Sale to IL with elbow injury

[jung]

DD might lose his job but it won't be because of Sale.

 

John Henry was 200% on board with this, as his comments about blowing it with Lester made eminently clear.

 

I think DD deserves to go, in fact needs to go. But the Sale deal is just part of that...not nearly the entirety of it. DD is not well equipped to take this team forward. Plain as the noses on our faces.

 

Problem is Henry will only hire the devil he knows. No interest in the devil he does not know. That probably limits his field of options by a good bit.

[notin]

Here we go again.

 

It’s different this time. I’ve added wild teenage party imagery. That’s new.

 

Also it’s not about defending Cherington as much as it’s about criticizing Dombrowski...

[notin]

I think DD deserves to go, in fact needs to go. But the Sale deal is just part of that...not nearly the entirety of it. DD is not well equipped to take this team forward. Plain as the noses on our faces.

 

Problem is Henry will only hire the devil he knows. No interest in the devil he does not know. That probably limits his field of options by a good bit.

 

That’s not really a fair statement. Despite a long history of team ownership, he hasn’t had a lot of GMs.

 

And he did make an offer to Billy Beane before hiring Epstein. Other than the offer, he had no professional connection to Beane...

[Bellhorn04]

Would another team given Sale $145/5 as a FA? I very very seriously doubt it.

 

Correct. The point is, IF Sale had had a strong 2019, like Lester did in 2014, he could have gotten a lot more.

 

It's also worth noting that the deferred money in Sale's contract reduced the present value down to $128 million and an AAV of $25.6 million.

[jung]

That’s not really a fair statement. Despite a long history of team ownership, he hasn’t had a lot of GMs.

 

And he did make an offer to Billy Beane before hiring Epstein. Other than the offer, he had no professional connection to Beane...

 

Beane had a proven track record of being deeply devoted to a statistically driven process. For a guy who runs a financial management company, Beane was as much a known quantity as Henry was ever going to find. If Beane had done something as GM that "surprised" Henry he probably would have fallen over from a heart attack on the spot.

[moonslav59]

The timing of his extension was incredibly stupid and will likely cost Dombrowski his job. He was under contract for this year. He finished last year with a mystery shoulder ailment that robbed him of his second half, his playoff effectiveness and his velocity. Then you extend him before he throws another pitch? It was unnecessary. You let this season play out. Listen, if Sale tosses 200IP and was lights out all year last year, then you extend in ST. With how last year ended, you have to be willing to let it play out. DD thought he got a discount, but what he did was throw big money at a broken down former ace and he will likely pay for it with his job

 

You don't get lower dollars and lower years, unless you extend at that time.

 

It was a gamble. DD weighed paying more and for longer years vs the risk of injury bringing his value down in 2019.

 

It looks like he may have lost, but only time will tell.

 

I heard the same thing about Porcello- "stupid deal" then it was a "great deal," and now it looks bad to okay to decent depending on your perspective.

 

Chris Sale has been one of the best pitchers this decade. You don't lock these guys up by acting like a pansy.

 

I can just imagine what we'd be hearing, even today, had we locked up Lester, and then he got hurt.

[moonslav59]

Would another team given Sale $145/5 as a FA? I very very seriously doubt it.

 

Last winter? NO.

 

They's have given him $210M/7.

[moonslav59]

I don’t think I’m in the BC Fan Club so much. It’s more of my anti-Dombrowski stance from this year...

 

You've been an equal opportunity GM critic.

 

(We all know you want the job!)

[moonslav59]

It’s different this time. I’ve added wild teenage party imagery. That’s new.

 

Also it’s not about defending Cherington as much as it’s about criticizing Dombrowski...

 

I get that, but you know the Pandora's Box was opened.

[Slasher9]

broken down former ace

 

pro level troll line right here.

when he is sub 3 ERA for 2020 and is on a duckboat i will be adding this to my signature line.

[notin]

Beane had a proven track record of being deeply devoted to a statistically driven process. For a guy who runs a financial management company, Beane was as much a known quantity as Henry was ever going to find. If Beane had done something as GM that "surprised" Henry he probably would have fallen over from a heart attack on the spot.

 

But the bottom line is, if reputation counts as "the deveil he knows", it opns up the field of candidates for Henry. Most of the larger markets higher GMs with some sort of reputation and track record anyway. Really, if anything, Henry's hire of Epstein shows him to be a bit bolder in that area than most of the other large market teams might have been...

