Would the Sox coaching and training staff start Sale knowing he's injured?

[TylerD]

Obviously Sale's velocity is way down watching last night there is no doubt about that, but the guy still pitched a great 6 innings and gave us a chance to win. If he can do that each and every week regardless if he has his super fastball I am all for it. My take is they are saving his shoulder so he is going more with the sliders, breaking balls..... However the fast balls he threw were concerning I won't lie. So my question..... Would the Sox organization risk playing an injured Chris Sale knowing he is injured? I hope this isn't the case. Could be costly in the future.

 

I doubt they would do this (I hope) but this wouldn't be the first time a team has played a star player knowing he is injured. Take the Indianapolis Colts playing Andrew Luck in 2016 knowing he had a bad shoulder and needed surgery. Took him out of the game for an entire year. It does happen, I just hope this isn't the case with Sale.

[BillyWilliams]

Can we please start at least 3 more sale threads?

[TylerD]

Can we please start at least 3 more sale threads?

 

Let's focus on this one first, and then I will see what I can come up with.

 

Edit: Also I didn’t see a bunch of other threads on Sale. On the first page I saw one on his contract. If this discussion has been beat to death feel free to close this and point me toward that discussion.

Edited April 3, 2019 by TylerD

[Slasher9]

So my question..... Would the Sox organization risk playing an injured Chris Sale knowing he is injured? I hope this isn't the case. Could be costly in the future.

 

.

no way. if they hadnt just inked him to a contract and this was his final year - then maybe. lets see where the velocity is when the warm weather arrives.

[mvp 78]

no way. if they hadnt just inked him to a contract and this was his final year - then maybe. lets see where the velocity is when the warm weather arrives.

 

My guess is that they'll meet with him and look at his arm this week. If everything is fine, he won't miss another start.

 

I wonder if this is more cause for concern for us, than it is for the team since they see him everyday and are aware of how he's pitching. It's not like they only watch him on gamedays like we do.

[Thunder]

Assuming everything is fine, I vote we bump him from his next scheduled start on Sunday so he can pitch the home opener. The 2 extra days rest can't hurt

[mvp 78]

Assuming everything is fine, I vote we bump him from his next scheduled start on Sunday so he can pitch the home opener. The 2 extra days rest can't hurt

 

Bumping him from a warm start in AZ to a potential freezing start in Boston sounds like a bad idea if there are any questions about his arm.

[Thunder]

Bumping him from a warm start in AZ to a potential freezing start in Boston sounds like a bad idea if there are any questions about his arm.

 

Yes, but he would be gassed up to pitch at Fenway on Ring Day. Whoever does will be as well

[mvp 78]

Yes, but he would be gassed up to pitch at Fenway on Ring Day. Whoever does will be as well

 

Wouldn't that be worse for him to overthrow if his arm is injured or not ready?

[Thunder]

Wouldn't that be worse for him to overthrow if his arm is injured or not ready?

 

It's times like these where I still feel like a dumb kid.

[TylerD]

It's times like these where I still feel like a dumb kid.

 

Lol, it's all good. It's all speculation right now on what's going on with Sale. At the end of the day we will probably never know the severity of his injury if that is indeed what he has. As a Colts fan I know this feeling all too well with Luck in 2016.

[Thunder]

Lol, it's all good. It's all speculation right now on what's going on with Sale. At the end of the day we will probably never know the severity of his injury if that is indeed what he has. As a Colts fan I know this feeling all too well with Luck in 2016.

 

Is that why Pagano got fired? Had to be a big reason I would think

[TylerD]

Is that why Pagano got fired? Had to be a big reason I would think

 

Yup it was a huge reason.... Every week lied to the faces of the fans and said Luck will play, he is fine.... Did it in 2017 as well damn well knowing he wasn't going to play all year. Did it just to keep fans coming and sell tickets. Granted he was probably told by the owners and GM to do it as well but with the lying, and dreadful season of 2017 and horrible defense his time came to a crashing end.

