Who’s to blame...

[jacksonianmarch]

So, you don't think that having your starters regularly get deeper into games helps the pen's effectiveness?

 

The trend for starters is to be on the hot seat the third time through the lineup and not see the same lineup 4 times. This is driven by analytics, so the idea that the sox rotation will all of a sudden start throwing more pitches is fallacy. Where they could improve is being more economical, but I don't see that happening. If anything, Sale is set to be less economical in becoming a crafty lefty. Price is less economical now as he is a crafty lefty. ERod by his own nature is not economical. Eovaldi can be, but he doesn't stay healthy and always seems to find the one big inning that knocks him out.

[dgalehouse]

That, alone, is very significant.

 

Also, one less inning for the pen means your worst RP'er never comes in.

 

Our 7th and 8th best pen guys have sucked way more than the sucky 4-6th best RP'ers.

 

Here's our pen numbers in order of IP'd:

 

ERA RP'er WHIP

 

3.56 Walden 1.096

2.03 Workman 1.027

4.31 Brewer 1.750

4.36 Barnes 1.338

(Had we only needed these 4 guys plus maybe Taylor, in close games, we'd have been better off.)

 

4.46 Brasier 1.215

4.06 Hembree 1.381

3.95 JTaylor 1.390

 

 

4.50 Velazquez 1.333

7.71 Thornburg 1.661

 

 

How deep the starters go is often the manager's call . The trend seems to be that they are happy with six innings. Even then , you have to count on three relievers doing the job . The Sox have not had that . Hence , the high percentage of blown saves . If we had a couple more high quality relievers , the least capable guys would not even be on the team . That is the heart of the problem. Not enough quality arms.

[moonslav59]

How deep the starters go is often the manager's call . The trend seems to be that they are happy with six innings. Even then , you have to count on three relievers doing the job . The Sox have not had that . Hence , the high percentage of blown saves . If we had a couple more high quality relievers , the least capable guys would not even be on the team . That is the heart of the problem. Not enough quality arms.

 

I agree 100%, but my point was that there is a big drop off from our top 5 RP'ers (Workman, Barnes, Walden, Taylor and Hembree) and the next 3-5 (Brasier, Velazquez & Brewer).

 

Had we been able to limit the IP of our worst RP'ers, we may not have had as many blown saves.

 

This doesn't change the fact that our pen sucked and needed at least 2 more quality arms.

 

[oldtimer]

I agree 100%, but my point was that there is a big drop off from our top 5 RP'ers (Workman, Barnes, Walden, Taylor and Hembree) and the next 3-5 (Brasier, Velazquez & Brewer).

 

Had we been able to limit the IP of our worst RP'ers, we may not have had as many blown saves.

 

This doesn't change the fact that our pen sucked and needed at least 2 more quality arms.

 

 

True, but using the pen hard when our starter often don't go 5 innings and need 4 relievers nightly puts a heck of a wear factor on our best and is probably not sustainable over the long season. Having starters who often can go 7 innings can help the BP demonstrate sustained good performance.

[SoxHop]

Personally. I blame the ding-dong starting pitchers.

 

Which I have to ask if pitching deep into last year didn't take a toll on those whimps.

[jacksonianmarch]

True, but using the pen hard when our starter often don't go 5 innings and need 4 relievers nightly puts a heck of a wear factor on our best and is probably not sustainable over the long season. Having starters who often can go 7 innings can help the BP demonstrate sustained good performance.

 

Starters don't go 7 anymore

[oldtimer]

Our starters, other than e-rod can't go 5.

[Swiharts Ghost]

Who's in charge of pitching ? Fire that idiot .

[jad]

Only two differences from me and DD. And both of these I said BEFORE their occurrences and not after.

 

1) I'd sign one good solid reliever or at least wd have traded for one at the deadline.

 

2) I'd have extended Sale with a 3 year 75 million contract as opposed to 4 years at 116 million. May I turn out to be wrong on this account. But Sale has always pitched best, it seems, in the shadows, and underpaid, so this contract makes me nervous on a few accounts.

 

Beyond these two things, the season itself is a mystery to me, but I have no insight into how the players fit with one another.

