Who’s to blame...

[moonslav59]

Our "bullpen" numbers are heavily skewed by our opener strategy. For the most part, the only guys who are gonna see the light of day in a playoff game where the game hangs in the balance will be Kahnle, Britton, Ottavino, Chapman, and Betances (assuming he is healthy). Green would be next up on that list as he was absolutely horrible in April, wasn't great in May and has been lights out the last 2.5 months

 

Tampa's number's aren't "skewed", too?

 

The Sox have often used the 5th starter for 1-3 IP, regardless of how well they were doing.

[dannycater]

At the end of wins over the past few years, the Betts-Bradley-Beni show would do the movie star of who was the best in the game, then they modified it, and this year when they do get together it's a sort of touch of gloves but it looks like the fun is gone. That's another reason the Sox suck. Team lost its silliness, sense of humor. People are too serious again, Betts included.

[jacksonianmarch]

Tampa's number's aren't "skewed", too?

 

The Sox have often used the 5th starter for 1-3 IP, regardless of how well they were doing.

 

Tampa's numbers are almost entirely unusable. That being said, their pen is gonna look pretty good when you have Yarborough throwing to a 3.5 ERA and having almost all of them count in relief.

[jacksonianmarch]

Tampa's number's aren't "skewed", too?

 

The Sox have often used the 5th starter for 1-3 IP, regardless of how well they were doing.

 

Also, find me a team with a better bridge and closer. Find me a team capable of running 5 guys out there in a row with this type of dominance. 6 if you believe in Green's last 2.5 months

[OH FOY]

Sox were 6 in the loss Column for final WC after getting beat by Rays and Yanks, then they played 7 games against (1 suspended), against 2 weak teams KC, and Angels. Now they are 8 in the loss column. It was not over after Yankee series, it is now for sure, and I'm with DC on this Cora gave up.

6 in the loss Column with 9 weeks to play and Fans said it is over. Never understood that. The last WC gives that hope. Your not going for Division.

Its now 8 in the loss column with 8 weeks to play. If your not playing to win, just to rest, now its over.

[moonslav59]

Also, find me a team with a better bridge and closer. Find me a team capable of running 5 guys out there in a row with this type of dominance. 6 if you believe in Green's last 2.5 months

 

I never said the Yankee pen was not the best. I just pointed out that several numbers show other teams are close or even better in some area.

 

IMO, the Yanks have the best pen- just like the Sox have a better rotation, despite several meltdowns.

 

I have no problem saying the Yanks are better is some areas.

[moonslav59]

Sox were 6 in the loss Column for final WC after getting beat by Rays and Yanks, then they played 7 games against (1 suspended), against 2 weak teams KC, and Angels. Now they are 8 in the loss column. It was not over after Yankee series, it is now for sure, and I'm with DC on this Cora gave up.

6 in the loss Column with 9 weeks to play and Fans said it is over. Never understood that. The last WC gives that hope. Your not going for Division.

Its now 8 in the loss column with 8 weeks to play. If your not playing to win, just to rest, now its over.

 

It's not hard to understand. We were a beaten and defeated team after the sweeps. It was over then just as much as it is over now.

 

Yes, miracles happen, but this team has shown no signs of having miracle worthiness.

[oldtimer]

It's not hard to understand. We were a beaten and defeated team after the sweeps. It was over then just as much as it is over now.

 

Yes, miracles happen, but this team has shown no signs of having miracle worthiness.

 

The original question of this string was "Who was to Blame?" I am not into the blame game but am into what do we do and who do we need to make those moves going forward? I think that is more of a positive approach. I have said I don't think DD has the right kind of qualities to lead a rebuilding team. He did whaqat he did and we had some success but not it is about strengthening the pitching staff, the farm system and being willing to trade or let go of older players and nnon performers who won't be around in 2021 and beyond.

 

I wouldn't have said a week ago that I am losing confidence in Cora and the coaching staff, but there have been silly moves and widespread underperformances. Got to wonder if the pitching staff has been well led and/or if there is some sort of internal issue in the clubhouse. I am willing to go another year with our manager and coaching staff, but I don't think they will all survive such a poor team performance this year.