[jung]

But the bottom line is, if reputation counts as "the deveil he knows", it opns up the field of candidates for Henry. Most of the larger markets higher GMs with some sort of reputation and track record anyway. Really, if anything, Henry's hire of Epstein shows him to be a bit bolder in that area than most of the other large market teams might have been...

 

And I suspect Henry still feels "wounded" by Theo over Carl Crawford and Theo still feels undercut by Henry. I expect Theo to be back here someday. But its been 8 years.....now and I STILL don't think that is enough for either Henry or Theo. Probably 8x2 might be enough.

[Kimmi]

I don't agree.

 

He should have at least held down the fort in a position where no Sox GM had a clue how to just have a reasonable human stand in that position.

 

The length of the contract was misguided from day one. That said, there was no way to foresee Pablo being as bad as he was the year he signed with Boston. Our 3B production from the previous year was so bad, that I can understand signing Pablo. He should have been a decent upgrade. No way would I have ever given him 5 years, but I can understand the rationale behind the signing.

[Kimmi]

I don't see how DD can be blamed for our SPers sucking this year. Yes, he should probably have obtained another RP, but if our SP did their job we would still be in the playoffs. DD assembled a competitive team....which didn't do their job.

 

It's almost like I typed this post myself.

[Kimmi]

Well, he held over a successful team from last year and has done nothing to improve it. Cherington built a Wolrd Series Champion in 2013 and did nothing as well in 2014, and the team was not successful. Was that on the team or Cherington? Because Ben was stripped of some of his responsibilities the next season...

 

2014 was on the team, not on Cherington.

 

Cherington should not have lost his job so soon. The thing about 5 year plans is that they typically take 5 years. And Cherington was able to win us a WS in the midst of that 5 year plan, which is hard to do.

[notin]

And I suspect Henry still feels "wounded" by Theo over Carl Crawford and Theo still feels undercut by Henry. I expect Theo to be back here someday. But its been 8 years.....now and I STILL don't think that is enough for either Henry or Theo. Probably 8x2 might be enough.

 

Why would Henry feel wounded by the Crawford deal? It was actually a good idea for the Sox; it just didn't work out. But at the time, Crawford was coming off an MVP-caliber season, and the Sox probably suspected re-signing Ellsbury would not be easy, as he had rebuffed several extensions and his agent (Scott Boras) was notorious for advising players to go to free agency. To me, it looked like an early attempt to replace Ellsbury at the top of the lineup with an elite leadoff hitter. Sort of a pre-emptive strike, and probably smarter than waiting out Ellsbury and settling for whoever was the second best leadoff hitter the following season. The idea was good; the results were not.

 

I doubt Theo comes back. Right now, a return to the Red Sox is a lateral move at best. Why goi from being President of Ops of one large market team to President of Ops of another, and one you have already worked for? If Epstein goes anywhere after Chicago, I would expect him to try a different challenge. When your reputation is for ending long standing title droughts, who is next? you ended the two mot famous ones already. He might have to try to end a smaller market one. Like Cleveland or Seattle.

 

The Sox might even consider just promoting Assistant GM Eddie Romero. He's been with the organization a long time and is from a baseball family (dad played for the Sox). And if Henry wants someone he knows, Romero certainly qualifies. The Sox have certainly had no issue promoting internally to GM before, with Epstein, Cherington, and the oft-forgotten Mike Hazen.

 

In fact, during Henry's tenure, the Sox have had six GMs. He inherited Duquette. Mike Port was an external hire from the Arizona Fall League, where he was President, but he had some GM experience with the Angels. (The Sox later promoted Port to VP.) Epstein, Cherington and Hazen were all internal promotions. And then Dombrowski, who has the dual title of President of Ops/GM, and who was really hired to replace the recently fired Larry Lucchino for the former position, but took over the GM role when Hazen accepted the Diamondbacks GM position.

 

So really, internal promotion seems to be what his history dictates...

[Kimmi]

Generally its on the players...but in fairness, the 2013 team was not as complete a team as the 2018 team. Last years team won 11 more games and had a better run differential than the 13 team. Last years team also scored more runs and had a better ERA than the 2013 team. And essentially the team we put on the field this year was nearly identical to the 2018 juggernaut, except for the closer. I can't blame DD for the players not doing their jobs this year. I do not recall who left the 2013 team after they won; maybe some of the guys who left caused the first to worst.