 

I'd love to be at the meeting where you pitch this to Sale and his agent: "Look, we only have your legacy in mind, and you have ALWAYS played better underpaid. Forget about the market or what your team-mates make ..."

[cp176]

I'd love to be at the meeting where you pitch this to Sale and his agent: "Look, we only have your legacy in mind, and you have ALWAYS played better underpaid. Forget about the market or what your team-mates make ..."

 

Is this a suggestion that Sale is more concerned with the money he makes as opposed to his performance? It's a joke right? nice one - lol

[jacksonianmarch]

I’m not sure how Levangie still has a job. This season is lost for the Sox due to pitching and he’s in charge of the pitching.

[jung]

The TREND is pitching to velo and spin rate while throwing command out the window. As long as pitchers cannot command their pitches and continue to be prompted toward velo and spin rate and away from command we will never go back to anything like Starting pitchers even going 6, never mind 7. Has nothing to do with the analytics. Analytics just keeps score....thats it. Analytics don't guide pitching approach. Young pitchers simply are so driven by coaches and media and the MLB which really rules baseball and determines what matters in baseball simply by what it says matters in baseball, this is not going to turn around. MLB is trying to turn the game into a power game from both mound and batters box. Its as plain as the nose on your face. They don't give a rats behind about the consequences. They will simply come up with some new marketing game when this one has run its course.

 

These guys are in the main throwing too hard for their techniques and their physical characteristics. Hence they break down sooner. What does MLB do? It brings up guys that should not be here at all to backfill from the casualty rate. This is a vicious cycle and not more than a vicious cycle.

 

When an organization gives a contract to a guy they have never seen throw before because he throws 96 out in the carnival they all now have at the front gate to their parks, there is something desperately wrong.

 

I have pointed this out before but anybody who got a chance to see Nolan Ryan throw in person and close up and is not an actual baseball player came away from that experience stunned that any hitter stood in against the kind of momentum that guy unleashed toward home plate. That is a guy that could throw hard FOREVER. You don't have to be Nolan to throw hard but if you are going to throw hard mainly throwing with your arm and shoulder forget it....you are going to wear OUT. I don't care who you are. We have too many guys throwing hard without proper technique and without the physical characteristics to throw hard for very long and frankly nobody cares. Well we are eventually going to see what kind of game baseball is without pitchers.

Edited August 5, 2019 by jung

[cp176]

The TREND is pitching to velo and spin rate while throwing command out the window. As long as pitchers cannot command their pitches and continue to be prompted toward velo and spin rate and away from command we will never go back to anything like Starting pitchers even going 6, never mind 7. Has nothing to do with the analytics. Analytics just keeps score....thats it. Analytics don't guide pitching approach. Young pitchers simply are so driven by coaches and media and the MLB which really rules baseball and determines what matters in baseball simply by what it says matters in baseball, this is not going to turn around. MLB is trying to turn the game into a power game from both mound and batters box. Its as plain as the nose on your face. They don't give a rats behind about the consequences. They will simply come up with some new marketing game when this one has run its course.

 

These guys are in the main throwing too hard for their techniques and their physical characteristics. Hence they break down sooner. What does MLB do? It brings up guys that should not be here at all to backfill from the casualty rate. This is a vicious cycle and not more than a vicious cycle.

 

When an organization gives a contract to a guy they have never seen throw before because he throws 96 out in the carnival they all now have at the front gate to their parks, there is something desperately wrong.

 

I have pointed this out before but anybody who got a chance to see Nolan Ryan throw in person and close up and is not an actual baseball player came away from that experience stunned that any hitter stood in against the kind of momentum that guy unleashed toward home plate. That is a guy that could throw hard FOREVER. You don't have to be Nolan to throw hard but if you are going to throw hard mainly throwing with your arm and shoulder forget it....you are going to wear OUT. I don't care who you are. We have too many guys throwing hard without proper technique and without the physical characteristics to throw hard for very long and frankly nobody cares. Well we are eventually going to see what kind of game baseball is without pitchers.

 

I think that I agree with just about everything here.

