Mookie and Andrew Mcutchen .....

[moonslav59]

The big issue with his early years was a lack of anyone behind him. From 1998 thru 2001, the only starting pitchers besides Pedro to throw over 140 IP were Mark Portugal and Pat Rapp, both in 1998. Yay! Such quality arms. Remember the days of "Portugal and Rapp make the rotation crap."

 

It wan't until 2002, when the Sox converted Lowe, added Burkett, and stopped moving Wakefield around that they had a true starting rotation capable of not only pitching well but also eating a lot of innings...

 

Then, it wasn't until we added a "second ace" in Schilling that we took the final step.

 

1967- only Lonborg

1975- only Tiant

1986- only Clemens

2004- Pedro & Schilling

2007- Schilling & Beckett

2013- Lester & Lackey

2018- Sale & Price

[Bellhorn04]

Then, it wasn't until we added a "second ace" in Schilling that we took the final step.

 

1967- only Lonborg

1975- only Tiant

1986- only Clemens

2004- Pedro & Schilling

2007- Schilling & Beckett

2013- Lester & Lackey

2018- Sale & Price

 

You just nailed down the key to postseason success!

[moonslav59]

You just nailed down the key to postseason success!

 

It also helps to have solid #3s and 4's, but the one-two punch has been the major factor in rings or no rings for the Sox.

 

That's one reason I'm hardly ever for upgrading the rotation at the 4 or 5 slot.

 

Upgrade at the 1 or 2 and everyone else gets knocked down one slot.

[notin]

Then, it wasn't until we added a "second ace" in Schilling that we took the final step.

 

1967- only Lonborg

1975- only Tiant

1986- only Clemens

2004- Pedro & Schilling

2007- Schilling & Beckett

2013- Lester & Lackey

2018- Sale & Price

 

What was wrong with Bruce Hurst in 1986? He was a passed ball and a groundball away from being World Series MVP...

[mvp 78]

You just nailed down the key to postseason success!

 

Hurst was great in 86.

[moonslav59]

What was wrong with Bruce Hurst in 1986? He was a passed ball and a groundball away from being World Series MVP...

 

He had a damned good 1986 season and a few more afterwards, but he was not really ever an ace or "second ace" with Boston.

 

I guess one could argue Lackey was no "second ace" either, but leading up to those WS years, here's what the two had done:

 

ERA/ IP/YR

Hurst:

4.51/229/ '85

3.92/218/ '84

4.09/211/ '83

5.77/117/ '82

(Nobody thought of him as ace material going into 1986.)

 

Lackey before acquiring him

3.83/176 '09

3.75/163 '08

3.01/224 '07 (led AL in ERA)

3.56/218 '06

3.44/209 '04

 

Lackey w/BOS before 2013:

DNP '12

6.41/160 '11

4.40/215 '10

[notin]

He had a damned good 1986 season and a few more afterwards, but he was not really ever an ace or "second ace" with Boston.

 

Sure he was. In those days, the Sox rotation was really called “Clemens and Hurst and expect the worst.”

[moonslav59]

Sure he was. In those days, the Sox rotation was really called “Clemens and Hurst and expect the worst.”

 

Not before 1986.

[cp176]

there was a time in his mid to late 20's that Nomar was viewed by Red Sox fans exactly the same way we now drool for Mook.

 

CP - if Mookie is not on the 2018 Red Sox and a league average hitter/defender is playing RF all season - do we still have a parade?

i say yes. we coasted the division and pitching and "lesser players" stepped up offensively in the postseason.

 

I cannot answer the unanswerable question Slash. Who knows - As for the Mookie Nomar controversy, as good as Nomar was in his prime, I'm still taking Mookie. Better in every facet of the game. it is all good though. We are fortunate to have seen them both.

[cp176]

there was a time in his mid to late 20's that Nomar was viewed by Red Sox fans exactly the same way we now drool for Mook.

