A Realistic View at 2019: Part II

[Maxbialystock]

Very true, although if having someone like Martinez at DH alloows the #9 hitter to be some Nick Ahmed type at SS with less risk offensively, that counters the defense issue...

 

Reminds me of the argument/discussion back in 2013 when the Sox had three SS's--Bogie (who played 3B now and then), Iglesias (a brilliant defensive SS) and Drew, who was the primary starting SS. The Sox wanted one more starter and o/a 1 August trade Igelesias to the Tigers, who later met the Sox in the ALCS with Iglesias as their starting SS.

 

I hated losing Iglesias, who to me was like having another Ozzie Smith, but have to admit that over the years Bogie has been far more valuable to the Sox than Iglesias has been to the Tigers.

 

And this. Last year the Sox hit pretty well, but it was nevertheless an unending litany on talksox that the bottom of the order was just killing us.

[Bellhorn04]

I hope JD's opt-in doesn't turn out to be one more GIFT. May he play out the full season with eyes on either his next contract or a lower payout here.

 

I'm not sure why JDM is being questioned so much. He was fantastic last year and he's been very good this year.

[notin]

I'm not sure why JDM is being questioned so much. He was fantastic last year and he's been very good this year.

 

No problem with JDM. But maybe some question why he makes so much more than Ortiz did...

[Bellhorn04]

No problem with JDM. But maybe some question why he makes so much more than Ortiz did...

 

I think it's fair to say Ortiz gave us a discount.

[Slasher9]

Reminds me of the argument/discussion back in 2013 when the Sox had three SS's--Bogie (who played 3B now and then), Iglesias (a brilliant defensive SS) and Drew, who was the primary starting SS.

.

 

the S5 dog whistle.

[fxkatt]

I'm not sure why JDM is being questioned so much. He was fantastic last year and he's been very good this year.

 

I meant more team dead money... not based JD's season this year, but on the general drift of the team. As in, he gets injured in spring training or some such.. was referring to the word "Gifted" in the contract description.

Edited August 21, 2019 by fxkatt

[S5Dewey]

the S5 dog whistle.

 

Ok, I was going to give him a pass on this, but since you brought it up...

 

I was never in favor of trading either of them. Bogaerts @ 3b & Iggy @ SS. And I still haven't changed my mind that it was the best strategy. (And please don't be playing Nostradamus and say that he would have blocked Devers. Please.)

[S5Dewey]

I would point out having a good dedicated DH can help defensively, as it allows for a good glove/no hit player at a key defensive position without really killing the team offensively.

 

You mean like.... JBJ? No, because he's not "No hit". He's just streaky.

[moonslav59]

Ok, I was going to give him a pass on this, but since you brought it up...

 

I was never in favor of trading either of them. Bogaerts @ 3b & Iggy @ SS. And I still haven't changed my mind that it was the best strategy. (And please don't be playing Nostradamus and say that he would have blocked Devers. Please.)

 

We've always seen eye to eye on this one. 100%.

 

[moonslav59]

I meant more team dead money... not based JD's season this year, but on the general drift of the team. As in, he gets injured in spring training or some such.. was referring to the word "Gifted" in the contract description.

 

Rumors of JD's death have been greatly exaggerated!

[moonslav59]

You mean like.... JBJ? No, because he's not "No hit". He's just streaky.

 

Maybe another hot streak is just beginning, and I can eat crow after we streak to the playoffs.

 

Or not.

[moonslav59]

You mean like.... JBJ? No, because he's not "No hit". He's just streaky.

 

Would his arb be much lower, if he ends up at .699 this year?

[FredLynn]

You mean like.... JBJ? No, because he's not "No hit". He's just streaky.

 

No, its because overall he sucks with a bat in his hands. He hasn't had an OPS+ year over 100 (=average) since 2016. Even his dWAR is just 0.4 this year-hardly stellar. Yes, I do like him in CF, but I will not miss him next year when he is (hopefully) gone. There are lots of good defensive CF out there and in the rebuilding process hopefully we will find one who can also hit the baseball.

[Maxbialystock]

Ok, I was going to give him a pass on this, but since you brought it up...

 

I was never in favor of trading either of them. Bogaerts @ 3b & Iggy @ SS. And I still haven't changed my mind that it was the best strategy. (And please don't be playing Nostradamus and say that he would have blocked Devers. Please.)

