Chris Sale needs Tommy John Surgery

[a700hitter]

@jay_jaffe

Considering that industry insiders and armchair pitching coaches alike have been predicting a major arm injury for Chris Sale for most if not all of the past decade, you get exactly zero points for saying "I told you so" now.

All the more reason for DD not to have extended him unless top medical doctors gave him a clean bill of health -- not our crackpot medical staff of quacks.

[notin]

It will forever be a mystery how the docs could fully clear him for that contract, without even any 'medical language' such as we have seen in contracts with Drew, Lackey etc.

 

Maybe this kind of thing isn't always as easy as us fans like to think it is...

[SoxHop]

No apologies for trying to be optimistic. But kudos to you for getting something right for a change!

 

Maybe weighing a buck 60 at 6 foot tall and violent arm delivery should have been a factor. The red flags were there.

[oldtimer]

Maybe weighing a buck 60 at 6 foot tall and violent arm delivery should have been a factor. The red flags were there.

 

A number of us, including Kimmi, have questioned the sense of giving long term contracts to players over 30. That especially applies to pitchers who have a lot of mileage on them and the moreso when they have exhibited soreness in their arms and shoulders. Under DD, we went ahead with contracts of that type and it is probably what got him fired. I doubt if Bloom will make similar moves, but in the meantime, we will have to work through what is on the books. Sale may be able to come back from this in a year but he will be 32 and his arm will be a question mark. We will have the $48 mil from Price, whats left of Eovaldi and the remainder of the $145 mil from Sale when he gets back. Not an enviable situation.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Dennis Eckersly became a full-time closer at age 33, and pitched until he was 43. In that time he saved an average of 34 games per year, pitched in 58 games a year -- and here's the key: had an average of 61 innings pitched per year.

 

In his first five seasons exclusively as a reliever -- through age 37 -- Eck was a four-time All-Star with four Top 6 finishes in the Cy Young and MVP, each of which he won once.

 

Boston players and fans cheered when sore-armed Chris Sale strutted out of the bullpen to strikeout the last three batters of the 2018 World Series. Of course we'd all like to see him do that for seven innings per game again like in his prime, but closing (or opening or power-relieving) may be the only way he can ever again become elite...

[Bellhorn04]

Maybe Sale can duplicate what Lackey did post-TJS.

[Kimmi]

It was a pretty good contract if he was healthy, but I was doubtful about his health when he signed.

 

Fair statement.

[Kimmi]

Maybe this kind of thing isn't always as easy as us fans like to think it is...

 

Exactly. As much as we like to think we know more than those actually involved with the team, we don't.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't think there's a Red Sox fan alive who wasn't scratching their heads a little when they did the extension with Sale. I tried to have faith that the team had good medical info and knew what they were doing. Oh well.

[Kimmi]

A number of us, including Kimmi, have questioned the sense of giving long term contracts to players over 30. That especially applies to pitchers who have a lot of mileage on them and the moreso when they have exhibited soreness in their arms and shoulders. Under DD, we went ahead with contracts of that type and it is probably what got him fired. I doubt if Bloom will make similar moves, but in the meantime, we will have to work through what is on the books. Sale may be able to come back from this in a year but he will be 32 and his arm will be a question mark. We will have the $48 mil from Price, whats left of Eovaldi and the remainder of the $145 mil from Sale when he gets back. Not an enviable situation.

 

The curious thing is why GMs continue to sign players to insane contracts. And it is getting more and more insane every year.

 

I understand that Mookie is not Chris Sale, but the number of people who really want to sign Mookie to a 10+ year mega contract just blows my mind.

[Kimmi]

I don't think there's a Red Sox fan alive who wasn't scratching their heads a little when they did the extension with Sale. I tried to have faith that the team had good medical info and knew what they were doing. Oh well.

 

I was not scratching my head on that one. I would have liked the deal to be one year shorter, but I thought it was a good idea to extend Sale before he reached free agency. If Sale has pitched like vintage Sale, his price would have sky rocketed and we would have not been able to re-sign him. We then would have heard criticism over why we didn't lock Sale up in the spring.

 

Very similar to Beckett's extension.

[Bellhorn04]

The curious thing is why GMs continue to sign players to insane contracts. And it is getting more and more insane every year.

 

I understand that Mookie is not Chris Sale, but the number of people who really want to sign Mookie to a 10+ year mega contract just blows my mind.

 

And Mookie is looking for about 3 times as much as Sale.

