Chris Owings >13th pitcher?

[moonslav59]

As much as we crap on our GM's, Duquette, Epstein, Cherington and Dombrowski delivered piles of playoff teams and 4 championships. Not too bad.

 

True enough. The amazing thing is how different they all are from each other.

[Slasher9]

There will always be good and bad moves made by any GM. I'm sure that there are a couple of folks here who honestly think that they could do his job. That really is my opinion. I do find it humorous that so many tend to hindsight to death anyone who makes decisions that they do not agree with. You will have a tough time getting me to board the I don't like DD train I'm afraid.

 

even with the overpays for Kimbrel & Pom???

[Kimmi]

1. Were the last place finishes his fault or due to player's underperforming? The team came in last in 2014 after winning a title in 2013 with largely the same team. Is that really the fault of the GM? And how is that team's underperformance the fault of the GM, but this year's the fault of the rotation?

2. I didn't like the Sandoval signing, but Hanley was actually not a bad contract. He signed for far below what he was predicted to get, and for fewer years. That he didn't pan out is not the fault of the GM, is it? And Castillo was actually petty good when he was not hurting himself.

3. The big issue many had with the 2015 Sox staff was the lack of an "ace" type pitcher, but the rotation actually held it's own for an average finish of 13th in MLB in fWAR. The real problem with that team was the bullpen, which was 30th in fWAR in MLB. In fact, the rotation ranked higher against it's counterparts than the offense did, as it came in 15th in MLB.

 

And the 2015 Sox did come in last, but it was a surprising 78-84 record, which is pretty good for a last place team. They sort of fell into the back end of a lot of parity, since only 2 teams in the AL won more than 88 games that year...

 

I very much like this post.

[Kimmi]

Interesting, as always, discussion on DD, which to me means upper management and with it John Henry, arguably (with four WS wins) the best owner in MLB today.

 

I find it interesting that JH, while perfectly willing to spend big bucks to bring in high quality player talent, has until DD relied on developing front office talent like Epstein and Cherington--both of whom are currently GM's with the Cubs and Jays respectively.

 

Critics of the movie Moneyball point out that the very successful 2002 Oakland A's relied heavily on young talent developed by the very scouts pilloried in early scenes in the movie. Before DD showed up, the Sox were pretty good at developing young talent like Beni, JBJ, Betts, Bogie, Devers, Chavis, ERod, etc. Now, not so much.

 

The Sox under DD seem to be following a trail blazed by the estimable NY Yankees, the wealthiest MLB franchise, who have historically not hesitated to spend big bucks for overpriced talent. That is exactly how I would characterize our current rotation.

 

Thus I'm inclined to agree with moonslav59, our own talksox GM/owner, who says it's time to go back to an earlier formula of developing young talent while also acquiring some key "outside" talent. DD has never shown any ability or patience in developing talent.

 

IMO, that's the formula that should be used year in and year out.

 

Farm system, farm system, farm system.

[Bellhorn04]

1. Were the last place finishes his fault or due to player's underperforming? The team came in last in 2014 after winning a title in 2013 with largely the same team. Is that really the fault of the GM? And how is that team's underperformance the fault of the GM, but this year's the fault of the rotation?

2. I didn't like the Sandoval signing, but Hanley was actually not a bad contract. He signed for far below what he was predicted to get, and for fewer years. That he didn't pan out is not the fault of the GM, is it? And Castillo was actually petty good when he was not hurting himself.

 

I'll answer these two.

 

1. I didn't blame Ben at all for 2014.

 

2. Pablo has been done to death. As for the Hanley and Castillo signings:

 

With Hanley, first of all, the idea that we got any kind of discount has never really made much sense to me. His recent history was incredibly erratic and injury-plagued.

 

Secondly, they didn't have a position for him. By sticking him in left field we were virtually assured that the only value he would generate was with his bat, so it was like acquiring another DH at 22 million a year.

 

The Castillo signing was basically indefensible. He's never been anything more than a borderline major leaguer.

[cp176]

DD will always have 2018. That's a big accomplishment for him.

 

I find it odd that some write off Dombrowski's questionable moves as "Hey, every GM does it" but then chastise Cherington for exactly the same type of thing...

 

Since you are responding to me, I will just say that when he had the job, I was his fan. I didn't agree with some of the things that he did but i appreciated his hard work. In reality though, my comments have nothing to do with Ben Cherington at all.

[cp176]

even with the overpays for Kimbrel & Pom???

 

hey - you little bugger. Don't you go bringing up my fav the pom pom. And for the record yup - still a big Kimbrel fan.

[moonslav59]

I'll answer these two.

 

1. I didn't blame Ben at all for 2014.

 

2. Pablo has been done to death. As for the Hanley and Castillo signings:

 

With Hanley, first of all, the idea that we got any kind of discount has never really made much sense to me. His recent history was incredibly erratic and injury-plagued.

 

Secondly, they didn't have a position for him. By sticking him in left field we were virtually assured that the only value he would generate was with his bat, so it was like acquiring another DH at 22 million a year.

