Sale to IL with elbow injury

[jacksonianmarch]

Jackson please stop the Debbie freaking Downer s*** ! This s good news today and you know it .

 

Read my post. It was about Tanaka

[Swiharts Ghost]

Read my post. It was about Tanaka

 

It was man but it's got a clip on to sale in my opinion .Jackson your a great poster here hell one of my favorites ...but man you have to tread lightly sometimes .Bull in China shop ? I may be sensitive tonight apolagies if I'm off .

Edited August 20, 2019 by Swiharts Ghost

[jacksonianmarch]

It was man but it's got a clip on to sale in my opinion .Jackson your a great poster here hell one of my favorites ...but man you have to tread lightly sometimes .Bull in China shop ?

 

Thanks, I think? But the comparison to Tanaka is not the one you want. He returned a clearly diminished player.

[fxkatt]

Tanaka is not trying to throw 97. Said it weeks ago. First Sale must dissuade himself of the notion that he can throw again as he did earlier in his career. Sale should have known where this was going. If he has learned it with limited damage to the elbow that is fine. If he insists on pressing the issue he will only come to grief. He is about 175 lbs, He generates no momentum toward the plate from his lower body. In fact he generates less lower body momentum in his motion than Price does with his recoil follow-through. Sale with no follow-through to speak of is trying to throw as hard as guys that outweigh him by 40 lbs. That effort was always going to have a shorter shelf life.

 

Tanaka really did not have to go through the kind of transformation that faces Sale. Tanaks pretty much knew where he was and did not really press the issue. Sale has already tried to press the issue once.

 

Hate to think it but this could start looking like Tim Lincecum II. Not sure there really is the same path forward for Sale that Tanaka took.

 

He's the opposite of Tom Seaver, who was all leg-powered. It's hard to imagine Sale, unfortunately, adjusting the way Tanaka and other crafty pitchers have. But I could be wrong. Besides, he may develop his own artfulness that looks nothing like earlier age-adjusted pitchers. As to his skinniness, there was Mariano Rivera, but of course he was a one-inning guy with power and finesse. 30 million a year for BP guy? Maybe he can develop a knuckle ball, and then even pitch beyond his contract (ha)

[FredLynn]

So much speculation about how diminished Sale will be when he returns.....while its fun to speculate, Sale is not Tanaka. He may well have a completely different injury, one that responds better to treatment (or worse). I am just going to wait and see what Andrews says in October and then see what his velocity and command look like on opening day, assuming he doesn't need surgery. Its absurd to guess what kind of pitcher he will become at this point.

[jung]

So much speculation about how diminished Sale will be when he returns.....while its fun to speculate, Sale is not Tanaka. He may well have a completely different injury, one that responds better to treatment (or worse). I am just going to wait and see what Andrews says in October and then see what his velocity and command look like on opening day, assuming he doesn't need surgery. Its absurd to guess what kind of pitcher he will become at this point.

 

If Sale doesn't fight it he can succeed. He still has a great Slider. His Change could be better. But that could be one of the things he works on. He will need to keep enough difference in velo between his FB and his Slider to make the Slider effective. That does not require that he throw 97. I knew he was in trouble when he tried to go back to heavy velo because he was over-thowing to get there putting excessive pressure on his arm. His throws are all arm and he is skin and bones. If he did not have such a long, lanky body, he would never be able to generate the velo he generates. Its that long arm that creates the fulcrum he uses to throw hard. But with no lower body driving toward home plate and being 180 lbs soaking wet, his throw is all arm. He was never going to be able to throw heavy velo deep into a career.

 

He has to resolve this for himself in his own head. Its his head that will be the issue now. So much of his pride on the mound has been based on serious gas and the ability to throw any pitch at any time. Can he generate the same sort of mental attitude toward his pitching by "fooling" hitters instead of overpowering them with massive FB velo and ridiculous Slider movement. We won't know until Sale actually confronts it and works it out, or doesn't.

 

Tim Lincicum couldn't do it. He just threw himself into the turf, ground his arm to dust because his whole makeup on the mound was based on serious gas and serious movement using a skin and bones body, a long arm and a big fulcrum just like Sale. If anything Timmy put more lower body into his pitch than Sale. There just was not much body there to work with...again just like Sale.

 

Timmy was hard to watch at the end because you could see that he was just unwilling or unable to give up his old pitching self but just could not do it any longer. At the end he would deteriorate and fall apart within two innings....arm just completely spent.