[Bellhorn04]

I was not scratching my head on that one. I would have liked the deal to be one year shorter, but I thought it was a good idea to extend Sale before he reached free agency. If Sale has pitched like vintage Sale, his price would have sky rocketed and we would have not been able to re-sign him. We then would have heard criticism over why we didn't lock Sale up in the spring.

 

Very similar to Beckett's extension.

 

I agree that the deal itself was just fine - if he was healthy...

[TylerD]

Maybe Sale can duplicate what Lackey did post-TJS.

 

One can hope.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Maybe Sale can duplicate what Lackey did post-TJS.

 

Lackey post-TJ: age 34-38, avg. W-L 12-11, 3.57 ERA, 193 IP.

 

I think the best Lackey post-surgery stat that Red Sox fans would be happy to see with Sale is this: postseason games started -- 11... 5 wins, 2 losses, 2 rings.

[jacksonianmarch]

Lackey didn’t have a mysterious shoulder ailment that snapped him of velocity before hurting his elbow. I wonder if this long recovery will actually benefit Sale’s shoulder enough to maybe get stronger and return to prior velocity levels

[oldtimer]

Dennis Eckersly became a full-time closer at age 33, and pitched until he was 43. In that time he saved an average of 34 games per year, pitched in 58 games a year -- and here's the key: had an average of 61 innings pitched per year.

 

In his first five seasons exclusively as a reliever -- through age 37 -- Eck was a four-time All-Star with four Top 6 finishes in the Cy Young and MVP, each of which he won once.

 

Boston players and fans cheered when sore-armed Chris Sale strutted out of the bullpen to strikeout the last three batters of the 2018 World Series. Of course we'd all like to see him do that for seven innings per game again like in his prime, but closing (or opening or power-relieving) may be the only way he can ever again become elite...

 

Having Sale for 61 innings/year while getting Ace Starter pay is not a good deal, just better than not getting anything. I hope for the best but don't expect him to be the same guy who was great for us.

[S5Dewey]

Dennis Eckersly became a full-time closer at age 33, and pitched until he was 43. In that time he saved an average of 34 games per year, pitched in 58 games a year -- and here's the key: had an average of 61 innings pitched per year.

 

In his first five seasons exclusively as a reliever -- through age 37 -- Eck was a four-time All-Star with four Top 6 finishes in the Cy Young and MVP, each of which he won once.

 

Boston players and fans cheered when sore-armed Chris Sale strutted out of the bullpen to strikeout the last three batters of the 2018 World Series. Of course we'd all like to see him do that for seven innings per game again like in his prime, but closing (or opening or power-relieving) may be the only way he can ever again become elite...

 

This sounds like you're making a case for Sale to be our closer. That in itself may be a laudable goal but in order for a closer to be valuable the team has to be able to put him in a position to close it out. I don't see our team and current pitching staff being able to do that. IMO we NEED for him to come back as a starter. Unless he can do that he has little value to the team and it'll be another albatross contract.

[moonslav59]

It will all depend on sale and how he feels.... they won’t want to rush him back

 

There is no hurry, now.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

This sounds like you're making a case for Sale to be our closer. That in itself may be a laudable goal but in order for a closer to be valuable the team has to be able to put him in a position to close it out. I don't see our team and current pitching staff being able to do that. IMO we NEED for him to come back as a starter. Unless he can do that he has little value to the team and it'll be another albatross contract.

 

It already is, now that there's a possibility that Sale doesn't even pitch for Boston until 2022. We have no idea how his elbow responds with a grafted tendon from his wrist (or somewhere else), but even without surgery it was unreasonable to expect Sale's continued dominance as a workhorse through his 30s. He was already breaking down by the end of the last few seasons with various issues.

 

Like I said, of course we all want him back as a starter (the more innings pitched, the more batters retired, the higher the WAR value)... but at his salary, is just any level of effectiveness acceptable? As fans, we may have to accept that shorter stints -- whether as closer, opener or set-up man -- may be the only way we'll ever see an elite Chris Sale again.

 

Even if a team is mediocre, a great reliever can help boost its status: taking the pressure off the rest of the bullpen, and also allowing starters to pitch with confidence.

[Kimmi]

Dennis Eckersly became a full-time closer at age 33, and pitched until he was 43. In that time he saved an average of 34 games per year, pitched in 58 games a year -- and here's the key: had an average of 61 innings pitched per year.

 

In his first five seasons exclusively as a reliever -- through age 37 -- Eck was a four-time All-Star with four Top 6 finishes in the Cy Young and MVP, each of which he won once.