 

The Castillo signing was basically indefensible. He's never been anything more than a borderline major leaguer.

 

They would have had a position for HRam had they not signed Pablito.

 

3B.

 

Yes, he had been erratic and missed some time, but it's not like these amount of PAs in his previous 9 seasons screamed of fragility:

700

706

693

652

619

385

667

336

512

 

Even the two "injury seasons both saw 330+ PAs

 

He had two down year, and they both were back to back in 2011 and 2012, and those were .712 in his injury year and .759 with 24 Hrts and 94 RBIs is 2012 (3 years before we signed him).

 

From 2013-2014, he had these numbers:

 

.308 33 128 in 848 PAs (62 2B+3B)

.382 OBP

.525 SLG

.907 OPS

He even had 24 SBs!

 

The guy did have somethings going for him, and we did get that one good year from him:

 

.286 33 111 (.866 OPS)

 

He had an .811 OPS from 2016-2017 with 105 XBHs in 1045 ABs.

 

The injury messed him up, and one can't totally blame him for that one. Like most deals like his, it was for 1-2 years too long, and putting him in LF was not a good idea.

 

 

 

[Bellhorn04]

They would have had a position for HRam had they not signed Pablito.

 

3B.

 

Yes, he had been erratic and missed some time, but it's not like these amount of PAs in his previous 9 seasons screamed of fragility:

700

706

693

652

619

385

667

336

512

 

Even the two "injury seasons both saw 330+ PAs

 

He had two down year, and they both were back to back in 2011 and 2012, and those were .712 in his injury year and .759 with 24 Hrts and 94 RBIs is 2012 (3 years before we signed him).

 

From 2013-2014, he had these numbers:

 

.308 33 128 in 848 PAs (62 2B+3B)

.382 OBP

.525 SLG

.907 OPS

He even had 24 SBs!

 

The guy did have somethings going for him, and we did get that one good year from him:

 

.286 33 111 (.866 OPS)

 

He had an .811 OPS from 2016-2017 with 105 XBHs in 1045 ABs.

 

The injury messed him up, and one can't totally blame him for that one. Like most deals like his, it was for 1-2 years too long, and putting him in LF was not a good idea.

 

 

 

 

I'm just mainly looking at these admittedly primitive numbers:

 

2011 70 games missed OPS 712

2012 Only 5 games missed OPS 759

2013 76 games missed OPS 1040

2014 34 games missed OPS 817

 

I know that the reports were that Hanley could have gotten more than he got from us.

 

My take on that, in hindsight, is that this was just before the spreadsheet folks started really playing a big role in front office decisions.

 

I think the spreadsheet folks would not have cranked out super-optimistic projections about Hanley (or Pablo for that matter). They would have seen some pretty big red flags.

[notin]

I'm just mainly looking at these admittedly primitive numbers:

 

2011 70 games missed OPS 712

2012 Only 5 games missed OPS 759

2013 76 games missed OPS 1040

2014 34 games missed OPS 817

 

I know that the reports were that Hanley could have gotten more than he got from us.

 

My take on that, in hindsight, is that this was just before the spreadsheet folks started really playing a big role in front office decisions.

 

I think the spreadsheet folks would not have cranked out super-optimistic projections about Hanley (or Pablo for that matter). They would have seen some pretty big red flags.

 

 

Don’t tell Denny. According to him the spreadsheet folks make all the bad decisions...

[OH FOY]

90% sure Anderson Espinoza had his 2nd TJS this year. Hasn't thrown a Pitch since 2017. Edited September 7, 2019 by OH FOY!

[Slasher9]

90% sure Anderson Espinoza had his 2nd TJS this year. Hasn't thrown a Pitch since 2017.

 

Yup. But would have preferred to use him to get Sale and still have moncada

[OH FOY]

Yup. But would have preferred to use him to get Sale and still have moncada

 

Still would have cost Moncada. They wanted established Higher Prospects. Espinoza was still a gamble at that point. Only doing good in the DSL.

[Bellhorn04]

Still would have cost Moncada. They wanted established Higher Prospects. Espinoza was still a gamble at that point. Only doing good in the DSL.

 

I think you're right.

[OH FOY]

Tell you one that pisses me off, was giving up Maurico Dubon, like he was a thrown in for Thornberg. Think he'll be even better then Hernandez, and I like him. Dubon has more Power and speed. Plays a good SS, besides 2nd. Just called up hit his 2nd HR last night off Kershaw.

That was an awesome team at Salem.

Moncada, Dubon and Benni. Only Benni left.

Dubon will be starting 2nd baseman for the Giants next year, with Panik gone.

Edited September 7, 2019 by OH FOY!

[notin]

Tell you one that pisses me off, was giving up Maurico Dubon, like he was a thrown in for Thornberg. Think he'll be even better then Hernandez, and I like him. Dubon has more Power and speed. Plays a good SS, besides 2nd. Just called up hit his 2nd HR last night off Kershaw.

That was an awesome team at Salem.