[jad]

Is this a suggestion that Sale is more concerned with the money he makes as opposed to his performance? It's a joke right? nice one - lol

 

As Charles Barkley so wisely said, players care about 3 things: money, winning, and minutes ... in that order. I am also saying that Chris Sale is not a complete idiot: he would never accept the logic (nor would you), that his performance would be better if he were paid less. How would you react if your boss suggested that to you?

[cp176]

As Charles Barkley so wisely said, players care about 3 things: money, winning, and minutes ... in that order. I am also saying that Chris Sale is not a complete idiot: he would never accept the logic (nor would you), that his performance would be better if he were paid less. How would you react if your boss suggested that to you?

 

Guess I missed something. I haven't been too interested in reading much of what has been posted lately. Did the people in charge suggest to Chris Sale that he would be a better pitcher if he hadn't renegotiated his contract?

By the way, I get a kick out of Charles Barkley. I like the guy but wisdom isn't the word that pops into my head when I hear from him.

[kenmeister]

Sale got 5 yrs and $145 mil which starts next year

 

Ugh. Crippling.

[Nick]

Chris Sale flopping against the Yankees in primetime a week ago meant the Sox couldn’t finish a sweep and the team has stumbled since. The rotation has been a major liability, with David Price’s seven runs in 2 2/3 innings Sunday night putting the rotation’s ERA at 10.61 over the last eight games (44 runs in 37 1/3 innings).

 

“For myself and the rest of our starters, it’s been a tough stretch for us for sure,” Price said. “We haven’t thrown the ball to our capabilities the last eight or nine games and for the most part this season. That has been tough for us.”

 

Who to blame? We led 2nd wild card spot by 1/2 game. Then this. Rotation ERA of 10.61. Do you really have to look elsewhere?

[Nick]

Guess I missed something. I haven't been too interested in reading much of what has been posted lately. Did the people in charge suggest to Chris Sale that he would be a better pitcher if he hadn't renegotiated his contract?

By the way, I get a kick out of Charles Barkley. I like the guy but wisdom isn't the word that pops into my head when I hear from him.

 

Yeah, it makes no sense. Using his logic, Sale should be a Cy Young candidate this year. Woefully underpaid at $15M while his rotation mates are making $30M, $22M and $17M.

[jung]

I really don't like to go start by start but I am actually more concerned with Price than Sale. Both are transitioning. Neither can throw as hard as he could throw earlier in their careers. Sale is overthrowing to hit velo he could hit repeatedly early in his career and he has clearly not even admitted to himself what is happening yet.

 

I thought Price was farther down the road by maybe two years or more from where Sale was......until Price's last few starts.

 

The last start, he had ERod to show him what to do to get Yankee hitters out and in fact for a brief moment Price was doing it. If you read last night's game thread, I told him what to do though I have no telepathic powers. Get to that change when you get to two strikes and bury it in the dirt. DO NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO THROW IT FOR A STRIKE. They will just chase it all night long. Yankee fans are kidding themselves that the Yanks are more than a good team. They aren't.

 

What does Price do? He loses command of the Change and ends up throwing it in the strike zone and he won't stop. Either he lost command of it or got frustrated because the Yankee hitters would not chase every single one. They are not going to chase every single one YOU IDIOT. The Yanks crush the thing at one point recording 5 or maybe 6 straight hits. Price ends up giving up 7 runs in less than 4 innings.The start before that, Price decides to try to throw his FB 94-95. That lasts all of about 1 and 1/3 innings. His FB flattens out....bing bang bong.....balls start flying all over the place. That is the end of that start.

 

I don't know what is going on with Price. Maybe he is trying to throw his way out of town. Would not surprise me as he can't keep his mouth shut. He can't stop being a confrontational prick (remember "I hold all the cards now and it feels good") f*** you David. You can't even WIN with dignity, let alone loss with dignity.

 

Sale for his part, might be groping for a FB for at least an entire offseason. I would give him one more start at most and if there is not a significant change (there won't be) shut him down for the remainder of the year.

 

I would shut down Price as well if not for the thought that he might just throw and talk his way out of town and if that is what he wants, the way MLB is set up, there is really not much we can do about it other than let him go and take the financial hit. Better to know if that is Price's intention.