 

Boston players and fans cheered when sore-armed Chris Sale strutted out of the bullpen to strikeout the last three batters of the 2018 World Series. Of course we'd all like to see him do that for seven innings per game again like in his prime, but closing (or opening or power-relieving) may be the only way he can ever again become elite...

 

If Sale is going to be limited in innings, I'd prefer to make him an opener rather than a closer. He'd face the top of the order each game that he pitches, and he would know exactly when he's going to pitch, eliminating the possibility of having him warm up only to have him sit down without being used. Perhaps he could give us 3 innings as an opener, unless the sitting down between innings is part of the issue.

[Kimmi]

This sounds like you're making a case for Sale to be our closer. That in itself may be a laudable goal but in order for a closer to be valuable the team has to be able to put him in a position to close it out. I don't see our team and current pitching staff being able to do that. IMO we NEED for him to come back as a starter. Unless he can do that he has little value to the team and it'll be another albatross contract.

 

Obviously, getting Sale back as a 6-7 inning starter would have far more value than having him as a reliever. I agree, we need him to come back as a starter. That said, getting him back as an elite closer would be far better than not having him. Not worth the contract, no, but better than nothing.

[Kimmi]

It already is, now that there's a possibility that Sale doesn't even pitch for Boston until 2022. We have no idea how his elbow responds with a grafted tendon from his wrist (or somewhere else), but even without surgery it was unreasonable to expect Sale's continued dominance as a workhorse through his 30s. He was already breaking down by the end of the last few seasons with various issues.

 

Like I said, of course we all want him back as a starter (the more innings pitched, the more batters retired, the higher the WAR value)... but at his salary, is just any level of effectiveness acceptable? As fans, we may have to accept that shorter stints -- whether as closer, opener or set-up man -- may be the only way we'll ever see an elite Chris Sale again.

 

Even if a team is mediocre, a great reliever can help boost its status: taking the pressure off the rest of the bullpen, and also allowing starters to pitch with confidence.

 

 

Well said. I agree.

 

I've been somewhat following the conversation about service time, and this might have been discussed, but what about contract time?

 

If we miss all of 2020, would that year of the contract be added to the end of the contract? If a player is set to become a free agent at the end of 2020, would he now be contractually committed to the team until the end of 2021? If so, then that could be a win for the Red Sox if Sale is able to come back strong from the TJS.

[Bellhorn04]

[/b]

 

Well said. I agree.

 

I've been somewhat following the conversation about service time, and this might have been discussed, but what about contract time?

 

If we miss all of 2020, would that year of the contract be added to the end of the contract? If a player is set to become a free agent at the end of 2020, would he now be contractually committed to the team until the end of 2021? If so, then that could be a win for the Red Sox if Sale is able to come back strong from the TJS.

 

Mookie Betts is anxious to hear the answer to this too.

[notin]

Obviously players don’t want the Commissioner voiding all their contracts for 2020.

 

I do think MLB would be the safest sport to resume. Unlike the NBA, for the most part, players on the field are no where near each other. And any ball that touches the ground or any glove besides the pitcher or catcher is removed from play.

 

Fanless games? A possibility? It does give a distinct advantage to the Marlins...

[a700hitter]

Obviously players don’t want the Commissioner voiding all their contracts for 2020.

 

I do think MLB would be the safest sport to resume. Unlike the NBA, for the most part, players on the field are no where near each other. And any ball that touches the ground or any glove besides the pitcher or catcher is removed from play.

 

Fanless games? A possibility? It does give a distinct advantage to the Marlins...

If the season gets cancelled, I think this is an issue that ends up in litigation.

 

In 1994, when the season was cancelled, my recollection is that trades and signings got cancelled too. My recollection is that the Red Sox had signed/traded for John Wetteland and Sammy Sosa and that those transactions were cancelled.

[notin]

If the season gets cancelled, I think this is an issue that ends up in litigation.

 

In 1994, when the season was cancelled, my recollection is that trades and signings got cancelled too. My recollection is that the Red Sox had signed/traded for John Wetteland and Sammy Sosa and that those transactions were cancelled.

 

Also Kevin Appier.

 

 

I believe all three were free agents...

[a700hitter]

Also Kevin Appier.

 

 

I believe all three were free agents...

I think you are right.

[jacksonianmarch]

I don’t think you can cancel the contracts, but I bet you can toll them to 2021

[notin]

I don’t think you can cancel the contracts, but I bet you can toll them to 2021

 

The Commissioner does have the power to void them for 2020 and then extend them into the next year. Obviously this is only in the event of a national emergency...