What are the chances of Porcello being offered a contract extension?

[Bellhorn04]

bogey definitely.

Mookie - not so sure.

Sale - i thought his number now is locked in for the next 4?

 

Sale's 2019 payroll cost for tax purposes is 15 million.

His 2020 payroll cost for tax purposes is 25.6 million.

[Kimmi]

That's right.

 

The issue is that even by doing nothing, the payroll cost for several players will rise significantly - Sale, Bogey and likely Mookie for starters.

 

True.

 

It will be interesting to see where/how Dombrowski finds another solid starter for significantly less than what Porcello would make.

[Slasher9]

Sale's 2019 payroll cost for tax purposes is 15 million.

His 2020 payroll cost for tax purposes is 25.6 million.

 

ahhh. thats right. they did the extension after the season started. good look.

[vegasbob]

True.

 

It will be interesting to see where/how Dombrowski finds another solid starter for significantly less than what Porcello would make.

 

Picture the difference if the FO drafted and developed one future starter every 2 years. 40% of the rotation would be under a $1MM per year and under team control for a good while. See : Rays, Tampa Bay (and possible Montreal Ex-Rays)

[moonslav59]

Picture the difference if the FO drafted and developed one future starter every 2 years. 40% of the rotation would be under a $1MM per year and under team control for a good while. See : Rays, Tampa Bay (and possible Montreal Ex-Rays)

 

What makes the idea work even better for the Rays is that they trade their good SP'ers, usually just before they decline, for more prospects. Then, they replace the guy with a (usually better) rookie.

[moonslav59]

Here's a look at what the Rays have gotten for their best pitchers:

 

(Listed by highest career WAR with the Rays)

 

Pitcher- (ERA w TB/ after TB)

 

Shields 3.89/4.17

with Wade Davis for Odorizzi, Wil Myers & Mike Montgomery

 

Price 3.19/3.34

for Drew Smyly, Willy Adams & Nick Franklin

 

Archer 3.67/5.15 (see Garza trade as the gift that keeps giving)

for Tyler Glasnow & Austin Meadoes

 

Kazmir 3.92/4.20

for Sean Rodriguez, Alex Torres & Matthew Sweeney

 

Cobb 3.50/5.36 (2 yrs)

Lost to free agency

 

Garza 3.86/4.17

with F Perez & Z Rosscup for Chris Archer, R Chirinos, B Guyer & S Fuld

 

Ordorizzi 3.85/3.78 (2 yrs)

for Jermaine Palacios

 

Niemann 4.06

Never traded

 

MMoore 3.86/5.78

for Michael Santos, Matt Duffy & Lucious Fox

 

Hellickson 3.74/4.49

for Justin Williams & Andrew Velazquez

Edited June 21, 2019 by moonslav59

[Kimmi]

Picture the difference if the FO drafted and developed one future starter every 2 years. 40% of the rotation would be under a $1MM per year and under team control for a good while. See : Rays, Tampa Bay (and possible Montreal Ex-Rays)

 

Absolutely. Having cost-controlled players gives the team so much more flexibility.

[notin]

Picture the difference if the FO drafted and developed one future starter every 2 years. 40% of the rotation would be under a $1MM per year and under team control for a good while. See : Rays, Tampa Bay (and possible Montreal Ex-Rays)

 

 

I see you’ve been reading my thread

[TylerD]

I had a dream we signed Porcello last night.

 

He isn’t going anywhere

[TylerD]

Today we saw bad Rick. Bad Rick is not making a strong case for me here.

[notin]

Picture the difference if the FO drafted and developed one future starter every 2 years. 40% of the rotation would be under a $1MM per year and under team control for a good while. See : Rays, Tampa Bay (and possible Montreal Ex-Rays)

 

 

Something that becomes a lot easier when you lose a lot and have those really high draft picks. Is that what you want?

[oldtimer]

Something that becomes a lot easier when you lose a lot and have those really high draft picks. Is that what you want?

 

Good point. We haven't had many top of the line draft picks in the last 10 years and we lost further by exceeding the second tier this year. That may explain why we don't develop starting pitchers. The Yankees must have gamed the system to be sitting in the catbirds seat. They too are sitting on a couple of unproductive big contracts, but their lineup and relief pitching is very good and they still aren't ushing the spending limit. Is that better management?