 

I thought the idea of the 2013 trade was to get some insurance for the pennant and the postseason, and I could swear 2013 had a pretty good outcome for which Iglesias was absolutely not needed because the Sox had two SS’s without him. Also, there was no guarantee Bogie would be better at 3b than at SS. Remember all the complaints about Devers at 3b?

 

Also, why don’t the Tigers pay Iglesias more if they love him so much and other teams are trying to get him? One reason is his hitting, and the other is he is injury prone. That was my gripe with JD Drew, a much better player than Iglesias.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Maxbialystock

[jad]

You mean like.... JBJ? No, because he's not "No hit". He's just streaky.

 

I was about to say "Why can't he be both?" (given that it's hard to give a .220 hitter the benefit of the doubt). ... So just as I was typing that, he hits one out.

[S5Dewey]

No, its because overall he sucks with a bat in his hands. He hasn't had an OPS+ year over 100 (=average) since 2016. Even his dWAR is just 0.4 this year-hardly stellar. Yes, I do like him in CF, but I will not miss him next year when he is (hopefully) gone. There are lots of good defensive CF out there and in the rebuilding process hopefully we will find one who can also hit the baseball.

 

But Notin's point was that having an excellent DH allows a team to carry a weaker offensive player who's a wizard in the field.

[moonslav59]

But Notin's point was that having an excellent DH allows a team to carry a weaker offensive player who's a wizard in the field.

 

Like Leon?

[moonslav59]

I thought the idea of the 2013 trade was to get some insurance for the pennant and the postseason, and I could swear 2013 had a pretty good outcome for which Iglesias was absolutely not needed because the Sox had two SS’s without him. Also, there was no guarantee Bogie would be better at 3b than at SS. Remember all the complaints about Devers at 3b?

 

Also, why don’t the Tigers pay Iglesias more if they love him so much and other teams are trying to get him? One reason is his hitting, and the other is he is injury prone. That was my gripe with JD Drew, a much better player than Iglesias.

 

The funny thing about 2013 was that Iggy out OPS'd Stephen Drew .785 to.777. Then, Drew fell off a cliff at the plate- going 6-54 in the playoff (.111) and then...

.536 in 2014

.652 in 2015

 

I just don't buy the Drew was better at that time in their careers.

 

His past was better at that point, but he sure declined quickly at and after age 30.

 

Iggy's defense at SS would have made up for any loss on defense with Bogey at 3B, and it's not like we have had great defense at 3B from 2013 to the end of Iggy's control year.

[oldtimer]

Second night in a row scoring 2 runs and the offense being quiet after the 2nd inning. Baserunning has not been solid nor has hitting with runners in scoring position. Too many strikeouts and Cora having to substitute a weak hitter in Owings with two runners in scoring position.

 

Our vaunted offense can and does go cold at times and could also use some beefing up in the off season.

[jung]

The funny thing about 2013 was that Iggy out OPS'd Stephen Drew .785 to.777. Then, Drew fell off a cliff at the plate- going 6-54 in the playoff (.111) and then...

.536 in 2014

.652 in 2015

 

I just don't buy the Drew was better at that time in their careers.

 

His past was better at that point, but he sure declined quickly at and after age 30.

 

Iggy's defense at SS would have made up for any loss on defense with Bogey at 3B, and it's not like we have had great defense at 3B from 2013 to the end of Iggy's control year.

 

Actually Drew outplayed Iggy in the field in the Detroit series and it was not even close. Outplayed him enough to actually make a dif. Drew made every play at SS while Iggy fell all over himself screaming at his infield mates all the while....a horrid performance if I ever saw one. Iggy made one or two spectacular plays while booting everything else.

[moonslav59]

Actually Drew outplayed Iggy in the field in the Detroit series and it was not even close. Outplayed him enough to actually make a dif. Drew made every play at SS while Iggy fell all over himself screaming at his infield mates all the while....a horrid performance if I ever saw one. Iggy made one or two spectacular plays while booting everything else.

 

How many did he boot?

 

How many tough plays did Drew make?

 

2 plays is all you are basing your judgement on. One at a very bad time. (In guess you must be one of those guys who bashed Buckner to bits.)

