A Realistic View at 2020: Part I

[notin]

Hey I was not the one who went so far out on the limb by claiming Jeter was the worst that I couldn't get back.

 

At least he had a position. So far your contributions have all been “other people said so.” And while I agree about the imperfections in his data, any point that UZR suffers from the same flaws as the overwhelming majority of baseball data is also met with “other people said so.”

 

I can see why you view sarcasm as a valued debate technique. Certainly over logic

[Elktonnick]

Now, I know you're lying.

That is bull if you knew me you would know it was the truth. But hey this your style when people don't bow down and accept your argument you get nasty.

[Elktonnick]

At least he had a position. So far your contributions have all been “other people said so.” And while I agree about the imperfections in his data, any point that UZR suffers from the same flaws as the overwhelming majority of baseball data is also met with “other people said so.”

 

I can see why you view sarcasm as a valued debate technique. Certainly over logic

 

I back my opinions up with facts and the valued opinions of others. Logic is something I find is something that is in short supply.

[notin]

I back my opinions up with facts and the valued opinions of others. Logic is something I find is something that is in short supply.

 

I’ve noticed.

 

Nothing wrong with expert testimony. But really the majority of yours is incomplete and questionable. Sure, Torre played Jeter a lot, but was it because of his offense or his defense? Worth noting, Jeter was once benched for an offensive slump. Wonder why Torre didn’t leave his glove in the lineup.

 

Really your expert sources have the same flaws as moon’s...

[kenmeister]

Steven Wright and all his issues also put them in a bind before last season even began. I think they were hoping he'd be the swingman with All-Star stuff, with spot starts and long relief, and you could sense the pitching staff, at least, was not happy with his suspension. When an accountable guy like Porcello makes comments (answering reporter questions about it), you know it's a portent.

 

Great point! He would have made a huge difference had he been healthy and not suspended.

 

4-5 days until we find out whether Sale has a hope of playing in 2020 ...

 

(And I agree with the other guy who said take the Jeter talk off to another thread.)

[Bellhorn04]

Great point! He would have made a huge difference had he been healthy and not suspended.

 

4-5 days until we find out whether Sale has a hope of playing in 2020 ...

 

(And I agree with the other guy who said take the Jeter talk off to another thread.)

 

The Sale news could have a big impact on the team's approach to the 2020 season.

[notin]

The Sale news could have a big impact on the team's approach to the 2020 season.

 

Slight understatement. It will have a major impact. It’s arguably the most important outside factor remaining...

[moonslav59]

I find this position hard to swallow. The same people do NOT watch every play of every game. There just aren't hours enough in the day to do that. Since Notin has already established that everyone has a bias one cannot simply assume that all these trained people are seeing things the same way.

 

No, but they rotate the people, and the people are trained and calibrated. They watch the game looking at just defense. I trust them over me not even watching the game. Of course, there are flaws, but it better than the flaw of me not even seeing who I'm rating or ranking.

[moonslav59]

That is bull if you knew me you would know it was the truth. But hey this your style when people don't bow down and accept your argument you get nasty.

 

LOL, now I know you're a clown.

[Elktonnick]

LOL, now I know you're a clown.

 

Thanks for.making my point.

[notin]

I find this position hard to swallow. The same people do NOT watch every play of every game. There just aren't hours enough in the day to do that. Since Notin has already established that everyone has a bias one cannot simply assume that all these trained people are seeing things the same way.

 

1. Plenty of time if you watch replays of games. Fast forwarding through the pitches to the batted balls - which is all one needs here - and a baseball game can be watched in 15 minutes. DVR one and try it sometime.

 

2. Bear in mind, there is a difference between a bias - which is an unfair prejudice - and a cognitive bias, which is an inherent flaw in human thought processes with regards to processing data. But as many of these plays are monitored using software now anyway, cognitive biases are not an issue...

[moonslav59]

Thanks for.making my point.