[Bellhorn04]

Good point. We haven't had many top of the line draft picks in the last 10 years and we lost further by exceeding the second tier this year. That may explain why we don't develop starting pitchers. The Yankees must have gamed the system to be sitting in the catbirds seat. They too are sitting on a couple of unproductive big contracts, but their lineup and relief pitching is very good and they still aren't ushing the spending limit. Is that better management?

 

Let's keep in mind the Yankees, with by far the largest revenues in the game, have only won one title since 2000 and have not won the division since 2012.

[TylerD]

Let's keep in mind the Yankees, with by far the largest revenues in the game, have only won one title since 2000 and have not won the division since 2012.

 

Good point. And then a team like Oakland who probably has less money than I do consistently makes playoffs. Baseball is strange. Granted poor Oakland never seems to make it too far in the playoffs.

[TylerD]

Porcello keeps this play up he isn’t writing a good case for himself

 

 

Why you hurt me Rick?

[moonslav59]

Porcello keeps this play up he isn’t writing a good case for himself

 

 

Why you hurt me Rick?

 

Time to disavow the wish for an extension, isn't it?

[jung]

Time to disavow the wish for an extension, isn't it?

 

Yup....though all of my sympathies are with the players be they pitchers or everyday players. I don't care what they get out of the MLB franchise owners. They should get what they can get.

 

The pitchers have certainly taken it on the chin more than the hitters have.

 

Every single thing that happens on a baseball diamond starts with the ball "THE BALL" [now f***ed with to an absurd degree] in the hand of THE PITCHER and MLB had the unmitigated gall to f*** with that.

 

- Did they do anything to develop a next generation of fans that had appreciation for the game that is? NOPE, decided they knew better than anybody else and decided to reinvent a new game while still calling it MLB baseball.

- Did they do anything to deal with the trend that they themselves created in trying to turn the multidimensional game of baseball into a unidimensional power game from both the mound and the plate? Did they do anything to mitigate what it was doing to pitchers and pitching? NOPE, just allowed the innings per start for Starters to slump into something unrecognizable, brought more relief pitchers into the game, came up with crap like the "quality start" and the "opener", kept promoting this idea of a power pitching game selling nothing other than pitch velo, leaving us with broken down rag arm pitchers and a steady stream of guys brought up to pitch MLB that in any other decade would NEVER have gotten out of AA ball

- The rocket ship, low seam profile baseball. There is not a single positive aspect to that pile of s*** that Manfred keeps changing now onto the 2019 version all the while claiming he knows nothing about it. Its all bad....its all negative and is very likely the straw that is breaking the camel's back for MLB pitchers and oh by the way, the very game itself.

 

Rick was onto his 42nd pitch last night before he got a swing and miss on a pitch in the strike zone....HIS 42nd pitch. Zimmerman got all the way up to his 49th pitch before getting his first swing and miss on a pitch in the strike zone. Coupled with MLB pitchers inability to get easy outs on weak contact, this is just an ugly spiral in the wrong direction because they are pitching 90-100 pitches before they can get out of the 6th inning, sometimes can't get out of the 5th inning before they hit the century mark.

 

Since pitchers are throwing too hard, trying to get paid based on what MLB says it wants, they are breaking down sooner forcing to the BIGS, guys that in other decades would have never made it out of AA ball and there is your ugly spiral to hell in a nutshell because MLB cannot backfill with quality arms as fast as they use them up now. They have no command of their pitches and they can't throw inside effectively allowing hitters to dominate both the inner and outer halves of the plate. As such these skank pitchers contribute to their own demise.

 

So I would say that as a top of the line Starter, Rick Porcello's career is about done.....DONE in a game that used to get through 162 game seasons on 4 Starters not 5. Porcello's exit will leave yet another hole in the MLB pitching ranks and will likely be replaced with another guy that should never fill a MLB uni EVENTUALLY.

 

MLB has not been able to backfill the pitching ranks they have decimated apparently convinced that nobody will look behind the Wizard's curtain and find Manfred with his pants around his ankles circle jerking with the owners. So now we have major suckage in the MLB pitching ranks and uber-major suckage in the minor league pitching ranks and it just keeps getting worse and worse and worse.

 

Most of the damage to this game has been done in a period not greater than 15 years and more like 10. I would say they have about 5-10 more years to get wise to themselves or they will cross the Rubicon and won't be able to cross back again. For the record, the steroid era was a tempest in a teapot with regard to total impact on the game when compared to this crap of manipulation and mutation of the game at its fundamental core.