 

The one thing Drew had going for him was his offensive edge, yet Iggy outhit him in the regular season and the playoff series.

 

Drew was horrible the next year, and the whole Iggy vs Drew debate (it was never Iggy vs Bogey) was about more than just 2013.

 

It was about improved defense and a better future.

 

[jung]

How many did he boot?

 

How many tough plays did Drew make?

 

2 plays is all you are basing your judgement on. One at a very bad time. (In guess you must be one of those guys who bashed Buckner to bits.)

 

The one thing Drew had going for him was his offensive edge, yet Iggy outhit him in the regular season and the playoff series.

 

Drew was horrible the next year, and the whole Iggy vs Drew debate (it was never Iggy vs Bogey) was about more than just 2013.

 

It was about improved defense and a better future.

 

 

Glad Iggy is gone. He is a lousy teammate for one thing and he always will be.

 

One simple question. Would Rafi have made so much progress with Iggy at SS as opposed to X? Answer: NOPE...not on a bet.

 

Drew made every single play in that series and you simply cannot downplay a shortstop in a short series making every single play compared to a hothead booting them and screaming at his teammates the whole time. So if you are arguing would I want Iggy now...NOPE....not on a bet. Would not have taken Iggy over Drew in that series and would not take Iggy now over X.

 

We got Peavy and WS and the Tigers got....embarrassed AGAIN!!!

[notin]

Actually Drew outplayed Iggy in the field in the Detroit series and it was not even close. Outplayed him enough to actually make a dif. Drew made every play at SS while Iggy fell all over himself screaming at his infield mates all the while....a horrid performance if I ever saw one. Iggy made one or two spectacular plays while booting everything else.

 

Drew did excellent glove work in that series. I agree on that.

 

But have you ever seen a shortstop show the range Iglesias displayed on that opposite field blooper by Ortiz?

[jung]

Drew did excellent glove work in that series. I agree on that.

 

But have you ever seen a shortstop show the range Iglesias displayed on that opposite field blooper by Ortiz?

 

Great play....But Iggy is still the same, makes a great play, bones up the play you really need made SS he always was and always will be. He is the same lousy teammate he always will be and its no accident that he went from one chump team, the Tigers to another chump team, the Reds as he will very likely play out his career just that way. His last year in Detroit, his teammates would literally laugh at him on the field for his absurd rages at them. He had become a caricature of himself in their eyes as they just could no longer take his on field glaring ranker seriously. He's just an ******* sorry to say and would only be my choice for SS under extreme duress.

 

Other than one ASG appearance, has he garnered any accolades at all as an MLB player? Anybody willing to pay him for his nonsense? NOPE. Highest salary was Pearce money in 2018 and the Tigers seem to have immediately realized that was a mistake. Making $2.5M in Cincy and becomes a FA after this season. Don't want him on my team EVER.

Edited August 22, 2019 by jung

[S5Dewey]

Like Leon?

 

Him too, but that only applies on days when Leon is catching and as of now he's only catching every 5th day or so. Would you want JDM only DH-ing every 5th day?

[S5Dewey]

One simple question. Would Rafi have made so much progress with Iggy at SS as opposed to X? Answer: NOPE...not on a bet.

 

 

You.. ah.. know that Devers was 16 at the time of the trade, right? Do you have any other 16 year olds you'd like to project as being as good as Devers is now?

[S5Dewey]

 

Other than one ASG appearance, has he garnered any accolades at all as an MLB player?

Does 2013 runner-up ROY count?

[Bellhorn04]

We're back onto the Iggy trade? Good stuff LOL

 

I'll never regret that trade. It was a deadline deal and Ben was being aggressive. Good on him.

 

Iggy was and still is a good solid little middle infielder.

[jung]

does 2013 runner-up roy count?

 

nope!

[jung]

We're back onto the Iggy trade? Good stuff LOL

 

I'll never regret that trade. It was a deadline deal and Ben was being aggressive. Good on him.

 

Iggy was and still is a good solid little middle infielder.

 

Meaning of course that he is a dime a dozen player that I can gleefully report is wearing somebody elses laundry. Good, solid little middle infielder....PLEASE!!!!!

 

The Rooster was a good solid little middle infielder. Iggy is just an ******* with range.