 

In fairness, I don't think you can blame 2014 on Cherington and not blame 2019 on Dombrowski. The 2014 team was overwhelmingly projected to win the division by both computer models and by baseball analysts. That tells me that the GM did his job, but the players did not get it done.

[notin]

2014 was on the team, not on Cherington.

 

Cherington should not have lost his job so soon. The thing about 5 year plans is that they typically take 5 years. And Cherington was able to win us a WS in the midst of that 5 year plan, which is hard to do.

 

While people like to re-write the history, Dombrowski did want to keep Cherington on as his GM. But Dombrowski also wanted to expand his own role to handle the MLB roster, which apparently did not sit well with Cherington. That Dombrowski promoted Mike Hazen to replace Cherington, and Hazen was largely limited to minor league development, just shows the role Dombrowski wanted Cherington to fill within the organization...

[Kimmi]

In fact, just blaming the SP is not 100% accurate.

 

Eovaldi - wit ha significant history of injury - has missed most of 2018. Dombrowski's lucrative extension made replacing him difficult. (So apparently he decided not to try beyond Ryan Weber.)

 

Sale missed time in 2018, and was not the same in the postseason. He was also given a lucrative extension. Now that he is out, don't hold your breath for a replacement.

 

Price has been having off-and-on issues since 2017. If he isn't 100%, why do you expect the same results from when he was?

 

Porcello has been a flop. That's on him.

 

But essentially, Dombrowski took a WSC team and the extent ofhis "improvements" was to replace Craig Kimbrel with Colten Brewer. Meanwhile, Houston and NY and Tampa and, well, everyone else, was trying to get better to catch the Sox. Juggernaut or not, he absolutely gave everyone the chance to close the gap. And some of them took it...

 

Eovaldi should have been an improvement over what Pomeranz gave us. I don't think it's a fair assessment to say that Dombrowski did nothing to improve the team. No, he probably didn't make as many improvements as other teams did, but when you're the WS Champs coming off a 108 win season, really, how much improvement can be done?

 

I get the whole argument about not improving the bullpen, not that I agree with it, but I get it. But he did improve our starting rotation, which IMO, was the main area in need of improvement. Our offense was and is fine as is.

[jacksonianmarch]

pro level troll line right here.

when he is sub 3 ERA for 2020 and is on a duckboat i will be adding this to my signature line.

 

With how DD has decimated your farm, you’re not seeing duckboats for a LOOOOONG time

[notin]

Generally its on the players...but in fairness, the 2013 team was not as complete a team as the 2018 team. Last years team won 11 more games and had a better run differential than the 13 team. Last years team also scored more runs and had a better ERA than the 2013 team. And essentially the team we put on the field this year was nearly identical to the 2018 juggernaut, except for the closer.

 

Now that i look at this statement again, that is a massive oversimplification.

 

The 2014 team came in last place. The team might have been "incomplete", whatever that means, but you can't go from first with the same team without a massive change in the player's performance. The Sox only lost two players, and while Ellsbury was still good, he wasn't so good that subtracting him changed the team by 25 wins. And the other player lost was Ryan Dempster, the fifth starter...

[Kimmi]

Well, my rant is about the condition and lack of depth for the SP. I think we all at least had questions about Sale and Price after 2018. Or should have. And expecting a full season from Eovaldi is simply not wise. Where was the depth?

 

I have always been on the same page as you in terms of signing those depth players to minor league contracts. Dumpster dives, as many like to call it. Dombrowski fell asleep on that, both in preseason and throughout the season.

[Kimmi]

Let's not forget that Ottavino didn't just get 9 million, he got 9 million times 3 = 27 million.

 

That said, Ottavino looks like a great signing for the Yanks at the moment. Probably the best of the larger contracts given out to relievers this offseason, I guess.

 

Ottavino and Workman are virtually the same pitcher. One costs $27 mil, $9 mil this year. The other costs $1.15 mil.

 

Both are due for some serious regression. While the $27 mil contract looks good to most people this year, there's a good chance it will look pretty bad next year.

[notin]

Eovaldi should have been an improvement over what Pomeranz gave us. I don't think it's a fair assessment to say that Dombrowski did nothing to improve the team. No, he probably didn't make as many improvements as other teams did, but when you're the WS Champs coming off a 108 win season, really, how much improvement can be done?

 

I get the whole argument about not improving the bullpen, not that I agree with it, but I get it. But he did improve our starting rotation, which IMO, was the main area in need of improvement. Our offense was and is fine as is.