 

So yea, Rick is probably done, relegated to playing out his career somewhere doing something at about a quarter of his actual potential as a pitcher, rubbed out not by drugs or heavy hitters but by manipulation of the game at its fundamental core. But he will pitch somewhere for somebody tossing up hideous numbers until he finally succumbs because there is actually nobody to replace him in the ranks of MLB pitchers. Rick just becomes another step on the spiral staircase going DOWN.

Edited July 7, 2019 by jung

[TylerD]

Time to disavow the wish for an extension, isn't it?

 

I still think it depends what he asks for. At this point who can we go for over Porcello for a 3rd man?

[TylerD]

Yup....though all of my sympathies are with the players be they pitchers or everyday players. I don't care what they get out of the MLB franchise owners. They should get what they can get.

 

The pitchers have certainly taken it on the chin more than the hitters have.

 

Every single thing that happens on a baseball diamond starts with the ball "THE BALL" [now f***ed with to an absurd degree] in the hand of THE PITCHER and MLB had the unmitigated gall to f*** with that.

 

- Did they do anything to develop a next generation of fans that had appreciation for the game that is? NOPE, decided they knew better than anybody else and decided to reinvent a new game while still calling it MLB baseball.

- Did they do anything to deal with the trend that they themselves created in trying to turn the multidimensional game of baseball into a unidimensional power game from both the mound and the plate? Did they do anything to mitigate what it was doing to pitchers and pitching? NOPE, just allowed the innings per start for Starters to slump into something unrecognizable, brought more relief pitchers into the game, came up with crap like the "quality start" and the "opener", kept promoting this idea of a power pitching game selling nothing other than pitch velo, leaving us with broken down rag arm pitchers and a steady stream of guys brought up to pitch MLB that in any other decade would NEVER have gotten out of AA ball

- The rocket ship, low seam profile baseball. There is not a single positive aspect to that pile of s*** that Manfred keeps changing now onto the 2019 version all the while claiming he knows nothing about it. Its all bad....its all negative and is very likely the straw that is breaking the camel's back for MLB pitchers and oh by the way, the very game itself.

 

Rick was onto his 42nd pitch last night before he got a swing and miss on a pitch in the strike zone....HIS 42nd pitch. Zimmerman got all the way up to his 49th pitch before getting his first swing and miss on a pitch in the strike zone. Coupled with MLB pitchers inability to get easy outs on weak contact, this is just an ugly spiral in the wrong direction because they are pitching 90-100 pitches before they can get out of the 6th inning, sometimes can't get out of the 5th inning before they hit the century mark.

 

Since pitchers are throwing too hard, trying to get paid based on what MLB says it wants, they are breaking down sooner forcing to the BIGS, guys that in other decades would have never made it out of AA ball and there is your ugly spiral to hell in a nutshell because MLB cannot backfill with quality arms as fast as they use them up now. They have no command of their pitches and they can't throw inside effectively allowing hitters to dominate both the inner and outer halves of the plate. As such these skank pitchers contribute to their own demise.

 

So I would say that as a top of the line Starter, Rick Porcello's career is about done.....DONE in a game that used to get through 162 game seasons on 4 Starters not 5. Porcello's exit will leave yet another hole in the MLB pitching ranks and will likely be replaced with another guy that should never fill a MLB uni EVENTUALLY.

 

MLB has not been able to backfill the pitching ranks they have decimated apparently convinced that nobody will look behind the Wizard's curtain and find Manfred with his pants around his ankles circle jerking with the owners. So now we have major suckage in the MLB pitching ranks and uber-major suckage in the minor league pitching ranks and it just keeps getting worse and worse and worse.

 

Most of the damage to this game has been done in a period not greater than 15 years and more like 10. I would say they have about 5-10 more years to get wise to themselves or they will cross the Rubicon and won't be able to cross back again. For the record, the steroid era was a tempest in a teapot with regard to total impact on the game when compared to this crap of manipulation and mutation of the game at its fundamental core.

 

So yea, Rick is probably done, relegated to playing out his career somewhere doing something at about a quarter of his actual potential as a pitcher, rubbed out not by drugs or heavy hitters but by manipulation of the game at its fundamental core. But he will pitch somewhere for somebody tossing up hideous numbers until he finally succumbs because there is actually nobody to replace him in the ranks of MLB pitchers. Rick just becomes another step on the spiral staircase going DOWN.

 

Well said.