Edited August 20, 2019 by jung

[Fan_since_Boggs]

No team has done it yet, at least not for a full season, but I was thinking about the idea of going to a 6 man rotation next year. If it will help Sale perform as a top starter and keep him healthy, the Red Sox should do it. Some combination of B.Johnson and Houck (or maybe S.Wright) could be the 6th starter. With Porcello gone, I don't know who the fifth guy is, but I would use M.Chavis as a trade chip in the offseason for a SP.

 

(1)Sale

(2)Rodriguez

(3)Eavoldi

(4)Price

(5)???

(6)Johnson/Houck or Wright

 

Again, I would only go to a 6 man rotation if the Red Sox believe that easing up on guys like Sale and Eavoldi will make them better pitchers and improve their health.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Fan_since_Boggs

[jacksonianmarch]

A 6 man rotation only happens when you have six viable big league starters. While the idea would be noble to save the arms of your two fragile pitchers, it would only guarantee that you have 1/3 of the starts delivered by your rotation by guys who don’t belong on the mound as starters

[jacksonianmarch]

He's the opposite of Tom Seaver, who was all leg-powered. It's hard to imagine Sale, unfortunately, adjusting the way Tanaka and other crafty pitchers have. But I could be wrong. Besides, he may develop his own artfulness that looks nothing like earlier age-adjusted pitchers. As to his skinniness, there was Mariano Rivera, but of course he was a one-inning guy with power and finesse. 30 million a year for BP guy? Maybe he can develop a knuckle ball, and then even pitch beyond his contract (ha)

 

I’m not sure how much the now Tanaka is a conscious choice vs a diminished arm. Tanaka took this course of treatment for a partial UCL tear. It worked for his longevity, but the guy who returned lost the top off his velocity range. Interestingly, Tanaka’s average FB velocity went up by 0.6 mph, but when you watched his debut season, he was anywhere from 90-97 on his fastball. Now, he’s 90-93 with an occasional 94 mixed in. So he’s throwing the ball harder on average yet he’s lost the ability to blow it by hitters when needed. It’s made his fastball far more predictable. A 7 mph range on the FB is akin to having a fastball that can act as a Changeup. He was unhittable. Now, he adjusted, but has essentially become a far more frequent breaking ball tossed in the interim. He returned throwing 8% less fastballs and that’s dropped to 10% less off his peak this year.

 

Now, semantics play into this too. Seeing “inflammation” or calling this an “elbow sprain” entails a tear. The tear could be significant or it could mean a micro tear. But there’s some tearing in there. The PRP is intended to repair the damage there.

[jung]

I think the key element to the "other transition pitchers" discussion is that Tanaka had a path to a reasonably effective continuing career. CC not discussed here had one. Timmy didn't.

 

I think Sale has a narrow path to a reasonably effective continuing career depending on how much real damage there is in that elbow. A better Change than the one he features now, the same Slider and FB velo in the 91-94 range and mostly 91-93 could be Sale's path. I have serious doubts Chris can go backwards to where he was. Biggest issue IMO.....Chris is going to fight it. He is IMO going to try to go back to where he was.

[notin]

Ehen it comes to pitcher reinventing themselves, the best success story - and one no one has mentioned - is former Sox SP Frank Tanana. Some of you might remember him. (His Sox tenure was rather nondescript, however.)

 

Tanana came up at 19 pitching for the Angels alongside Nolan Ryan, and threw nearly as hard. But by age 25, completely ruined his arm.

 

He came back immediately throwing a huge variety of curveballs, and while he wasn’t the elite pitcher prior to his injury, managed to pitch in MLB until he was 39 years old.

 

If Sale has to reinvent himself, it can be done quickly. And it can be very successful...

[vegasbob]

Here's the good news. You will have 5 years to watch and pay significant money for a pitcher who failed to finish the last two seasons with some combination of shoulder and elbow stress injuries . Skinny or fat, hard fastball or junk curve lollipops, the Sox have him now. Hope springs eternal but Chris Sale will be the next anchor on the payroll for a while to come. Realistically and based on Chris's history, the Sox would be better off holding Sale out of baseball activity, having a very late ST ramp up next May, and see if he can get from June through September when it may count.