 

You don't make any point.

 

You just say others are wrong.

 

You don't answer simple questions, which debaters do. (They also have to take a position and defend their side- not just bash the other side.)

 

You use outdated references for you "evidence."

 

You claim Gammons is a saber guy and should be disqualified as evidence, then when outted, use a quote the guy you bashed by using something he said in 2001 to try and support your bashing.

 

You then make claims about people not using logic.

 

Why not answer the questions?

[Elktonnick]

I’ve noticed.

Re your

Nothing wrong with expert testimony. But really the majority of yours is incomplete and questionable. Sure, Torre played Jeter a lot, but was it because of his offense or his defense? Worth noting, Jeter was once benched for an offensive slump. Wonder why Torre didn’t leave his glove in the lineup.

 

Really your expert sources have the same flaws as moon’s...

 

Re your last line. May be so but I wasn't the one who made the absolute statement about Jeter.. On any case I have written all I am going to on this. It is time to move on before the mods shut it down. Vaya con dios

[moonslav59]

So. I was not the one who brought up Gammons name. Gammons clearly thought Jeter was better at that time.

 

That "time" was right after the period where I claimed Jeter was not horrible. The 10-11 year span I made my claim about began in 2004.

 

You think this supports your argument? You still cling to this?

 

This isn't about bowing to what is right, it's about coming clean when you know you used faulty evidence.

 

It's okay to admit you were wrong. I've been wrong and have admitted it many times. I admit I may be wrong about Jete being the worst. Maybe HRam or Betancourt were, and Jete was just 3rd worst.

 

I do still feel content in my opinion that he is much closer to the worst than even average, let alone GG caliber.

[Bellhorn04]

Slight understatement. It will have a major impact. It’s arguably the most important outside factor remaining...

 

The only thing is, the news might be wishy-washy, as in 'I still don't think he needs surgery, more rest and rehabilitation should suffice.'

[moonslav59]

Re your last line. May be so but I wasn't the one who made the absolute statement about Jeter.. On any case I have written all I am going to on this. It is time to move on before the mods shut it down. Vaya con dios

 

Yes, move on before you even give your opinion on where you think Jeter ranks, fine. Okay, he's not the best (#1) or the worst (#30). Your position is he's between #2 and #29. That's a pretty easy position to defend. Here's trophy for your bold position.

[kenmeister]

The only thing is, the news might be wishy-washy, as in 'I still don't think he needs surgery, more rest and rehabilitation should suffice.'

 

I see 3 outcomes:

 

1. Sale is healthy. Yay!

2. Sale is said to "need rest but should be ready by spring training" which means he'll get Tommy John surgery in late March / early April. (Cynicism!)

3. Sale gets Tommy John surgery now.

[Bellhorn04]

I see 3 outcomes:

 

1. Sale is healthy. Yay!

2. Sale is said to "need rest but should be ready by spring training" which means he'll get Tommy John surgery in late March / early April. (Cynicism!)

3. Sale gets Tommy John surgery now.

 

Yep. And I think even if it's #1, we'll be a tad cynical till we see him in actual games.

[OH FOY]

The thing I keep hearing up here in NE, is that the Sox will have to move a good cost controlled player to move salary, in a Trade.

Mazz, said Vazquez, E-Rod, and Benni, are supposedly on the table. In other words Price plus some money, and say Benni for Prospects, and maybe a Major League Player.

Take it for what it is worth, something to think about.

Edited November 11, 2019 by OH FOY!

[Bellhorn04]

The thing I keep hearing up here in NE, is that the Sox will have to move a good cost controlled player to move salary, in a Trade.

Mazz, said Vazquez, E-Rod, and Benni, are supposedly on the table. In other words Price plus some money, and say Benni for Prospects, and maybe a Major League Player.

Take it for what it is worth, something to think about.

 

That does make a lot of sense, unfortunately (especially if it's E-Rod).

 

In Bloom We Trust!