 

He improved the pitching rotation superficially. But there was and still is nothing below the top 5 starters. While you can argue the injuries to Sale, Eovaldi and Price were unlucky, they were hardly surprising. Sale ended 2018 with some concerns. Price has had his issues since coming to Boston. And Eovaldi is a frequent visitor the the DL/IL.

 

The bullpen has actually been a pleasant surprise in some ways. I keep expecting Marcus Walden to fall apart, but the man is a Phoenix, repeatedly rising from the ashes of his own poor performances. Workman is having a career year. And Barnes, while up and down, was probably relied on too heavily by Cora early on. And now Josh Taylor looks like he might be carving out his own little niche for 2020. Still, the overall plan to grab a backup 1B in stead of another arm to give more depth in case anything went wrong strikes me as a very poor decision, especially since (unlike me) Dombrowski was aware of the Sox' financial situation.

 

But really the bottom line is this team has struggled since March, and while getting Cashner was a nice idea, we really have not seen anything else from Dombrowski. Rome was burning, and there was Dombrowski, fiddling away with Chris Owings and Joey Curletta. Meanwhile, the Yankees have the best record in the AL, and Cashman still isn't sitting still. Sure, it's extremely unlikely David Hernandez, Tyler Lyons and Trevor Rosenthal contribute in any meaningful way this year, but they are joining his ever-growing fleet of lifeboats. Meanwhile, the Sox have decided to sink or swim with whoever was on board in March and cling to the mantra "they need to play better." And that tactic is simply not working...

[Kimmi]

Oh cp. Pull up your pants and put away the ruler.

 

I hope Sale bounces back, but I had trepidations about the deal at the time. Not unique to that deal; the same ones I have with any mega contract given to a player 30 or older. I just hoped Dombrowski did his due diligence. And he probably did, despite it not working out.

 

You’re right. We shouldn’t compare Dombrowski to Cherington. Dombrowski isn’t even close, and today was a good lesson in how hypocritical the yardstick is. Cherington’s teams failed? That’s all on Ben. But when Dombrowski’s team fails, it’s on the players.

 

Now what I saw happen was Cherington take over the Sox after a horrific collapse with a team that quit on everyone. Despite dominating the AL through August of 2011, they just quit. That same team largely came back and continued to suck. Same team, but underperforming. Sound familiar? When a good GM like Cherington has a team like that, he pulls of the boldest Trade in team history. He shakes things up. And, despite getting back basically nothing in that trade, still won a World Series 14 months later.

 

Dombrowski? What does he do when the team doesn’t play as well as expected? Anything?

 

Dombrowski inherited a lot of good players and a good farm. But he’s essentially that rich kid with a big allowance whose parents went away for the weekend. He spent everything he had to keep the party going, and when it stopped being fun, he quit on us all and is now ready to have someone else clean up the mess. He’d just assume the help get the vomit out of the chandelier and drain the beer from the fish tank...

 

{Mic drop}

[notin]

With how DD has decimated your farm, you’re not seeing duckboats for a LOOOOONG time

 

Given your track record with short term predictions, are you really going to stick your neck out on a long term one?

 

A farm system can be turned around very quickly. Epstein did it brilliantly in 2005 and again in 2011. We just need a GM who not only knows how to draft, but also knows enough not to ignore the international markets.

 

Not to mention, the Sox are a large market team that is clearly willing to spend. They don't have to depend on their farm system to the same extent Tampa does...

[Kimmi]

I don’t think I’m in the BC Fan Club so much. It’s more of my anti-Dombrowski stance from this year...

 

You should join my Fan Club. You would be in the best company imaginable.

[notin]

Ottavino and Workman are virtually the same pitcher. One costs $27 mil, $9 mil this year. The other costs $1.15 mil.

 

Both are due for some serious regression. While the $27 mil contract looks good to most people this year, there's a good chance it will look pretty bad next year.

 

While true, it as never an either/or situation. I would not have minded both. But I keep expecting Ottavino and his control issues to implode...

[notin]

You should join my Fan Club. You would be in the best company imaginable.

 

The Kimmi Fan Club? Lead by Slasher?

[Kimmi]

With how DD has decimated your farm, you’re not seeing duckboats for a LOOOOONG time

 

Stop Jacko. Just stop.

 

Also, when was the last time you saw a parade?

 

Think you're seeing one this year? Think again.