 

And just like us speculating with Sale, Colts fans are doing the same with Luck and his shoulder. He looked god awful against the Chiefs in the playoffs. Throwing 30 yards looked like a stretch for him. Time will tell if that was a one off game (as he was good all season) or if his shoulder is giving him fits again.

[Thunder]

Yup it was a huge reason.... Every week lied to the faces of the fans and said Luck will play, he is fine.... Did it in 2017 as well damn well knowing he wasn't going to play all year. Did it just to keep fans coming and sell tickets. Granted he was probably told by the owners and GM to do it as well but with the lying, and dreadful season of 2017 and horrible defense his time came to a crashing end.

 

And just like us speculating with Sale, Colts fans are doing the same with Luck and his shoulder. He looked god awful against the Chiefs in the playoffs. Throwing 30 yards looked like a stretch for him. Time will tell if that was a one off game (as he was good all season) or if his shoulder is giving him fits again.

 

You could chalk it up to the snowy weather, the Chiefs defense, or a bunch of other things, but yeah, that is a valid point about throwing it 30 yards.

[mvp 78]

It's times like these where I still feel like a dumb kid.

 

Sorry! Didn't mean to talk down to you!

[Thunder]

Sorry! Didn't mean to talk down to you!

 

Nah, don't worry about it. Put me in my place if I'm sounding like an idiot. It happens a lot

[TylerD]

You could chalk it up to the snowy weather, the Chiefs defense, or a bunch of other things, but yeah, that is a valid point about throwing it 30 yards.

 

Ya agreed! I don't think it's anything serious. But it was great watching the Pats beat the Chiefs yet again lol.

[mvp 78]

Note Levangie's quotes below suggesting that Chris Sale is still just getting his season ready and is slow to start by design due to pushed back Spring Training. This is not me tooting my horn at being right because I would never ever do that.

 

Chris Sale isn’t alarmed.

 

By Chad Jennings of The Athletic

 

OAKLAND​ –​ It​ was​ almost​ exactly one month​ ago​ that​ Chris​ Sale sat​ in​ front of his​ spring training​​ locker and inadvertently predicted almost exactly what happened to him on Tuesday night.

 

“Someone like Nolan Ryan, right,” Sale said. “If he didn’t feel good for a day, the whole world didn’t know it. He just threw at a lower speed…. If that happens to one of us? It’s all over Twitter. It’s all over everywhere. Something’s wrong! Something’s happened! He’s lost it, right? Back then, they’re just grinding. That’s called grinding. That’s the definition of going out there and just figuring it out.”

 

Chris Sale was grinding on Tuesday.

 

And, yes, the whole world knew it.

 

Oakland hitters stepping in the box knew it. Christian Vazquez calling the pitches knew it. Any schmuck with access to a television or the internet showing 89-mph fastball velocities knew it. This was a diminished version of the Red Sox ace. It was also an impressive version of the Red Sox ace.

 

Six innings. Three hits. One run. One strikeout. For the first time in his career, Sale threw more than three innings without notching more than one strikeout, but it was still the Red Sox’ best start of the season, by a lot.

 

“The name of the game isn’t velocity,” Sale said. “It’s giving your team a chance to win. No matter what you’re featuring that day, you’ve got to get as deep into the game as you can and leave your team a chance to win when you’re out of there. At the end of the day, like I said, just take this one off the chin and keep going.”

 

Sale gave his team a chance. The problem for the Red Sox was not their starting pitcher. It was their lifeless offense being shutout for the second night in a row. It was Xander Bogaerts hesitating around second and being thrown out at third. It was those damned Oakland A’s, again, with the kryptonite.

 

But Chris Sale averaging 89.1 mph on his fastball, basically abandoning that pitch in middle innings, and failing to record a strikeout beyond the third batter he faced? It was unusual. It was perhaps alarming considering last year’s shoulder problems, but it was at the very least unusual.

 

“You guys want him to pitch the whole year or do you want him to go out and throw 100 (mph) right now and not be there for his team,” pitching coach Dana LeVangie said. “He’s building. He had a long year last year. He’s building up to be the guy he wants to be. He started last year similar, but we’re getting to that point. But just not right now.”