 

CP - if Mookie is not on the 2018 Red Sox and a league average hitter/defender is playing RF all season - do we still have a parade?

i say yes. we coasted the division and pitching and "lesser players" stepped up offensively in the postseason.

 

Slasher - would the Sox have won in '86 if Stapleton had replaced Billy Buck? It certainly would have been the right move to make i think, but no one knows whether or not we would have won.

[moonslav59]

I cannot answer the unanswerable question Slash. Who knows - As for the Mookie Nomar controversy, as good as Nomar was in his prime, I'm still taking Mookie. Better in every facet of the game. it is all good though. We are fortunate to have seen them both.

 

I totally agree, although one could argue Nomar hit for better BA. (.357 and .372 in two seasons and .313 overall/ .323 with BOS)

[Bellhorn04]

CP - if Mookie is not on the 2018 Red Sox and a league average hitter/defender is playing RF all season - do we still have a parade?

i say yes. we coasted the division and pitching and "lesser players" stepped up offensively in the postseason.

 

OK, I'll play.

 

We won the division by 8 games. Mookie was 8.9 Wins Above Average.

 

At the very least, we would have to play hard all the way just to win the division.

[Slasher9]

Slasher - would the Sox have won in '86 if Stapleton had replaced Billy Buck? It certainly would have been the right move to make i think, but no one knows whether or not we would have won.

 

i dont think i am the only Red Sox fan that never ever blamed Buckner for what transpired Game 6 in 1986. that game was blown before that groundball got past him.

for Slasher:

culprit #1: Roger Clemens. awww poor baby thought he was getting a blister on his wittle finger and pulled himself from the game.

culprit #2: Rich Gedman. forget all the bloody singles they got. the win % before the passed ball 81%. after the passed ball 40%.

culprit #3&4 (tie): schiraldi / Stanley

culprit #5: McNamara

culprit #6: evans error in the 5th. game doesnt even go extras if no error.

[Slasher9]

OK, I'll play.

 

We won the division by 8 games. Mookie was 8.9 Wins Above Average.

 

At the very least, we would have to play hard all the way just to win the division.

 

fair. but maybe we just dont "coast" for september. a few more innings for the regulars.

[Slasher9]

also...thank you for using WAA instead of WAR.

[Bellhorn04]

also...thank you for using WAA instead of WAR.

 

I hoped you would appreciate that.

[notin]

But I’m hurt you didn’t use WAFL...

[cp176]

i dont think i am the only Red Sox fan that never ever blamed Buckner for what transpired Game 6 in 1986. that game was blown before that groundball got past him.

for Slasher:

culprit #1: Roger Clemens. awww poor baby thought he was getting a blister on his wittle finger and pulled himself from the game.

culprit #2: Rich Gedman. forget all the bloody singles they got. the win % before the passed ball 81%. after the passed ball 40%.

culprit #3&4 (tie): schiraldi / Stanley

culprit #5: McNamara

culprit #6: evans error in the 5th. game doesnt even go extras if no error.

 

When that event happened, i was as disappointed probably as much as I could have been. I could not believe it but I not for one minute ever game any blame to Billy Buck. I wish that he had made it but if not for him, much like I feel about Mookie we would not have even been in that game. he had had a hell of a season.

[notin]

When that event happened, i was as disappointed probably as much as I could have been. I could not believe it but I not for one minute ever game any blame to Billy Buck. I wish that he had made it but if not for him, much like I feel about Mookie we would not have even been in that game. he had had a hell of a season.

 

Are you talking about Mookie Betts here?

 

It gets confusing because the Buckner groundball was hit by Mookie Wilson...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Then, it wasn't until we added a "second ace" in Schilling that we took the final step.

