Mookie Betts and David Price have been traded to Dodgers

[jung]

So is the recent news on Verdugo behind all this Maine horse bleep or has nobody noticed as yet that Verdugo is headed for the operating table before he does anything in a Red Sox uni. He has a stress fracture in his back. He will be operated on and of course start the season disabled.

 

Last I heard that was a possibility that has now turned into a certainty.

Edited February 16, 2020 by jung

[Elktonnick]

Elk doesn't have a great grasp of the payroll and tax part.

Oh and a Canadian really has a grasp of American tax law. While I haven't managed 200million dllr plus payroll. The payroll budget I did manage the last 17 years of my working career was in the 16 to 20 million dllr per year range. The program budget was considerably larger. So quit making the ad hominem attacks about things you know nothing about

BTW Henry made the move because he wanted to, not because he needed to.

[Bellhorn04]

Oh and a Canadian really has a grasp of American tax law. While I haven't managed 200million dllr plus payroll. The payroll budget I did manage the last 17 years of my working career was in the 16 to 20 million dllr per year range. The program budget was considerably larger. So quit making the ad hominem attacks about things you know nothing about

 

Wow, you're even sillier than I realized. This is about baseball luxury tax, not American tax law.

[Elktonnick]

Wow, you're even sillier than I realized. This is about baseball luxury tax, not American tax law.

 

Ad hominem attacks aren' t silly.

[Bellhorn04]

Ad hominem attacks aren' t silly.

 

And yet you're the one who thinks it's fine to mock a Canadian's knowledge of American tax law.

[Elktonnick]

And yet you're the one who thinks it's fine to mock a Canadian's knowledge of American tax law.

So are you knowledgeable on American Tax law?

[Bellhorn04]

So are you knowledgeable on American Tax law?

 

No, but there are other Canadian accountants who are. In any case it's irrelevant to the factors that motivated the Red Sox to trade Betts.

[Elktonnick]

No, but there are other Canadian accountants who are. In any case it's irrelevant to the factors that motivated the Red Sox to trade Betts.

On that we can agree. The Sox allegedly traded Betts to give Bloom flexibility to wheel and deal. It only makes baseball sense if Bloom is successful especially at getting pitching help and rebuilding the farm. So far no pitching help.

[notin]

On that we can agree. The Sox allegedly traded Betts to give Bloom flexibility to wheel and deal. It only makes baseball sense if Bloom is successful especially at getting pitching help and rebuilding the farm. So far no pitching help.

 

So if you acknowledge it was to “give flexibility,” you’re finally admitting the Sox were at their spending limits. Hence the need for a salary dump.

 

But, yes, pitching...

[Elktonnick]

So if you acknowledge it was to “give flexibility,” you’re finally admitting the Sox were at their spending limits. Hence the need for a salary dump.

 

But, yes, pitching...

 

No I don't admit that at all. What I admit is that was what the Red Sox alleged, which was what I posted. Your skill at analyzing the written word is really quite poor.

 

Moreover that would only make baseball sense if Bloom were to actually do what their alleged intentions are. Has any one seen yet any moves to improve pitching in any meaningful way at the major or minor league levels yet? I don't think so.

[moonslav59]

Getting out from under half of Price's remaining 3 years of his contract was a very important aspect of the trade. It should greatly affect our team for 3 years and maybe more. Bloom is known to work wonders with a winter spending budget of $16M or less, and a lot will depend on what he does with those savings, when we measure how well this deal works out. It's not really part of the deal, but ultimately, it works out that way. When we dumped Crawford, and to some extent Beckett, by including AGon in the mega deal with the Dodgers, the effect was we were able to sign Vic, Napoli & Dempster. We won a ring, largely based on those signings, but had we not, we'd likely be viewing that trade differently by now.

 

Waiting for the deadline to try and trade Betts and Price could certainly have worked out better, but it would have been a wild gamble. I seriously doubt we'd be able to reset the tax, something some here still don't this was a high need thing to do. It obviously was a mandate not a priority all along. If Price got hurt or struggle to start 2020, we'd be screwed. For all we know, we might have been forced to trade Bogey & Betts to reset at the deadline (saving us just $16M on the tax line).

