo, Ben, and Bloom are all the same type of GM philosophically. Dombrowski is a completely different animal. Is it surprising that Henry went back to hiring the type of GM that Theo and Ben are? Not at all.

 

That great run over the past 4 years is 80% on Theo and Ben, 20% on Dombrowski. This year is 98% on Dombrowski.

 

Well obviously i disagree with you but to be fair I don't recall ever getting to hung up on who the GM is or was. I'm not sure that my defending a person who I think did a good job running our team can be considered as calling him a great GM. I don't rate GM's, I defend them. I am a fan of whoever the current GM is. I think that blaming anyone for a past that you didn't happen to like is a bit of copout. Each of the GM's that we have had have had positives and negatives with respect to what they have done. Any criticism that I have levied toward Ben Cherington has been a direct result of the constant chatter aimed directly at trying to find fault with Dave Dombrowski. Dombrowski was much more my type of GM for sure but I'm not sure why that is even relevant these days. We have a new GM and I am a fan.

[Kimmi]

I don't see it that way, but I'm not blaming 98% on Bloom, either. If Dombro was still around, and ownership chose to pay the tax and stay competitive this year, there's no reason the Sox couldn't have acquired Ryu, Roark, Anderson, Walker, Ray and Stripling -- the six new starting pitchers Toronto added this season.

 

Instead, Boston the Franchise abstained... but it was Chaim Bloom -- not Dombrowski -- who picked up guys like Godley, Mazza, Brice, Osich, Springs, Valdez, Stock, Kickham, Triggs, Covey, Leyer and the mortal Matt Hall. It's hard to imagine Dombro combing the bargain bins in the first place... which is probably why he was fired and Bloom hired.

 

Maybe 2020 will be best remembered for Bloom getting Martin Perez, the ace who leads the club with three wins. Perez is certainly better than Andrew Cashner, Dombro's last starting pitcher added to the Sox a year ago. But most of Dave's starting mound recruits in Boston were worthy of the price at the time: Eovaldi, Pomeranz, Sale, Price (as most fans would agree). He was never in the position where he "wasn't allowed" to improve the Sox, as many feel Bloom has been in since his arrival. But now that the reset is reset, the pleasure -- and pressure -- will be all Bloom's...

 

Is Dombrowski the only GM who's capable of spending a ton of money on free agents? Any GM who has an owner with an open checkbook can do that. The problem is that the checkbook will not remain open forever. A GM needs to take that into account, and I don't believe Dombrowski did.

 

It's because of Dombrowski's approach that Bloom was limited to picking up the guys that he did. If Dombrowski was told that he could not spend this year, then he would either have to shop in the bargain bin or simply not add anyone.

 

The problem is not with the guys that Bloom picked up, it's with the fact that we lost our top 3 starters. IMO, Perez is a solid #4 pitcher. The slew of bargain bin pitchers would have been more than fine as our #5 pitcher. But when injuries happen and your #4 guy becomes your #1, and your #5 candidates have to fill spots #2-5, it's a whole different picture that I don't think any GM can overcome without the ability to spend.

[Kimmi]

I think that results are the most important thing . That is why we have scoreboards and standings of the clubs . Otherwise, we tend to succumb to favoritism and our own particular biases. We will have our favorites and our not so favorites. We will give our favorites credit for anything positive and blame the negative on someone else . And the reverse for our not so favorites. And that's okay. Human nature. But I think it is better and more fair to just look at the old scoreboard. No excuses, no rationalizing, no spin , no speculation . Just the results.

 

Results are ultimately the bottom line. It's not that simple though. You simply cannot look at the scoreboard this year and blame Bloom for the failure of the team without considering the state of the team inherited.

[Kimmi]

This is so true! And yes Hanley was also all on Larry as well.

 

Maybe one day we will learn just how much Larry interfered with cherrington, but most likely that day is not anytime soon!

 

And yes, these two bad Larry deals did screw the pooch for desperate Dave a little bit when desperate Dave was starting!

 

I'm willing to bet that Lucchino was the heavy hand behind several of those long term contracts.

 

Not to say that Theo and Ben didn't make their share of mistakes, but I think they would have made fewer is Lucchino left them alone to make the baseball ops decisions. Lucchino is a shrewd businessman. He should have stuck to the business aspect of the team.

[Bellhorn04]

That great run over the past 4 years is 80% on Theo and Ben, 20% on Dombrowski. This year is 98% on Dombrowski.

 

That's pretty unfair IMHO. Too much credit to Ben. He left the team with little pitching and some horrible contracts. He was no Theo.

[Kimmi]

Well obviously i disagree with you but to be fair I don't recall ever getting to hung up on who the GM is or was. I'm not sure that my defending a person who I think did a good job running our team can be considered as calling him a great GM. I don't rate GM's, I defend them. I am a fan of whoever the current GM is. I think that blaming anyone for a past that you didn't happen to like is a bit of copout. Each of the GM's that we have had have had positives and negatives with respect to what they have done. Any criticism that I have levied toward Ben Cherington has been a direct result of the constant chatter aimed directly at trying to find fault with Dave Dombrowski. Dombrowski was much more my type of GM for sure but I'm not sure why that is even relevant these days. We have a new GM and I am a fan.

 

Dombrowski is a smart baseball man. I just don't agree with his philosophy of building baseball teams. That said, I have posted several times that I thought every move that he made in 2018 was on point.

 

I'm a Bloom fan because I believe in his team building philosophy. If he goes out and signs Bauer to a 7 year deal, I will criticize that move just as I would if Dombrowski made it.

[Kimmi]

That's pretty unfair IMHO. Too much credit to Ben. He left the team with little pitching and some horrible contracts. He was no Theo.

 

1. I agree that Ben is no Theo. Theo is the GOAT.

 

2. I said Theo and Ben get 80% credit.

 

3. Ben was Theo's right hand man for all those years that Theo was at the helm. He gets part credit for Theo's moves.

 

4. Even though Ben might have left the team with no pitching, he left the team with a top 3 farm system, along with a core of cost-controlled MLB players. So the moves that Dombrowski made for pitching were only possible because of the resources that were left by Ben, both prospects and money.

[Bellhorn04]

I think that results are the most important thing . That is why we have scoreboards and standings of the clubs . Otherwise, we tend to succumb to favoritism and our own particular biases. We will have our favorites and our not so favorites. We will give our favorites credit for anything positive and blame the negative on someone else . And the reverse for our not so favorites. And that's okay. Human nature. But I think it is better and more fair to just look at the old scoreboard. No excuses, no rationalizing, no spin , no speculation . Just the results.

 

That may be a proper rule, but sometimes you have to make exceptions.

 

Bloom walked into a hilariously bad state of affairs.

 

No manager, no Sale, no E-Rod, no farm, told to cut payroll, not add it. Forced to trade the team's best player for whatever he could get.

 

Sometimes circumstances have to be looked at.