[jung]

Here's the good news. You will have 5 years to watch and pay significant money for a pitcher who failed to finish the last two seasons with some combination of shoulder and elbow stress injuries . Skinny or fat, hard fastball or junk curve lollipops, the Sox have him now. Hope springs eternal but Chris Sale will be the next anchor on the payroll for a while to come. Realistically and based on Chris's history, the Sox would be better off holding Sale out of baseball activity, having a very late ST ramp up next May, and see if he can get from June through September when it may count.

 

The baseball version of Ron Gronkowski but on a guaranteed contract.

[Slasher9]

doom and gloom post:

if it ends up TJS or he never fully recovers and cannot pitch....he would have thrown a total of 0 pitches on the shiny new 5 year contract. would that go down as the worst contract of all time???

[d-money]

What a terrible contract. That’s all i have to say. The guy has been babied a lot and he can’t stay healthy. A miserable season comes to an end.

[oldtimer]

Here's the good news. You will have 5 years to watch and pay significant money for a pitcher who failed to finish the last two seasons with some combination of shoulder and elbow stress injuries . Skinny or fat, hard fastball or junk curve lollipops, the Sox have him now. Hope springs eternal but Chris Sale will be the next anchor on the payroll for a while to come. Realistically and based on Chris's history, the Sox would be better off holding Sale out of baseball activity, having a very late ST ramp up next May, and see if he can get from June through September when it may count.

 

I don't know where this entry should be put, but since you bring up the $30 million risk on Sale, it reminds me of a thought about long term planning of the team's finances and how it will work with the long term contracts that we currently have on the books. In general, I foresee:

 

1. There will be some cap limit on spending going forward applied in an effort to keep a competitive balance between the large and small market teams. How it will be structured and how it may change will depend on player's union input at the next negotiations. The point is that there will be a limitation.

 

2. The Sox have some fairly near term contracts and some long term contracts that are meaningful. Price is a 2 year one, Price for 5, Bogie for 4 I believe, Pedroia winding down, Eovaldi and JDM.

 

3 The Sox will have to deal with JBJ, Betts and Porcello and E-Rod near term and have Beni and Devers who will begin to be paid. Devers is superstar material and money needs to be reserved to keep him.

 

4. We probably need new GM leadership as it appears to me that we have a predicament going forward and our current GM made the decisions to put us into the situation. We need to rebuild our farm system while trying to keep the seats filled until we can restructure our contracts going forward.

 

5. I would say few fans see how we can trade away the most damaging contracts we currently have, so the emphasis should be on not committing to additional long term ones that will not likely pay dividends for the team. Right now it looks like Porcello, JBJ and in a year, Betts will need to be dealt with. Others we just assume are gone with the exception of Leon and Holt, both of whom are questionable for the longer term. I'd expect Porcello and Jbj to be gone and an at value offer to be made for Betts. We'd be better with him but not at $30 mil for 10 years.

 

 

It will not be an easy time for the GM going forward. Lets hope we get a smart yet hard headed leader who considers the long term.

[OH FOY]

Still doesn't mean he doesn't need surgery. 6 weeks will tell you.

[jung]

Still doesn't mean he doesn't need surgery. 6 weeks will tell you.

 

Yup.....they could actually just be waiting for the inflammation to subside and taking a look at that point.

 

But he is done for the year. He is not going to pitch at all for these 6 weeks....zipo....zero....nada. So that is it for this year and well it should be.

 

To be honest, I almost wish they simply looked in 6 weeks and operated at that point. Its the actual only shot Sale has at pitching the same way he has always pitched which I think is uber-important to Chris Sale the person. It would be his first TJ which would also be encouraging. Its not like he would be on to TJ II or TJ III. I would rather give up his 2020 season and get back the Chris Sale we are paying for than nurse along a frustrated pitcher.

 

Just heard that Sale got a PLP injection in the elbow on Monday. That is not the most encouraging thing I have ever heard.

Edited August 20, 2019 by jung

[Noles_1335]

Why don't they just go ahead and do the TJ surgery. It has been just a matter of time before that elbow became a long term problem. The injection that was used is not just a typical cortisone shot... there has to be a slight tear in there and yeah we may give him a 6 month break in hopes it heals itself but we all see the writing on the wall and how this plays out.... He comes back in late April/May and says and maybe even shows a good arm and then wham around the trade deadline another stint on the IL and then has TJ and we don't see him until 2022. Expect him out until June 2021 and start the trading process to rebuild and get some damn arms and actual MLB talent coming from the minors.