 

The other part of the trade was the return. I'm fine with haggling over what we got and damaged goods and all, but it's not like we had multiple good or better offers on the table. The Padre offer looked like a joke. As great as Betts is and will be, we traded one year of control- ONE YEAR! We have set ourselves up to resign him after 2020- something we never would be able to do had we not reset. If we end up missing out on Betts, we'll still be set up to make a substantial rebuild through signings and trades that we could and would not have been able to do without resetting.

 

We got...

 

5 years of Verdugo (2 pre arb years): Even if he misses a year with a bad back, we still can get a lot of value from this guy. He's not a bust, IMO. All this crap about his character is conjecture, at this point. He may disappoint, but I feel, at worst, he gives us 2-3 WAR for 4-5 years: at best he gives us 4-6 WAR.

 

5 years of Downs: This guy could turn into a major gain. I realize it's speculation, but he's our #1 or 2 prospect according to every ranking service.

 

5 years of Wong: This guy has a lot of potential on offense but lacks a clear position. At worst, he may replace JD at DH someday while being a 3rd string catcher/utility depth option.

 

I seriously doubt we could have got a better package than this one. To say waiting would have been better is pure speculation. Sure, maybe we could have, but the money part of the equation looks very sketchy by July.

 

We NEEDED to RESET! I know that's just an opinion, but I sincerely think it was vital. I also think Henry and Bloom felt the same way.

 

Our extended future is much better off now, than before the trade. Our chances in 2020 took a big hit. I'm not denying that, and for those who felt we had a very good chance to win in 2020, I understand your frustration or anger, but let's give this deal some time. It's not the type of deal anyone can definitively judge 2 weeks after being made.

 

If Price bounces back and Verdugo flops, it may look bad. If Price sucks for 3 years, Verdugo and others do well, and we use the money saved to choose wisely, we may view this deal like the last Dodger dump trade- a huge success.

 

[Elktonnick]

Getting out from under half of Price's remaining 3 years of his contract was a very important aspect of the trade. It should greatly affect our team for 3 years and maybe more. Bloom is known to work wonders with a winter spending budget of $16M or less, and a lot will depend on what he does with those savings, when we measure how well this deal works out. It's not really part of the deal, but ultimately, it works out that way. When we dumped Crawford, and to some extent Beckett, by including AGon in the mega deal with the Dodgers, the effect was we were able to sign Vic, Napoli & Dempster. We won a ring, largely based on those signings, but had we not, we'd likely be viewing that trade differently by now.

 

Waiting for the deadline to try and trade Betts and Price could certainly have worked out better, but it would have been a wild gamble. I seriously doubt we'd be able to reset the tax, something some here still don't this was a high need thing to do. It obviously was a mandate not a priority all along. If Price got hurt or struggle to start 2020, we'd be screwed. For all we know, we might have been forced to trade Bogey & Betts to reset at the deadline (saving us just $16M on the tax line).

 

The other part of the trade was the return. I'm fine with haggling over what we got and damaged goods and all, but it's not like we had multiple good or better offers on the table. The Padre offer looked like a joke. As great as Betts is and will be, we traded one year of control- ONE YEAR! We have set ourselves up to resign him after 2020- something we never would be able to do had we not reset. If we end up missing out on Betts, we'll still be set up to make a substantial rebuild through signings and trades that we could and would not have been able to do without resetting.

 

We got...

 

5 years of Verdugo (2 pre arb years): Even if he misses a year with a bad back, we still can get a lot of value from this guy. He's not a bust, IMO. All this crap about his character is conjecture, at this point. He may disappoint, but I feel, at worst, he gives us 2-3 WAR for 4-5 years: at best he gives us 4-6 WAR.

 

5 years of Downs: This guy could turn into a major gain. I realize it's speculation, but he's our #1 or 2 prospect according to every ranking service.

 

5 years of Wong: This guy has a lot of potential on offense but lacks a clear position. At worst, he may replace JD at DH someday while being a 3rd string catcher/utility depth option.

 

I seriously doubt we could have got a better package than this one. To say waiting would have been better is pure speculation. Sure, maybe we could have, but the money part of the equation looks very sketchy by July.

 

We NEEDED to RESET! I know that's just an opinion, but I sincerely think it was vital. I also think Henry and Bloom felt the same way.

 

Our extended future is much better off now, than before the trade. Our chances in 2020 took a big hit. I'm not denying that, and for those who felt we had a very good chance to win in 2020, I understand your frustration or anger, but let's give this deal some time. It's not the type of deal anyone can definitively judge 2 weeks after being made.

