Best manager in Red Sox history

[cp176]

I am one of the few on this thread who got the joke. On the bad manager list, I had to find the one guy you didn’t think of and had to go back over 100 years to do it...

 

oh notin - I think that you would probably be surprised to know that there were a few others who could see through this one.

[cp176]

No MLB Baseball is not dying assuming that MLB was really the frame of reference. Clear evidence that its not thriving either. Not sure it will survive once my generation is pushing up daisies.

 

Remember, MLB and baseball were once referred to as the "National Pastime". Nobody considers Pastimes meaningful any longer unless they come in the form of dancing fingers across a keyboard or thumbs on a game controller or over a video monitor.

 

Once my generation dies off, I am not even sure what percentage of the sporting populace will actually even understand what is happening on the baseball diamond. I think I am doing my part to prevent that. Gotta' tune into game threads to find the people on baseball forums that actually know what is going on between the lines and in the dugouts for anybody actually interested in learning something about baseball from baseball forums. They don't always agree nor even often agree. But at least they for the most part actually know what the f*** is going on within the game itself.

 

Its the lack of understanding and appreciation for the physical and mental intricacies of the game that is going to kill it as sports entertainment if anything does because buried in those intricacies is the beauty of this beautiful game.

 

OK - this is a post that I truly love - I also consider myself blessed to have a 6 year old grandson who has the early passion for baseball as well as all other games played outside in the fresh air. We can talk about this game all we want to but having experienced and actually knowing the game in my opinion is what it is all about. I don't mind a bit if someone who I happen to think has experienced the game and understands it takes me to school with respect to it.

[sk7326]

Tito, Dick Williams ... everybody else

 

Cora is off to a terrific start ... at the same time Farrell's start is not all that dissimilar. (Cora obviously started with a better situation)

 

Moreover - Tito and Williams' results in other places reinforced their quality.

[Bellhorn04]

Terry Bradshaw had a pretty good line about how to decide debates about who's the best: 'Let's all drop our championship rings on the table and see who makes the most noise...'

[sk7326]

Terry Bradshaw had a pretty good line about how to decide debates about who's the best: 'Let's all drop our championship rings on the table and see who makes the most noise...'

 

It's a bit reductive. And it is hard to tell where managers end and players begin in terms of credit/blame pie. A bad manager can only screw things up so much. I mean the Royals won two pennants with a bad tactical manager. The Rangers did too. (both are probably very good at the stuff we don't see) But either way you want sustained excellence - building a successful culture that can optimize players. Cora has shown a ton in year 1 - but hell, he still has to demonstrate more over time ... I mean Kevin Cash has a strong track record for what you want from a manager without the hardware.

[Sox75]

psst...

 

We got the joke. BUT, making this into a serious discussion was not a bad idea.

 

The fact that so many put Cora ahead of Tito is pretty funny. I absolutely LOVE Cora right now, but thus far, all he's shown is that he is a great manager. NO SMALL FEAT!!!! But, it's nowhere near what Tito did, & keeps on doing. I still feel badly about the 'difficulties Tito got into, with the "inmates running the asylum," due perhaps to a bit of a "pain management problem."

 

Yeh. At the time he had to go, but his downturn in MO WAY diminishes his HISTORIC success in Boston. That 2004 ALCS actually belongs right up there with 67 & 75. In fact, so much so that many of us were far less excited about the final WS win. That series was THE GREATEST COMEBACK in all of sports history, let alone just MLB HISTORY. For 7 out of 9 years, Tito pulled all the right levers.

 

Anyway.... Let's pray that Cora becomes everything & more than Tito, or at least comes close! It's gonna be tough, what with so many guys heading for EPIC MONEY in free agency. It's gonna be VERY TOUGH to keep this talent together over the coming years.

[dustcover]

What Dick Williams did with that bunch of players in 1967, IMO, puts him at the top of the list. And it was no fluke, based on his success rate as a manager, albeit with different teams, in the ensuing years after leaving the Red Sox.