 

Sale did, indeed, go through a build-up period early last year. His fastball averaged 93.36 mph last April. But it topped out at 92 on Tuesday, a maximum lower than his average fastball velocity on Opening Day. Only one of his first nine fastballs topped 90 mph, and in a 12-pitch third inning, Sale threw just two fastballs. He threw only two more in a six-pitch fourth, and four in a 15-pitch fifth. Sale said he never once talked to Vazquez about changing the mix. Vazquez simply knew it had to be done. Sale said it was the nature of the modern game, not the radar readings, that necessitated the change.

 

“I just think that’s kind of part of the evolution of the game,” he said. “It seemed like even if I threw two or three fastballs in an inning, they were ready for it. You kind of see how the game goes, see how the swings are in the at-bats and adjust accordingly.”

 

Here’s Sale’s pitch selection in his first two starts of the season:

 

Game 1: 39 percent fastballs, 37 percent sliders, 24 percent changeups

 

Game 2: 33 percent fastballs, 32 percent sliders, 34 percent changeups

 

In his career, Sale’s been closer to 50 percent fastballs than 30 percent fastballs. If one of Tuesday’s changeups had been a slider instead, he would have thrown exactly 29 of each individual pitch (25 four-seam fastballs and four two-seam fastballs according to Statcast), an even mix that he’d never shown in the past. In his final inning, Sale did go back to his fastball when five of his last 13 pitches were heaters, with four of them registering 90.8 mph or higher (four of his seven highest velocity pitches of the night). But still, five days ago he averaged 92.3 mph and topped out at 94.5. Again, it was unusual.

 

“Zero — zero concern,” pitching coach Dana LeVangie said. “Not at all. He dialed it up when he wanted to. It’s there. But he knows how important he is to his team. He can pitch, regardless of the velocity.”

 

So, what to make of this grinding version of Chris Sale?

 

It’s all part of the plan. The slow build-up of spring training has carried into April, Sale’s velocity will naturally build to its previous levels, the Red Sox are keeping him safe and healthy, and Tuesday was to be admired as an old-school display of pitch-ability.

 

It’s not exactly part of the plan – velocity could be higher at this point – but it’s not exactly a problem either. The build-up is taking a little more time than it has in the past, but Sale’s talented enough to deal with it, and it’s ultimately fine.

 

There’s something wrong. Maybe it’s the shoulder again, maybe it’s his mechanics, maybe it’s something else, but it’s a minor issue that will naturally work itself out with time and effort. In Sale and LeVangie and Alex Cora We Trust.

 

We’re going to inevitably look back at this start as a gigantic, waving, rippling red flag when Sale was able to admirably grind through a solid start to serve as a smokescreen for something more sinister.

 

The Red Sox say it’s No. 1 — No. 2 at the worst — and given how protective they’ve been, it’s worth noting that Sale was allowed to keep going up to 87 pitches, 11 more than he threw in his Opening Day start. Would the Red Sox let their ace do that if they thought he was hurt, or if they thought he was at risk of getting hurt? Probably not.

 

“I’m still just trying to find it,” Sale said. “Still working on some things with my mechanics and trying to find my space out there. Just trying to get comfortable and find the groove. That’s half the battle with a pitcher, especially a starting pitcher, is finding a groove and getting comfortable. We’re still working. It’s a work in progress. Like I said, that’s no excuse. Have to go out there and find a way.”

 

Sale found a way on Tuesday. It was called grinding. And it was unusual.

[Bellhorn04]

As British people would say (my wife watches Coronation Street), Sale just needs to get himself 'sorted'. Edited April 3, 2019 by Bellhorn04

[notin]

If Sale had gotten hammered again, I’d be more concerned.

 

 

Even without the velocity, this was an encouraging game for Sale. Some nights, for whatever reason, pitchers just don’t have it. But Sale showed is he can be effective even without his best weapon. Not every pitcher can do that...

[TylerD]

If Sale had gotten hammered again, I’d be more concerned.