[moonslav59]

I see 3 outcomes:

 

1. Sale is healthy. Yay!

2. Sale is said to "need rest but should be ready by spring training" which means he'll get Tommy John surgery in late March / early April. (Cynicism!)

3. Sale gets Tommy John surgery now.

 

The worst is #2, but that's what seems to happen, too often.

 

If he's going to need it at some point, IMO, the best time is the day after he finds out from Andrews.

[moonslav59]

That does make a lot of sense, unfortunately (especially if it's E-Rod).

 

In Bloom We Trust!

 

I'd hate to lose any of these guys, but many if they are not under team control for more than 2 years, I'd listen to any offer.

[OH FOY]

You Trade E-Rod and Price, you better get something good back. I figure with just about everybody saying JBJ is gone, they will have salary to now talk to Mookie.

[Slasher9]

he took 3 steps after catching the ball and then jumped into the stands.

he was completely out of position in the postseason on the giambi play at the plate

a fan reached over into the field of play and caused a flyout to become a postseason homerun

he refused like a little bitch baby to move to 3b to allow a far superior SS to play the position which no doubt cost his team multiple parades

he forced his team to wear re2spect patches for a full month during his farewell tour that caused complete clubhouse distraction resulting in "his" team missing the playoffs for the first time in 2 decades

defensively he was the very worst SS i have ever seen play baseball for an extended amount of time at the major league level.

[OH FOY]

That 13 million for Pedroia is hurting us. Wish he was earning it.

[illinoisredsox]

That 13 million for Pedroia is hurting us. Wish he was earning it.

 

Good grief, get over it. However much you wish he was "earning" it, multiply that times 1000 for Pedey's level of wish.

 

He got hurt on the field. It wasn't doing something stupid off in the off season. He did everything he could to get back whenever he was hurt. He never sat out with a hangnail the way some guys do. He left it out on the field every time he played and often played when he probably shouldn't have. Save the angst for the Buchholz's of the world.

[Bellhorn04]

Good grief, get over it. However much you wish he was "earning" it, multiply that times 1000 for Pedey's level of wish.

 

He got hurt on the field. It wasn't doing something stupid off in the off season. He did everything he could to get back whenever he was hurt. He never sat out with a hangnail the way some guys do. He left it out on the field every time he played and often played when he probably shouldn't have.

 

Well said.

[Michigan adam]

I just wish the rules would allow him to retire, join the coaching staff to continue to get his money, and have it not count on the team any more. In the case of career ending injury I think that is very reasonable, just not within the rules. That or a stretch provision kind of like the NBA. Something. He was not too old for the contract he received, he just got unlucky. It would be different if he was 40...

[moonslav59]

he took 3 steps after catching the ball and then jumped into the stands.

he was completely out of position in the postseason on the giambi play at the plate

a fan reached over into the field of play and caused a flyout to become a postseason homerun

he refused like a little bitch baby to move to 3b to allow a far superior SS to play the position which no doubt cost his team multiple parades

he forced his team to wear re2spect patches for a full month during his farewell tour that caused complete clubhouse distraction resulting in "his" team missing the playoffs for the first time in 2 decades

defensively he was the very worst SS i have ever seen play baseball for an extended amount of time at the major league level.

 

Spoken like a true expert with no use of deceptive and black magical sabermetrics, too.

[cp176]

How are simple plays made "embelished?"

 

I never said it was all about range. Surely, making the plays most SSs make at a better rate has real value. My example I presented took that into account.

 

You obviously want to argue. I never said that you said that it is all about range even though it did seem as though you were placing more emphasis on range than i think it deserves. I have no clue where you got your numbers from. i'll take that guy as I have said before who makes all of the routine plays and gets to 100 more balls than the rest can every day. My point is and will not change that i value consistent infield play and that often times even though it looks fantastic the guy who can make the great play gets more credit than he who is consistent on a daily basis.