 

If Price bounces back and Verdugo flops, it may look bad. If Price sucks for 3 years, Verdugo and others do well, and we use the money saved to choose wisely, we may view this deal like the last Dodger dump trade- a huge success.

 

That is a fair summary of the situation. I do quibble with the assumption that the club needed to resett. By their own admission, the FO said that was merely a goal not a necessity.

The problem is that the Red Sox defrauded all their customers who bought season tickets based on the statement that they were going to make every effort to retain and resign Betts when clearly they had no intention of doing so.

Finally I am really pissed that Henry decided to tank the 2020 season.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Elktonnick

[Elktonnick]

The following is the title of an interesting article in the Athletic posted on Feb 15 Buckley: Baggage-laden Alex Verdugo arrives in the Fenway spotlight facing questions about more than his play

[moonslav59]

That is a fair summary of the situation. I do quibble with the assumption that the club needed to resett. By their own admission, the FO said that was merely a goal not a necessity.

The problem is that the Red Sox defrauded all their customers who bought season tickets based on the statement that they were going to make every effort to retain and resign Betts when clearly they had no intention of doing so.

Finally I am really passed that Henry decided to tank the 2020 season.

 

They needed to reset, IMO. Maybe the choice was reset, now or after 2020, and if that was the case, it seems now was the better choice, again, IMO. (Improve for 3+ years vs just one year-2020- not that 2020 would be an improvement over 2019 on paper- it clearly would not be unless we spent over the $40M line again.)

 

They likely searched for ways to reset without trading Betts, and either there was no way or the choices were so horrible, trading Betts became the only viable option.

 

If season ticket holders really felt like there was no way Betts was being traded based on a few statements that were contrary to other statements, and you want to call it a "defrauding," I won't argue with that point. I, for one, knew all along a reset was highly probable and that trading Price alone was not going to get us there. Trading Price and not giving JBJ a contract might have, but we'd have not a penny to spend on 2020 and still reset. No Perex, no Peraza and no Pillar. You think we'd win inn 2020 with Betts and no other holes filled?

 

Sure, we'd have a better chance than now, but it's not idiotic to do what Bloom did. He greatly improved the outlook for 2021, 2022 and beyond- both financially and physically. Even if every player we got back for Betts flops, the $16M we saved on Price should make us better in 2021 & 2022.

 

I know the odds are very long we bring back Betts, but they are better now than had we kept him and not reset.

 

If we miss out on Betts this coming winter, my hope is we spend well and get back to the top much sooner than had we waited. It's a valid position to hold, but no position can be proven as right as of now.

[Elktonnick]

They needed to reset, IMO. Maybe the choice was reset, now or after 2020, and if that was the case, it seems now was the better choice, again, IMO. (Improve for 3+ years vs just one year-2020- not that 2020 would be an improvement over 2019 on paper- it clearly would not be unless we spent over the $40M line again.)

 

They likely searched for ways to reset without trading Betts, and either there was no way or the choices were so horrible, trading Betts became the only viable option.

 

If season ticket holders really felt like there was no way Betts was being traded based on a few statements that were contrary to other statements, and you want to call it a "defrauding," I won't argue with that point. I, for one, knew all along a reset was highly probable and that trading Price alone was not going to get us there. Trading Price and not giving JBJ a contract might have, but we'd have not a penny to spend on 2020 and still reset. No Perex, no Peraza and no Pillar. You think we'd win inn 2020 with Betts and no other holes filled?

 

Sure, we'd have a better chance than now, but it's not idiotic to do what Bloom did. He greatly improved the outlook for 2021, 2022 and beyond- both financially and physically. Even if every player we got back for Betts flops, the $16M we saved on Price should make us better in 2021 & 2022.

 

I know the odds are very long we bring back Betts, but they are better now than had we kept him and not reset.

 

If we miss out on Betts this coming winter, my hope is we spend well and get back to the top much sooner than had we waited. It's a valid position to hold, but no position can be proven as right as of now.

 

“We need him to be healthy to see what kind of player we have and the kind of player he knows he is,” Roenicke said. I see the new Red Sox interim manager is channeling Nancy Pelosi when they passed Obamacare years back. What could go wrong!

[moonslav59]

“We need him to be healthy to see what kind of player we have and the kind of player he knows he is,” Roenicke said. I see the new Red Sox interim manager is channeling Nancy Pelosi when they passed Obamacare years back. What could go wrong!

 

Let's not get political.