 

Only thing I’m not so sure is the pitching too hard. Porcello doesn’t look like he is doing that to me. He is still the same Rick in my opinion from his CY YOUNG season but as I mentioned before. He just seems to get into his own head. He has a lot of great work. His slider, breaking, etc are all pretty when he is on. Go back to the Minnesota game for proof of that. But for some reason when he is off on one pitch like last night his breaking ball just didn’t seem to be working for him. All his pitches goes to hell. For some reason Rick is a 0 to 100 type pitcher. If it’s working he can give you 7 strong scoreless innings. If it’s not working he will blow up a game fast for you like he did against the Yankees and if the offense wasn’t so good last night he would have done it against Detroit as well.

 

I’m still chalking this up to inconsistent on Ricks part. I don’t think these last two games indicate the way he will play for the rest of his career. And I will be the first to say. If it does. Then he needs to move on because we can find much better. But at the end of the day it’s inconsistent and Rick needs to work on the mental side of things. Don’t let a bad inning kill your entire game. He used to rebound it seemed after a bad inning last year. Give up an early Porcello but then would have 5 shut down innings. This year for whatever reason is just different. One bad inning turns into a complete s*** show.

 

He was fantastic against Houston and the Jays then sucked for 3 straight games. Then was very good again against Texas and Minnesota and now back to suck. You just don’t know what Rick you’re going to get this year. It’s frustrating. When Rick is on he could cut it as an Ace for most teams like the way he played against Houston, Texas and Minnesota. But when he’s off like this last stretch I don’t even want him on the team.

[Bellhorn04]

When Rick is on he could cut it as an Ace for most teams like the way he played against Houston, Texas and Minnesota. But when he’s off like this last stretch I don’t even want him on the team.

 

So you're a typical loyal baseball fan. (Just messing with you, Tyler.)

[S5Dewey]

So you're a typical loyal baseball fan. (Just messing with you, Tyler.)

 

A fan's relationship with the players is a complicated one.

[Slasher9]

I still would be ok with a 2 year extension for rik.

He is there every 5th day...

[notin]

Yup....though all of my sympathies are with the players be they pitchers or everyday players. I don't care what they get out of the MLB franchise owners. They should get what they can get.

 

The pitchers have certainly taken it on the chin more than the hitters have.

 

Every single thing that happens on a baseball diamond starts with the ball "THE BALL" [now f***ed with to an absurd degree] in the hand of THE PITCHER and MLB had the unmitigated gall to f*** with that.

 

- Did they do anything to develop a next generation of fans that had appreciation for the game that is? NOPE, decided they knew better than anybody else and decided to reinvent a new game while still calling it MLB baseball.

- Did they do anything to deal with the trend that they themselves created in trying to turn the multidimensional game of baseball into a unidimensional power game from both the mound and the plate? Did they do anything to mitigate what it was doing to pitchers and pitching? NOPE, just allowed the innings per start for Starters to slump into something unrecognizable, brought more relief pitchers into the game, came up with crap like the "quality start" and the "opener", kept promoting this idea of a power pitching game selling nothing other than pitch velo, leaving us with broken down rag arm pitchers and a steady stream of guys brought up to pitch MLB that in any other decade would NEVER have gotten out of AA ball

- The rocket ship, low seam profile baseball. There is not a single positive aspect to that pile of s*** that Manfred keeps changing now onto the 2019 version all the while claiming he knows nothing about it. Its all bad....its all negative and is very likely the straw that is breaking the camel's back for MLB pitchers and oh by the way, the very game itself.

 

Rick was onto his 42nd pitch last night before he got a swing and miss on a pitch in the strike zone....HIS 42nd pitch. Zimmerman got all the way up to his 49th pitch before getting his first swing and miss on a pitch in the strike zone. Coupled with MLB pitchers inability to get easy outs on weak contact, this is just an ugly spiral in the wrong direction because they are pitching 90-100 pitches before they can get out of the 6th inning, sometimes can't get out of the 5th inning before they hit the century mark.

 

Since pitchers are throwing too hard, trying to get paid based on what MLB says it wants, they are breaking down sooner forcing to the BIGS, guys that in other decades would have never made it out of AA ball and there is your ugly spiral to hell in a nutshell because MLB cannot backfill with quality arms as fast as they use them up now. They have no command of their pitches and they can't throw inside effectively allowing hitters to dominate both the inner and outer halves of the plate. As such these skank pitchers contribute to their own demise.