 

I don't blame the players, they are who they are unless there is a curmudgeon stirring unrest. If so, we should get rid of that person or persons. I do think we should get rid of underperformers this off season.

[moonslav59]

The original question of this string was "Who was to Blame?" I am not into the blame game but am into what do we do and who do we need to make those moves going forward? I think that is more of a positive approach. I have said I don't think DD has the right kind of qualities to lead a rebuilding team. He did whaqat he did and we had some success but not it is about strengthening the pitching staff, the farm system and being willing to trade or let go of older players and nnon performers who won't be around in 2021 and beyond.

 

I wouldn't have said a week ago that I am losing confidence in Cora and the coaching staff, but there have been silly moves and widespread underperformances. Got to wonder if the pitching staff has been well led and/or if there is some sort of internal issue in the clubhouse. I am willing to go another year with our manager and coaching staff, but I don't think they will all survive such a poor team performance this year.

 

I don't blame the players, they are who they are unless there is a curmudgeon stirring unrest. If so, we should get rid of that person or persons. I do think we should get rid of underperformers this off season.

 

I'm all for getting rid of every player not part of the 2021 and beyond plan.

 

I'd keep Cora and dump DD for the rebuild.

 

I'd try to set us up to be back to contention by 2021, but I realize it may take longer.

 

I'm not sure about trading ERod, Workman and Barnes- all FAs after 2021, but it makes some sense, if we really want to totally rebuild. They all have trade value, unlike some of our FA's to be after 2020, Betts not included. (I'd look to trade Betts, if we think we can't re-sign him after the reset of 2020.)

 

As for the "blame," I'm not big on it either, but I'd say...

 

1) The rotation

2) The pen

3) The GM

4) The Yanks, Astros, Rays and Twins just got so much better.

[jung]

 

I'd try to set us up to be back to contention by 2021, but I realize it may take longer.

 

 

 

The DD tax now coming due.

[oldtimer]

I'm all for getting rid of every player not part of the 2021 and beyond plan.

 

I'd keep Cora and dump DD for the rebuild.

 

I'd try to set us up to be back to contention by 2021, but I realize it may take longer.

 

I'm not sure about trading ERod, Workman and Barnes- all FAs after 2021, but it makes some sense, if we really want to totally rebuild. They all have trade value, unlike some of our FA's to be after 2020, Betts not included. (I'd look to trade Betts, if we think we can't re-sign him after the reset of 2020.)

 

As for the "blame," I'm not big on it either, but I'd say...

 

1) The rotation

2) The pen

3) The GM

4) The Yanks, Astros, Rays and Twins just got so much better.

 

E-Rod is a nibbler who hasn't changed now in several years. He is still fairly young and may just be our most effective pitcher. We might not do better in a trade. Workman is fairly inexpensive and would be a good keep to help the team not totally bomb in 2020. Barnes is a head scratcher who seems unable to do well under pressure. BP guys are known to be volatile and he is that. He has a major league arm and someone may want him. I would certainly consider a trade in his case and in Hembree's case.

 

Generally we think alike on the reset and restructure. Cora hasn't looked all that clever this year but I'm not for dumping him in 2020.

[dannycater]

EROD still has 13 wins and is one of the few SPs who has at least been competitive.

[notin]

The original question of this string was "Who was to Blame?" I am not into the blame game but am into what do we do and who do we need to make those moves going forward? I think that is more of a positive approach. I have said I don't think DD has the right kind of qualities to lead a rebuilding team. He did whaqat he did and we had some success but not it is about strengthening the pitching staff, the farm system and being willing to trade or let go of older players and nnon performers who won't be around in 2021 and beyond.

 

I wouldn't have said a week ago that I am losing confidence in Cora and the coaching staff, but there have been silly moves and widespread underperformances. Got to wonder if the pitching staff has been well led and/or if there is some sort of internal issue in the clubhouse. I am willing to go another year with our manager and coaching staff, but I don't think they will all survive such a poor team performance this year.