Moncada, Dubon and Benni. Only Benni left.

Dubon will be starting 2nd baseman for the Giants next year, with Panik gone.

 

It was a rare move where DD tried to build a killer bullpen and paid what it costs. Had Thornburg actually worked out, this would be different. Dubon was too much for a dirt cheap closer but Logan Allen was an acceptable throw-in for Kimbrel?

Edited September 7, 2019 by notin

[moonslav59]

Tell you one that pisses me off, was giving up Maurico Dubon, like he was a thrown in for Thornberg. Think he'll be even better then Hernandez, and I like him. Dubon has more Power and speed. Plays a good SS, besides 2nd. Just called up hit his 2nd HR last night off Kershaw.

That was an awesome team at Salem.

Moncada, Dubon and Benni. Only Benni left.

Dubon will be starting 2nd baseman for the Giants next year, with Panik gone.

 

We do have Devers "left," too.

 

I did not like the Thornburg deal, but even if he never repeated his numbers in Milwaukee, one could have expected better from him had he not gotten injured.

 

We also let Buttrey go before ever giving him a look-see.

[moonslav59]

Nobody knew Espinoza would get hurt.

 

Nobody knew Thornburg would get hurt.

 

Hindsight judgments are easy.

 

Had we not traded for Pom and trades Espy for Thornburg, nobody would be complaining, and we'd still have Dubon and Shaw.

[vegasbob]

We do have Devers "left," too.

 

I did not like the Thornburg deal, but even if he never repeated his numbers in Milwaukee, one could have expected better from him had he not gotten injured.

 

We also let Buttrey go before ever giving him a look-see.

 

Did Thornburg get injured while in competition ? I thought it was an existing condition, finally diagnosed as Thoracic Outlet Syndrome after it was obvious Tyler couldn't throw worth a damn in STY. In fact, it was initially blamed on Thornburg's lack of participation in the off season pitcher strength program. The reality---DD traded for a guy who had a medical condition whether Tyler himself or Milwaukee knew anything about it. I suspect Tyler did know something wasn't right.

[moonslav59]

Did Thornburg get injured while in competition ? I thought it was an existing condition, finally diagnosed as Thoracic Outlet Syndrome after it was obvious Tyler couldn't throw worth a damn in STY. In fact, it was initially blamed on Thornburg's lack of participation in the off season pitcher strength program. The reality---DD traded for a guy who had a medical condition whether Tyler himself or Milwaukee knew anything about it. I suspect Tyler did know something wasn't right.

 

That may be true, so my "nobody knew" statement may be flawed, but I don't think there was any way DD would know. It's not like routine medical examines look for obscure issues like his.

 

Fine. Blame DD for trading for damaged goods, but I choose to think of it as just bad luck.

 

I did think we overpaid, just like we did for Sale, Kimbrel, Pom and others before. My point was that nobody cares about the Pom trade because Espi has been hurt, yet they blame DD for Thornburg getting hurt and not giving us even decent innings.

[vegasbob]

That may be true, so my "nobody knew" statement may be flawed, but I don't think there was any way DD would know. It's not like routine medical examines look for obscure issues like his.

 

Fine. Blame DD for trading for damaged goods, but I choose to think of it as just bad luck.

 

I did think we overpaid, just like we did for Sale, Kimbrel, Pom and others before. My point was that nobody cares about the Pom trade because Espi has been hurt, yet they blame DD for Thornburg getting hurt and not giving us even decent innings.

 

Clearly DD did not know or the deal would not have been done. I don't blame him for the trade to try and build a bullpen in 2017 as part of a championship run. Dave regrettably continued his bad BP luck by counting on Thornburg and worse, Carson Smith , a true idiot.

[OH FOY]

Nobody knew Espinoza would get hurt.

 

Nobody knew Thornburg would get hurt.

 

Hindsight judgments are easy.

 

Had we not traded for Pom and trades Espy for Thornburg, nobody would be complaining, and we'd still have Dubon and Shaw.

 

Sort of like signing Moustakas and not signing Moreland. That would have been something stupid like Dombrowski, sign Moustakas, move him to third, knowing he never played 1st Base, then sign Moreland and Trade Devers for a Reliever.

Edited September 7, 2019 by OH FOY!

[OH FOY]

I have no hate for Moreland hit one of the most Clutch HR's, last WS as a pinch hitter. Huge HR too. Down 4-0 in the 6th inning. That 3 Run HR, was big. Night before they won after 18, lose that game, and it was tied 2-2. Won 9-6 so it was still a big HR, those 3 runs contributed.

Nobody expected to have Pearce break down like he did, happens.

Edited September 7, 2019 by OH FOY!

[moonslav59]

Sort of like signing Moustakas and not signing Moreland. That would have been something stupid like Dombrowski, sign Moustakas, move him to third, knowing he never played 1st Base, then sign Moreland and Trade Devers for a Reliever.

 

Moose played some games at 2B, this year (40 GS'd).

 

I wanted to sign him and either have him play 1B or move Devers there.