[Kimmi]

I agree with this assessment. And I do not think that DD is the right guy to rebuild our farm system. I don't think he has ever successfully done that. He is a GM who tends to destroy farm systems in order to win now. Nothing wrong with that, but he is the wrong guy for the job at hand.

 

#BringBackBen

[Bellhorn04]

It will not be an easy time for the GM going forward. Lets hope we get a smart yet hard headed leader who considers the long term.

 

It's never going to be easy being head of baseball ops of the Boston Red Sox.

 

Theo is gone.

Ben is gone.

DD will soon be gone.

 

Combined they won 4 titles, the most of any team this century. And yet they're all goners...

[SoxHop]

It's never going to be easy being head of baseball ops of the Boston Red Sox.

 

Theo is gone.

Ben is gone.

DD will soon be gone.

 

Combined they won 4 titles, the most of any team this century. And yet they're all goners...

 

Well said.

 

We are living the good life.

 

You got to handle the lows as well as you handle the highs.

[Larry33]

I think this is just the precursor to inevitable TJ surgery since last season he hasn't pitched dominate like he had shoulder issues, this year it's elbow problem plus since the start of the year he wasn't great even though he turned out a couple of good outing now he's shut down for the season. Who knows what next season be like it's very unlikely that he can labor through a full rigorous season again given his high mileage arm.

[FredLynn]

I’m not sure how much the now Tanaka is a conscious choice vs a diminished arm. Tanaka took this course of treatment for a partial UCL tear. It worked for his longevity, but the guy who returned lost the top off his velocity range. Interestingly, Tanaka’s average FB velocity went up by 0.6 mph, but when you watched his debut season, he was anywhere from 90-97 on his fastball. Now, he’s 90-93 with an occasional 94 mixed in. So he’s throwing the ball harder on average yet he’s lost the ability to blow it by hitters when needed. It’s made his fastball far more predictable. A 7 mph range on the FB is akin to having a fastball that can act as a Changeup. He was unhittable. Now, he adjusted, but has essentially become a far more frequent breaking ball tossed in the interim. He returned throwing 8% less fastballs and that’s dropped to 10% less off his peak this year.

 

Now, semantics play into this too. Seeing “inflammation” or calling this an “elbow sprain” entails a tear. The tear could be significant or it could mean a micro tear. But there’s some tearing in there. The PRP is intended to repair the damage there.

 

I haven't seen it called a "sprain" anywhere...only that its inflammation, which could be a myriad of things. There may or may not be a tear. We are not entitled to know (if it IS known) what the cause of the inflammation is. Here are some of the things it COULD be. Obviously some are irrelevant, but this points out the fact that inflammation can be caused not JUST by an UCL tear:

 

Differential Diagnosis of Elbow Pain Based on Anatomic Location

Anterior

 

Anterior capsule strain

Biceps tendinopathy

Gout

Intra-articular loose body

Osteoarthritis

Pronator syndrome

Rheumatoid arthritis

 

Lateral

 

Lateral epicondylitis

Osteochondral defect

Plica

Posterolateral rotatory instability

Radial tunnel syndrome/posterior interosseous nerve syndrome

 

Medial

 

Cubital tunnel syndrome

Medial epicondylitis

Ulnar collateral ligament injury

Valgus extension overload syndrome

 

Posterior

 

Olecranon bursitis

Olecranon stress fracture

Osteoarthritis

Posterior impingement

Triceps tendinopathy

 

The actual diagnosis is less important than how well he will perform once healed. Thats really the bottom line. Will he still have 95+? Will he be able to adapt successfully if he only has 93? Only time will tell.......

Edited August 20, 2019 by FredLynn

[FredLynn]

#BringBackBen

 

He isn't available. He is too busy. I recently bought a Chevy from him at the local dealership.

[Kimmi]

He isn't available. He is too busy. I recently bought a Chevy from him at the local dealership.

 

He's too busy building up the Jays farm system.

[SoxHop]

Pablo was a better idea of a signing than Sale

[SoxHop]

150 weight. Violent arm delivery. Who would have thought he might have issues later in his career.

[Kimmi]

Pablo was a better idea of a signing than Sale

 

Incoming!

[notin]

It's never going to be easy being head of baseball ops of the Boston Red Sox.

 

Theo is gone.

Ben is gone.

DD will soon be gone.

 

Combined they won 4 titles, the most of any team this century. And yet they're all goners...

 

To be fair, as the de facto leader of the Fire Dombrowski Movement, he isn't gone and we really don't know if he actually will be...