 

I don't blame the players, they are who they are unless there is a curmudgeon stirring unrest. If so, we should get rid of that person or persons. I do think we should get rid of underperformers this off season.

 

Really? Not even a little?

 

I think they’re the biggest culprits, but you can’t simply tell them “do your job right” and expect it to make a difference. Now the same isn’t necessarily true for DD and Cora...

[Elktonnick]

As for DD, I think he handled this year exactly the way John Henry wanted him to. Henry obviously is nobody's fool. He knew the financial situation better than anyone. They gambled that they could make minimal changes and still make the playoffs in a relatively weak division compared to years past. Well it didn't pan out. As much as we fans want a scalp no one in management is likely to lose their job over this years poor performance save perhaps Dana Lavangie the pitching coach who was an odd choice in the first place.

 

There will be many changes over the winter in the 40 man roster but I wouldn't expect there to be any major trades of the core players, meaning anyone whose last name begins with a B. This coming winter like last the Sox will be looking for pitching and a possible 2nd baseman. That's where the moves will be made and DD will the one charged with making those moves. I expect Cora will be retained but kept on a very short leash. I do not expect there will be a repetition of last year's spring time leisure camp.

[Bellhorn04]

As for DD, I think he handled this year exactly the way John Henry wanted him to. Henry obviously is nobody's fool. He knew the financial situation better than anyone. They gambled that they could make minimal changes and still make the playoffs in a relatively weak division compared to years past. Well it didn't pan out. As much as we fans want a scalp no one in management is likely to lose their job over this years poor performance save perhaps Dana Lavangie the pitching coach who was an odd choice in the first place.

 

There will be many changes over the winter in the 40 man roster but I wouldn't expect there to be any major trades of the core players, meaning anyone whose last name begins with a B. This coming winter like last the Sox will be looking for pitching and a possible 2nd baseman. That's where the moves will be made and DD will the one charged with making those moves. I expect Cora will be retained but kept on a very short leash. I do not expect there will be a repetition of last year's spring time leisure camp.

 

Were you aware that Shaughnessy thinks DD is a goner?

[moonslav59]

E-Rod is a nibbler who hasn't changed now in several years. He is still fairly young and may just be our most effective pitcher. We might not do better in a trade. Workman is fairly inexpensive and would be a good keep to help the team not totally bomb in 2020. Barnes is a head scratcher who seems unable to do well under pressure. BP guys are known to be volatile and he is that. He has a major league arm and someone may want him. I would certainly consider a trade in his case and in Hembree's case.

 

Generally we think alike on the reset and restructure. Cora hasn't looked all that clever this year but I'm not for dumping him in 2020.

 

Yes, ERod is a "nibbler," but he has some of the nastiest stuff on the staff. He's also improved on his IP'd, slightly. Trading ERod only makes sense, if we are looking for a 2-3 year rebuild, not the one year plan I'm thinking might be possible (reset in 2020).

 

I love Workman, but he's a FA after 2021. He has trade value, too. If we plan to be highly competitive by 2021, he'll have 1 year in the next window.

 

Barnes has seen his stock fall. I'd keep him, in hopes he improves and can help in 2021 or be traded next July.

 

Hembree's stock is low, too. I keep thinking we'll see his upside, and maybe we started to this year, but who knows. I would not trade him for scars, unless it puts us under the tax line.

 

[Elktonnick]

Were you aware that Shaughnessy thinks DD is a goner?

 

Yes I was. I almost put in the post words to the effect despite Dan Shaughnessy's views. The reason why I think Shaughnessy is wrong is Dombrowski has had a long standing relationship with Henry. No way would have DD brought in Tony LaRussa without clearing it with Henry who grew up as a Cardinal fan. Shaughnessy specifically cited LaRussa close relationship with DD as one of the reasons DD was isolating himself from others in Red Sox baseball ops.