 

1967- only Lonborg

1975- only Tiant

1986- only Clemens

2004- Pedro & Schilling

2007- Schilling & Beckett

2013- Lester & Lackey

2018- Sale & Price

 

I agree with your premise, but might debate the second aces or missing number twos... though I'm sure you considered guys like Rick Wise, DiceK, and Buchholz in '75, '07 and '13. They were all solid and at least 2-worthy in the regular season -- Wise won one more than Luis and had virtually identical numbers; DiceK was the legendary ace of Japan and actually the Sox top winner in '07/08; Clay began 9-0 and was the Sox All-Star pitcher before getting hurt. I'd include Wakefield, too, but they kept moving him to the pen and even left him off the '07 WS roster.

 

The guys on your list were no doubt aces (including Lackey as an Angel) and most turned it up a notch in the postseason. On that tangent, I have to agree with posters about Hurst, but then I'd also add Eovaldi -- who I'd argue was Boston's most valuable postseason pitcher in '18.

 

Having two horses is hard to beat, and looking at those years I also think starting depth was the difference in getting to the World Series (as opposed to other division winners or wild cards who fell short). Number three guys like Spaceman, Oil Can, DLowe, and Porcello were probably better than most number twos on all those Sox also-rans.

 

That's all. I just like researching to kickstart the offseason... before they actually make some moves.

[moonslav59]

I agree with your premise, but might debate the second aces or missing number twos... though I'm sure you considered guys like Rick Wise, DiceK, and Buchholz in '75, '07 and '13. They were all solid and at least 2-worthy in the regular season -- Wise won one more than Luis and had virtually identical numbers; DiceK was the legendary ace of Japan and actually the Sox top winner in '07/08; Clay began 9-0 and was the Sox All-Star pitcher before getting hurt. I'd include Wakefield, too, but they kept moving him to the pen and even left him off the '07 WS roster.

 

The guys on your list were no doubt aces (including Lackey as an Angel) and most turned it up a notch in the postseason. On that tangent, I have to agree with posters about Hurst, but then I'd also add Eovaldi -- who I'd argue was Boston's most valuable postseason pitcher in '18.

 

Having two horses is hard to beat, and looking at those years I also think starting depth was the difference in getting to the World Series (as opposed to other division winners or wild cards who fell short). Number three guys like Spaceman, Oil Can, DLowe, and Porcello were probably better than most number twos on all those Sox also-rans.

 

That's all. I just like researching to kickstart the offseason... before they actually make some moves.

 

My point was about Sox teams with 2 established aces or "second aces" not years where two pitchers happened to pitch like aces.

 

One could argue Hurst became a second ace in 1986, but he clearly was not an established ace when the season began.

 

Wise, Dice-K, Buch and Eovaldi were never considered aces. They may have a had a season here or there that looked close to ace material, but that's it.

 

Yes, having solid 3's and 4's helped, too, but to me, we only ever won when we had two established aces.

 

Now, we had several years where we did not win with two aces, but we've never won without having two.

 

(The Lackey as an ace debate is legitimate, since he had gone several mediocre years between being an ace with LAA and that 2013 season, but he clearly was an ace at one point.)

[mvp 78]

Lackey is the downfall of whatever argument you are trying to make.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I think I get it now: guys who were considered aces in the MLB, most before even playing for Boston. Lackey and Price never threw like aces in Boston... except for one postseason each, when it counted most.

 

Lonborg was only an ace for one season, then got hurt... but a Cy Young winner throwing one-hitters in the World Series is legit.

 

The outlier -- as far as equating recognition with reputation -- has to be Porcello, who even when he won the Cy was never considered an ace. Though regarding depth, he was arguably the Sox third best starter/rover in the '18 postseason, just ahead of Sale.

[moonslav59]

Lackey is the downfall of whatever argument you are trying to make.

 

Yes, I mentioned that it could be argued he had pitched his way out of being called an ace prior to 2013.

 

However, guys like Rick Wise, Hurst and Dice-K and others on teams that never made it to the WS (Lowe/Burkett in 2003) were never considered an ace going into their WS seasons.

[jacksonianmarch]

Lackey was an ace in Anaheim. He was good year 1. Horrible year 2. Missed year 3. Years 4 and 5 were good to great