 

I'd still rather have Verdugo with no Downs or Wong or any Price salary relief than a comp pick after the 2nd or 4th rounds.

 

Sure, Verdugo could flop and that comp pick could be a great one, but the odds are greater Verdugo adds more value.

 

I'm glad we didn't trade for Myers or wait to the deadline- like we're still waiting for Trump's healthcare plan that will "greatly improve coverage, lower drug prices, protect existing conditions, cost less and let us all choose any doctor we want." (Ooops, did I say that out loud?)

[a700hitter]

“We need him to be healthy to see what kind of player we have and the kind of player he knows he is,” Roenicke said. I see the new Red Sox interim manager is channeling Nancy Pelosi when they passed Obamacare years back. What could go wrong!

Pelosi’s back is healthier than Verdugo’s.

[Elktonnick]

Let's not get political.

 

I'd still rather have Verdugo with no Downs or Wong or any Price salary relief than a comp pick after the 2nd or 4th rounds.

 

Sure, Verdugo could flop and that comp pick could be a great one, but the odds are greater Verdugo adds more value.

 

I'm glad we didn't trade for Myers or wait to the deadline- like we're still waiting for Trump's healthcare plan that will "greatly improve coverage, lower drug prices, protect existing conditions, cost less and let us all choose any doctor we want." (Ooops, did I say that out loud?)

 

I am not being political but Roenicke's statement is not one which is meant to inspire confidence.

[moonslav59]

I am not being political but Roenicke's statement is not one which is meant to inspire confidence.

 

No,it wasn't, or it was meant to temper expectations.

 

Nobody is happy about Verdugo's health concerns, and I'm hoping the Sox medical staff knew what they were doing. (I'm not sure what I base that hope on with their record.)

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

My opinions -- that means no basis of facts, just what I have been sensing:

 

1). a reset in '20 was necessary for '21 and beyond (but I wish they could've traded anyone else but Betts to get there).

2). there wasn't any other way to get rid of even half of Price's contract but to include Betts in the deal

3). the best possible way to re-sign Mookie would've been to keep him -- and keep negotiating -- straight through free agency

4). someone in the Sox organization has first- or second-hand knowledge that Mookie was set on leaving Boston via free agency

5). the Sox had a good chance at a rebound season in '20 -- riding Betts' salary drive -- and as a fan I am very disappointed I won't get a chance to watch that

6). a). in the best interests of optimism, '20 could still be good... but . on the side of realism, '20 could quickly turn into a debacle (or just a continuation of the offseason havoc)

7). if 6b. occurs, more veterans will be traded, the Sox will be unrecognizable, and the rebuild back to contention will take more time than fans here think...

8). ...because "worsts to firsts" are rare MLB events -- but 4ths to 2nds not so much, which makes staying somewhat competitive more important for our entertainment purposes.

9). it will interesting to see how much of the savings from not signing Betts are spread out and invested in "sustained long-term success" over the next decade -- or if the Sox just wind up blowing the whole $300 to $400 million on cumulative, inferior players in the next two or three years.

[Elktonnick]

My opinions -- that means no basis of facts, just what I have been sensing:

 

1). a reset in '20 was necessary for '21 and beyond (but I wish they could've traded anyone else but Betts to get there).

2). there wasn't any other way to get rid of even half of Price's contract but to include Betts in the deal

3). the best possible way to re-sign Mookie would've been to keep him -- and keep negotiating -- straight through free agency

4). someone in the Sox organization has first- or second-hand knowledge that Mookie was set on leaving Boston via free agency

5). the Sox had a good chance at a rebound season in '20 -- riding Betts' salary drive -- and as a fan I am very disappointed I won't get a chance to watch that

6). a). in the best interests of optimism, '20 could still be good... but . on the side of realism, '20 could quickly turn into a debacle (or just a continuation of the offseason havoc)

7). if 6b. occurs, more veterans will be traded, the Sox will be unrecognizable, and the rebuild back to contention will take more time than fans here think...

8). ...because "worsts to firsts" are rare MLB events -- but 4ths to 2nds not so much, which makes staying somewhat competitive more important for our entertainment purposes.

9). it will interesting to see how much of the savings from not signing Betts are spread out and invested in "sustained long-term success" over the next decade -- or if the Sox just wind up blowing the whole $300 to $400 million on cumulative, inferior players in the next two or three years.