 

DD is too smart and been around too long not to have outlined his approach to this year to Henry well before the season began. Henry's only public comments about this year appear to have been more of a critique of Cora than of DD. Plus replacing a head of baseball operations such as Dombrowski is a lot riskier than replacing a field manager. There are many excellent potential candidates who could be more than adequate to fill Cora's shoe should Henry be so inclined which I don't seriously think he is after only one bad year.

 

Replacing a head of baseball ops is a whole other kettle of fish, the list of truly viable candidates is quite small. Plus as in the case of Theo Epstien, and Ben Cherrington, Henry would make no such move unless he had a replacement in mind and would be reasonably assured that his preferred replacement was ready willing and able to take the job. The baseball fraternity is quite small, I am positive we would have heard rumblings about such a move from some one other than Dan Shaughnessy who despite being a Globe employee I don't think is on Henry list of trusted confidantes especially after he co authored Terry Francona's book which didn't cast Red Sox ownership in the most favorable light.

 

That being said this all speculative and like reading the tea leaves much like trying to determine who was on the way up and who was on their way out in the old Soviet Union by their position on top of the Kremlin wall during May Day parades just after Stalin's death.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Elktonnick

[notin]

 

DD is too smart and been around too long not to have outlined his approach to this year to Henry well before the season.

 

A grand total of 1 slide in that PowerPoint...

[jacksonianmarch]

Yes I was. I almost put in the post words to the effect despite Dan Shaughnessy's views. The reason why I think Shaughnessy is wrong is Dombrowski has had a long standing relationship with Henry. No way would have DD brought in Tony LaRussa without clearing it with Henry who grew up as a Cardinal fan. Shaughnessy specifically cited LaRussa close relationship with DD as one of the reasons DD was isolating himself from others in Red Sox baseball ops.

 

DD is too smart and been around too long not to have outlined his approach to this year to Henry well before the season began. Henry's only public comments about this year appear to have been more of a critique of Cora than of DD. Plus replacing a head of baseball operations such as Dombrowski is a lot riskier than replacing a field manager. There are many excellent potential candidates who could be more than adequate to fill Cora's shoe should Henry be so inclined which I don't seriously think he is after only one bad year.

 

Replacing a head of baseball ops is a whole other kettle of fish, the list of truly viable candidates is quite small. Plus as in the case of Theo Epstien, and Ben Cherrington, Henry would make no such move unless he had a replacement in mind and would be reasonably assured that his preferred replacement was ready willing and able to take the job. The baseball fraternity is quite small, I am positive we would have heard rumblings about such a move from some one other than Dan Shaughnessy who despite being a Globe employee I don't think is on Henry list of trusted confidantes especially after he co authored Terry Francona's book which didn't cast Red Sox ownership in the most favorable light.

 

That being said this all speculative and like reading the tea leaves much like trying to determine who was on the way up and who was on their way out in the old Soviet Union by their position on top of the Kremlin wall during May Day parades just after Stalin's death.

 

DD has been around too long not to see the writing on the wall. DD knows the destruction he leaves. Look at the Tigers? They're still a mess and headed for the 1st pick in the draft for the second time in 3 years. It's hard to be worse than Baltimore, but they are. DD leaves a dead farm system, a high cap numbers and a roster full of overpaid former superstars. The only saving grace for DD here is that the roster currently has in prime or before prime superstars on the roster. The best of which needs to get paid in Mookie. DD knew what he was signing up for. Henry knew what he was signing up for. I guarantee you Henry and DD had a chat that went something similar to this.

 

H "Hey DD, can you take this underachieving major league roster and top 5 farm system and win a title?"

 

DD "Why yes, John, I can. I can turn them into AL East champs overnight. We will have a 3-4 year window during which I bet we have a shot at a title or two."

 

H "That sounds fantastic, we have seen the basement two years in a row and I need the fans to come back to Fenway. Our sellout streak is over and people are flocking to the Pats and C's"

 

DD "Now, you know I won't be sticking around for the rebuild. I am going to deal all the prospects except the ones I want in Boston. I am going to spend a massive amount of money, we good"

 

H "You're hired!"