Wins Above Jack Morris

[moonslav59]

There's like a thousand different criteria for getting in.

[mvp 78]

Jack Morris is a perfect example of what people mean when they say it's not supposed to be the Hall of the Very Good.

 

I always feel a little better when players worse than Jim Rice get in.

[mvp 78]

Honestly, longevity is a s***** argument for HOF candidacy. I’d rather a guy with a great 10 years get in than a guy with a good 20 years.

[notin]

Honestly, longevity is a s***** argument for HOF candidacy. I’d rather a guy with a great 10 years get in than a guy with a good 20 years.

 

Agreed. They let Sandy Koufax In despite his short reign of (utter) dominance, but usually they prefer a longer career. But why Koufax but not Lefty O’Doul?

 

And when do they decide Dale Murphy was good enough?

 

And really - WTF is this whole FIFTEEN TIMES on the ballot thing? So a player isn’t good enough 14 times, does absolutely nothing, and is now good enough?

[notin]

There's like a thousand different criteria for getting in.

 

No. There’s one criteria justified by 1,000 different excuses...

[moonslav59]

No. There’s one criteria justified by 1,000 different excuses...

What if Blyleven was 5th in Ks and also 5th in BBs? Would he still belong?

[notin]

What if Blyleven was 5th in Ks and also 5th in BBs? Would he still belong?

 

Nolan Ryan is first in K’s and first in BB’s.

 

Pete Rose is first in hits and first in outs.

 

Cy Young is first in wins and first in losses.

 

They all belong (Yes, Rose does.)

 

So yes, that shouldn’t effect Blyleven, who is 29th in BB allowed..,

[moonslav59]

No. There’s one criteria justified by 1,000 different excuses...

 

Nolan Ryan is first in K’s and first in BB’s.

 

Pete Rose is first in hits and first in outs.

 

Cy Young is first in wins and first in losses.

 

They all belong (Yes, Rose does.)

 

So yes, that shouldn’t effect Blyleven, who is 29th in BB allowed..,

 

I'm fine with Blyleven being in, but it's for longevity- mostly. I'm not big on the value of Ks over other types of outs, but Bert was dominant for a short time and also very good for a long time. Giving 2 decades to your team certainly has value as does 8-10 years of total dominance- like Pedro.

The problems arise when everyone has their own criteria or bias, and then they point to someone in HOF who has worse numbers than your guy.

[mvp 78]

Agreed. They let Sandy Koufax In despite his short reign of (utter) dominance, but usually they prefer a longer career. But why Koufax but not Lefty O’Doul?

 

And when do they decide Dale Murphy was good enough?

 

And really - WTF is this whole FIFTEEN TIMES on the ballot thing? So a player isn’t good enough 14 times, does absolutely nothing, and is now good enough?

It’s just 10 now I think.

[mvp 78]

The biggest thing is to stop letting the media have 100% of the vote.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Honestly, longevity is a s***** argument for HOF candidacy. I’d rather a guy with a great 10 years get in than a guy with a good 20 years.

 

This is where I am, as well. I'm into stats -- it's part of what makes being a fan fun -- but as far as enshrinement, I always favor a guy who dominates over a compiler.

 

That being said, and back to pitching, I think the most underrated stat is Innings Pitched. Leaders in IP induce opponents to make the most outs -- in a game, season, postseason series or decade. The leader in IP is the guy that your team wants on the mound with the ball. I looked again back to 1950, and every decade leader in Innings Pitched made the Hall (including the entire Top Ten from the 70s)... until this century.

 

Then we have IP 2000-2009: 1. Livan (Livan likes his money) Hernandez, 2. Javier Vazquez, 3. Buehrle, 4. Zito, 5. Moyer, 6. Suppan. I guess PEDs really battered the arms before testing...

Edited November 27, 2019 by 5GoldGloves:OF,75

[notin]

It’s just 10 now I think.

 

Honestly, why is it more than one?

[Bellhorn04]

This is where I am, as well. I'm into stats -- it's part of what makes being a fan fun -- but as far as enshrinement, I always favor a guy who dominates over a compiler.

 

They both matter, really.

[Bellhorn04]

Honestly, why is it more than one?

 

Because this way creates more interest and debate and all that - the entertainment factor.

[mvp 78]

Honestly, why is it more than one?

 

Because baseball writers are petty *******s.

[mvp 78]

This is where I am, as well. I'm into stats -- it's part of what makes being a fan fun -- but as far as enshrinement, I always favor a guy who dominates over a compiler.

 

That being said, and back to pitching, I think the most underrated stat is Innings Pitched. Leaders in IP induce opponents to make the most outs -- in a game, season, postseason series or decade. The leader in IP is the guy that your team wants on the mound with the ball. I looked again back to 1950, and every decade leader in Innings Pitched made the Hall (including the entire Top Ten from the 70s)... until this century.

 

Then we have IP 2000-2009: 1. Livan (Livan likes his money) Hernandez, 2. Javier Vazquez, 3. Buehrle, 4. Zito, 5. Moyer, 6. Suppan. I guess PEDs really battered the arms before testing...

 

I’d take your top 5 over Morris.

[notin]

I’d take your top 5 over Morris.

 

Moyer over Morris?

 

Moyer is the ultimate compiler. He pitched forever with only a couple dominant years. While he never actually reached the point where his age was a bigger number than the speed of his fastball, he probably had the smallest gap between the two numbers in MLB history...

[mvp 78]

Moyer over Morris?

 

Moyer is the ultimate compiler. He pitched forever with only a couple dominant years. While he never actually reached the point where his age was a bigger number than the speed of his fastball, he probably had the smallest gap between the two numbers in MLB history...

 

Moyer > Morris

[notin]

Moyer > Morris

 

While I don’t put Morris in the Hall, I do put him ahead of Jamie Moyer...

[Bellhorn04]

Moyer > Morris

 

Now your madcap sense of humor is showing.

[mvp 78]

Now your madcap sense of humor is showing.

 

Morris got luckier with his lower BABIP.

[mvp 78]

Also -50 fWAR to Morris (facial wins above replacement) due to bad mustache and complexion. Even VA would agree with that!

[Bellhorn04]

Also -50 fWAR to Morris (facial wins above replacement) due to bad mustache and complexion. Even VA would agree with that!

 

Moyer is no matinee idol either. But both are good-looking next to Randy Johnson.

[mvp 78]

Moyer is no matinee idol either. But both are good-looking next to Randy Johnson.

 

Moyer’s 89 Topps card certainly could have made the cover of Big Bopper magazine back in the day.