 

So I would say that as a top of the line Starter, Rick Porcello's career is about done.....DONE in a game that used to get through 162 game seasons on 4 Starters not 5. Porcello's exit will leave yet another hole in the MLB pitching ranks and will likely be replaced with another guy that should never fill a MLB uni EVENTUALLY.

 

MLB has not been able to backfill the pitching ranks they have decimated apparently convinced that nobody will look behind the Wizard's curtain and find Manfred with his pants around his ankles circle jerking with the owners. So now we have major suckage in the MLB pitching ranks and uber-major suckage in the minor league pitching ranks and it just keeps getting worse and worse and worse.

 

Most of the damage to this game has been done in a period not greater than 15 years and more like 10. I would say they have about 5-10 more years to get wise to themselves or they will cross the Rubicon and won't be able to cross back again. For the record, the steroid era was a tempest in a teapot with regard to total impact on the game when compared to this crap of manipulation and mutation of the game at its fundamental core.

 

So yea, Rick is probably done, relegated to playing out his career somewhere doing something at about a quarter of his actual potential as a pitcher, rubbed out not by drugs or heavy hitters but by manipulation of the game at its fundamental core. But he will pitch somewhere for somebody tossing up hideous numbers until he finally succumbs because there is actually nobody to replace him in the ranks of MLB pitchers. Rick just becomes another step on the spiral staircase going DOWN.

 

So... 3 bad starts and he’s a pawn in a giant conspiracy?

[S5Dewey]

So... 3 bad starts and he’s a pawn in a giant conspiracy?

 

I'm not sure there's any great "conspiracy" going on but it's obvious that Manfred & Co. are trying to introduce more offense into MLB and the pitchers are the collateral damage.

 

Possibly we're all going to have to rethink our benchmarks for what a good pitcher is and accept the fact that an ERA of 4.00+ and a WHIP of 1.50 is acceptable.

[notin]

I'm not sure there's any great "conspiracy" going on but it's obvious that Manfred & Co. are trying to introduce more offense into MLB and the pitchers are the collateral damage.

 

 

You and jung’s manifesto clearly disagree on this.

[Bellhorn04]

I'll say this, jung is not wrong about the rocket ball. And it's obvious by now that Manfred knows it's a rocket ball and approves of it.

[S5Dewey]

You and jung’s manifesto clearly disagree on this.

 

Does that mean that you and I agree?

 

As I said, I don't see any great conspiracy to harm pitchers. It's just that Manfred and MLB are trying to make baseball "more exciting" (read: higher scoring) and they did it with what would be described by an attorney as "reckless indifference" toward the pitchers.

 

Maybe it's a difference in how we view collusion vs. conspiracy. IMO Manfred and MLB (possibly the owners) have colluded to bring more offense into the game, but there was no conspiracy to harm the pitchers.

[TylerD]

So you're a typical loyal baseball fan. (Just messing with you, Tyler.)

 

Lol. I still want him on the team. But his last 2 starts have been god awful.

[TylerD]

I still would be ok with a 2 year extension for rik.

He is there every 5th day...

 

Exactly!!

 

Nobody else has said who they want over Rick yet.

 

Stroman maybe if he is cheap which he isn’t.

[notin]

Does that mean that you and I agree?

 

As I said, I don't see any great conspiracy to harm pitchers. It's just that Manfred and MLB are trying to make baseball "more exciting" (read: higher scoring) and they did it with what would be described by an attorney as "reckless indifference" toward the pitchers.

 

Maybe it's a difference in how we view collusion vs. conspiracy. IMO Manfred and MLB (possibly the owners) have colluded to bring more offense into the game, but there was no conspiracy to harm the pitchers.

 

 

I wouldn’t call it a conspiracy, either. MLB is trying to compete for the fandom f low attention span millennials like Thunder, and noticing how they gravitate to quick-snip streaming video packages of segments of games that contain actual action such as the one the NBA released a few years back and was a mega hit. Baseball is not conducive to this type of viewer or medium as it stands.

 

But more important in the evolution of the game, jung’s diatribe was more of the “the way it was yesterday is the way it always was” viewpoint. This isn’t the first time the ball has changed. Heck they even named “The Live Ball Era” after a previous change it what had to be the worst ever attempt to disguise it. The ball will probably change again. Ditto the bat. (Attempts made and failed to switch to maple, for example.) The gloves (which are already radically different from predecessors) and batting helmets (now with new cranial protection feature!!).

 

This is just evolution. And it’s not stopping here either...