Edited August 5, 2019 by jung

[kenmeister]

I have to reluctantly agree that you can't keep running Sale & Price out for starts where they are blown out in the 3rd or 4th innings. They dropped from aces to not even being capable major league starters. I have whiplash. Sale I think could still thrive as a reliever. Price, gosh I just don't know what to do with him.

[oldtimer]

I have to reluctantly agree that you can't keep running Sale & Price out for starts where they are blown out in the 3rd or 4th innings. They dropped from aces to not even being capable major league starters. I have whiplash. Sale I think could still thrive as a reliever. Price, gosh I just don't know what to do with him.

 

One thing to do is pay him his $32 mil for a couple more years. Too bad they don't sell performance insurance so that if the ERA gets above a certain amount the insurance company would have to take on the contract.

[jacksonianmarch]

Yankee fans are kidding themselves about their team being just good? Are you really believing that drivel. We just ended the season of the defending world champions and essentially pushed you off a cliff with a team of AAA players. Our “terrible rotation” was a single pitch away last night from holding the Sox to under 2 runs in each game of this four game set. We didn’t even use our pen last night beyond guys who are second line and we still shut you down. When we get healthy, we are gonna be a challenge for any team in the playoffs

[jung]

Yankee fans are kidding themselves about their team being just good? Are you really believing that drivel. We just ended the season of the defending world champions and essentially pushed you off a cliff with a team of AAA players. Our “terrible rotation” was a single pitch away last night from holding the Sox to under 2 runs in each game of this four game set. We didn’t even use our pen last night beyond guys who are second line and we still shut you down. When we get healthy, we are gonna be a challenge for any team in the playoffs

 

We pushed ourselves off a cliff. Live with your fantasy before the Astros get to you.

[Bellhorn04]

Live with your fantasy before the Astros get to you.

 

People were saying that to us last year, too.

[jung]

People were saying that to us last year, too.

 

We ran up against a crippled Astros team which everybody around here decided to deny was a factor. Won't be the case this year unless the Astros suffer multiple late season injuries.

 

The Yankmees are a good but not great team. Sorry...they just aren't. Their hitters swing at everything and will chase like a trout after a fly. Their starters are nothing to write home about. They are a bullpen.

[Bellhorn04]

We ran up against a crippled Astros team which everybody around here decided to deny was a factor. Won't be the case this year unless the Astros suffer multiple late season injuries.

 

That Astros team was far from 'crippled', jung.

[jung]

That Astros team was far from 'crippled', jung.

 

Altuve could not run with his leg issues and Correa could not hit with his back. They were not even half of what they could be and in fact Springer went down with injury during that series. So cut Mookie and JD in half and take either this year's rafi or X out of our lineup and what do you have?

 

In fact, the Astros were so crippled that they had to move Bergman around he tried to do too much to make up for their lost personnel, which is what we would have to do. So effectively when you lose the effectiveness of three of your top players you really lose four because the guy that is left tries too hard to make up for it.

Edited August 5, 2019 by jung

[Bellhorn04]

Altuve could not run with his leg issues and Correa could not hit with his back. They were not even half of what they could be and in fact Springer went down with injury during that series. So cut Mookie and JD in half and take either this year's rafi or X out of our lineup and what do you have?

 

Pitching generally wins in the playoffs.

[jung]

Pitching generally wins in the playoffs.

 

To a degree that is true. But you cannot take three of your four top offensive producers down leaving the fourth to try to make up for it because effectively now you have significantly diminished the effectiveness of the top four offensive producers on your team.

 

"In fact, the Astros were so crippled that they had to move Bergman around he tried to do too much to make up for their lost personnel, which is what we would have to do. So effectively when you lose the effectiveness of three of your top offensive players you really lose four because the guy that is left tries too hard to make up for it."

[jacksonianmarch]

And yet the Sox bludgeoned them and beat them with offense, good D and a timely arrival to the postseason of one David Price. Even with Greinke, they’re not invincible. We got swept in Houston in April and were winning all three of those games. We s*** all over them in a 4 gamer in the Bronx later in the year and took 3 in a row before Boone rested the regulars in game 4 and Justin Verlander beat us. We can beat anyone, especially if we get healthy between now and Oct 1