 

 

Even without the velocity, this was an encouraging game for Sale. Some nights, for whatever reason, pitchers just don’t have it. But Sale showed is he can be effective even without his best weapon. Not every pitcher can do that...

 

Exactly how I feel

 

I give a s*** if Sale ever throws 97-100 again. If he is making it 6 strong innings giving up 2 runs or less that is the Sale I like to see regardless of the velocity. It was concerning because of how poor he looked against Seattle. But if he can continue the play we saw last night I don’t really care how he pitches. 6 innings with 1 run is awesome whether you strike out 10 players or you get no strike outs. It’s actually a good sign because if his fast ball isn’t there he has some other weapons to fall back on.

[Kimmi]

Obviously Sale's velocity is way down watching last night there is no doubt about that, but the guy still pitched a great 6 innings and gave us a chance to win. If he can do that each and every week regardless if he has his super fastball I am all for it. My take is they are saving his shoulder so he is going more with the sliders, breaking balls..... However the fast balls he threw were concerning I won't lie. So my question..... Would the Sox organization risk playing an injured Chris Sale knowing he is injured? I hope this isn't the case. Could be costly in the future.

 

I doubt they would do this (I hope) but this wouldn't be the first time a team has played a star player knowing he is injured. Take the Indianapolis Colts playing Andrew Luck in 2016 knowing he had a bad shoulder and needed surgery. Took him out of the game for an entire year. It does happen, I just hope this isn't the case with Sale.

 

The Sox would let allow Sale to pitch if they thought he was injured. They have too much invested in him.

 

Also, IMO, Sale is not the type of pitcher who would try to hide an injury from the coaching staff.

 

Cora is a pretty straight shooter on these types of things. If he's not concerned, then I'm not concerned.

 

Sale will be fine.

[Northern Star]

Also also...if you give him an extra two days rest and then start him on a freezing day, won't that risk the arm even more? Asking you guys who know way more about pitching than I do.

[TylerD]

The Sox would let allow Sale to pitch if they thought he was injured. They have too much invested in him.

 

Also, IMO, Sale is not the type of pitcher who would try to hide an injury from the coaching staff.

 

Cora is a pretty straight shooter on these types of things. If he's not concerned, then I'm not concerned.

 

Sale will be fine.

 

Ya I tend to agree with you Kimmi, though I've seen this story played out before in the MLB, NFL and NHL. But Sale still played like a winner last night so I am sure he is fine.

[TylerD]

Also also...if you give him an extra two days rest and then start him on a freezing day, won't that risk the arm even more? Asking you guys who know way more about pitching than I do.

 

Ya, I would rather see him get the start against Arizona in the warmth personally.

[cp176]

The answer to the question is of course no they would not. Is there really anyone out there who thinks that that is even remotely possible?

[BillyWilliams]

The Sox would let allow Sale to pitch if they thought he was injured. They have too much invested in him.

 

Also, IMO, Sale is not the type of pitcher who would try to hide an injury from the coaching staff.

 

Cora is a pretty straight shooter on these types of things. If he's not concerned, then I'm not concerned.

 

Sale will be fine.

 

And you've come to this conclusion after having tea and crumpets with him?

 

The bottom line is as much as we like to think we know something about the players on our favorite teams, the reality is we know very little about who they really are.

[notin]

And you've come to this conclusion after having tea and crumpets with him?

 

The bottom line is as much as we like to think we know something about the players on our favorite teams, the reality is we know very little about who they really are.

 

 

Except Logan Morrison, who lets it all out on Twitter...

[TylerD]

The answer to the question is of course no they would not. Is there really anyone out there who thinks that that is even remotely possible?

 

Colts organization did it with Andrew Luck in 2016. GM and head coach eventually were fired from it.... So yes it does happen, but in this case I agree... I don't think there is anyway the Sox organization and coaching staff would risk Sale if he was hurt.

[Bellhorn04]

And you've come to this conclusion after having tea and crumpets with him?

 

The bottom line is as much as we like to think we know something about the players on our favorite teams, the reality is we know very little about who they really are.

 

The real question is, if Sale has an injury, how has he hidden it from our crack medical staff?