 

Nbr 9 is really at the heart of the issue, now isn't it?

[moonslav59]

Nbr 9 is really at the heart of the issue, now isn't it?

 

Yes, but on top of that, we have $16M to spend (and to replace) Price and some hope we'll get something from 2 or 3 from Verdugo, Downs or Wong.

 

[moonslav59]

I remember people being upset with Beckett being part of the AGon trade. The Crawford dump was hailed by all, but Beckett was borderline.

 

He was owed $17M x 3 from 2012 to 2014. While that's not Price money, it was a lot in 2021.

 

I'm not saying Price will duplicate what Josh did after the trade, but Beckett, who was 32 when traded, went on to go 8-14 3.39 (106 ERA+) in just 202 IP in 2.3 seasons with LA. He retired after 2014.

 

Many of us who were okay with the Price signing and those who loved the signing knew the last 3 years might be sketchy. I realize we are still paying Price $16M x 3 to pitch elsewhere. That sucks, but we got out of those last 3 years and gained $16M x 3 to spend. (Also, the reset saves millions.)

[Elktonnick]

I remember people being upset with Beckett being part of the AGon trade. The Crawford dump was hailed by all, but Beckett was borderline.

 

He was owed $17M x 3 from 2012 to 2014. While that's not Price money, it was a lot in 2021.

 

I'm not saying Price will duplicate what Josh did after the trade, but Beckett, who was 32 when traded, went on to go 8-14 3.39 (106 ERA+) in just 202 IP in 2.3 seasons with LA. He retired after 2014.

 

Many of us who were okay with the Price signing and those who loved the signing knew the last 3 years might be sketchy. I realize we are still paying Price $16M x 3 to pitch elsewhere. That sucks, but we got out of those last 3 years and gained $16M x 3 to spend. (Also, the reset saves millions.)

 

Unless Bloom takes advantage of it, it is all for naught.

[moonslav59]

Unless Bloom takes advantage of it, it is all for naught.

 

Well, he could bomb on the $16M x 3, but the prospects could all do well and make the deal a good one.

 

It's good to see you have a sliver of hope things might work out.

[Elktonnick]

Well, he could bomb on the $16M x 3, but the prospects could all do well and make the deal a good one.

 

It's good to see you have a sliver of hope things might work out.

 

Oh things will work out...… eventually. I just don't have 86 years to wait.

[moonslav59]

Oh things will work out...… eventually. I just don't have 86 years to wait.

 

To me, the plan looks like we may stay semi-competitive in 2020, get better in 2021 (maybe get lucky) but be back in the top 3-5 contenders by 2022 and beyond. I'm assuming we go back to spending near or above the tax line again.

 

Verdugo, Downs and/or Wong may all be a part of those teams. The $16M opened up for the next 3 years should help. Resigning Betts or opening up his contract money for other signings should help, too.

 

Will it be enough to replace Betts? Only time will tell, and I'm not talking 86 years or even 8.6 years.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I never wanted Price, but I was all in on Eovaldi and still expect him to be an All-Star someday. I know, he'd have to pitch an entire half-season without injury -- this year would be a really good time for that...

 

I'm still optimistic -- it's Spring Training, when every team has dreams. But if the Sox tank, can we trust Bloom to at least rush a few prospects up to the show in the second-half -- to give them and us exposure to the future? That's the fun of a fan of an also-ran...

[moonslav59]

I never wanted Price, but I was all in on Eovaldi and still expect him to be an All-Star someday. I know, he'd have to pitch an entire half-season without injury -- this year would be a really good time for that...

 

I'm still optimistic -- it's Spring Training, when every team has dreams. But if the Sox tank, can we trust Bloom to at least rush a few prospects up to the show in the second-half -- to give them and us exposure to the future? That's the fun of a fan of an also-ran...

 

I haven't given the 2020 team much of a chance, even before the Betts & Price trade, but I'm going to enjoy watching every game. We still have a very good offense, some decent pitchers and a lot of young players to follow.

[Larry Cook]

I haven't given the 2020 team much of a chance, even before the Betts & Price trade, but I'm going to enjoy watching every game. We still have a very good offense, some decent pitchers and a lot of young players to follow.

 

The season is a marathon not a sprint. Anything can happen along the way and health trumps everything!

 

So maybe sale’s arm does not fall off. Maybe Rodriguez does not take a step back, maybe eavoldi’s cutter comes back,

 

That’s why they play the games,