[moonslav59]

The fact that so many put Cora ahead of Tito is pretty funny.

 

I count one: me.

 

I understand the love for Tito, and he is deserving of the support he has gotten.

 

I get the longevity argument.

 

I get the total rings argument.

 

I also look at several missed playoffs, early exits and let downs with some damn good teams led by great starters.

 

I think it's "funny" how Ben is always roasted for trading away a top rotation, but Tito was not blamed for not being able to win with them. He gets credit for winning the two rings but not for the other seasons.

 

I know I'm the champion of not using small sample sizes, so my position seems contradicting, but in my opinion, Cora is the best manager I've ever seen the Sox have.

 

Yes, it's a small sample size, and my opinion might change after he's had a couple poor or under performing seasons, but he hasn't had any, yet. I'm going by the totality of their work-- the good and the bad and the ugly.

 

Cora has no ugly. Cora has no bad. True, Cora has no rings either, but from what I've seen him do, he's the best. Tito is a close second, and I'm okay with seeing him as #1. Dick Williams and Bill Carrigan are 3rd/4th.

[Sox75]

The fact that so many put Cora ahead of Tito is pretty funny.

 

I count one: me.

 

I understand the love for Tito, and he is deserving of the support he has gotten.

 

I get the longevity argument.

 

I get the total rings argument.

 

I also look at several missed playoffs, early exits and let downs with some damn good teams led by great starters.

 

I think it's "funny" how Ben is always roasted for trading away a top rotation, but Tito was not blamed for not being able to win with them. He gets credit for winning the two rings but not for the other seasons.

 

I know I'm the champion of not using small sample sizes, so my position seems contradicting, but in my opinion, Cora is the best manager I've ever seen the Sox have.

 

Yes, it's a small sample size, and my opinion might change after he's had a couple poor or under performing seasons, but he hasn't had any, yet. I'm going by the totality of their work-- the good and the bad and the ugly.

 

Cora has no ugly. Cora has no bad. True, Cora has no rings either, but from what I've seen him do, he's the best. Tito is a close second, and I'm okay with seeing him as #1. Dick Williams and Bill Carrigan are 3rd/4th.

 

 

No doubt, SO FAR..... it's easy to make the case that Cora IS a TRULY EXCEPTIONAL manager. You certainly don't win 108 regular season games by accident. You don't roll over the Yankees and Astros, BOTH GREAT TEAMS, by accident! Cora is calm, cool, collected, & talks softly, succinctly, & quietly, while carrying a very big stick. SO FAR, he IS EXCEPTIONAL! SO FAR, he has managed THIS TEAM brilliantly!

 

So far . . . .

 

BUT..... sorry! NOBODY should be giving him The Nobel Peace Prize this early. Results matter. SO FAR, he has 3 BIG RESULTS.... Far more than Obama had when being given the NPP, but we haven't even made it TO THE BIG PRIZE. It's ridiculous to assume he wins it, before a pitch has been thrown. On paper, WE SHOULD WIN IT, so what will be said if he doesn't? Unlike with the NPP, Cora will be deemed a failure. Unfair, but true. He will have to take the blame. Unfair perhaps, but true.

 

I think I'll wait for your bigger sample before crowning him King.

 

Any other decision is just silly. I freaking LOVE THIS GUY, & think he has ALL THE RIGHT TOOLS to become one of the best managers ever! He simply put, clearly relates to, motivates, inspires, pushesball the right buttons, and unites a very diverse group of players. NO SMALL FEAT! He is uniquely positioned for the current demographics of players today! Plus, he clearly seems to be a genuinely decent and exceptional person.

 

He has all the right tools to BE THE BEST ever, but it still remains to be seen.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Sox75

[moonslav59]

No doubt, SO FAR..... it's easy to make the case that Cora IS a TRULY EXCEPTIONAL manager. You certainly don't win 108 regular season games by accident. You don't roll over the Yankees and Astros, BOTH GREAT TEAMS, by accident! Cora is calm, cool, collected, & talks softly, succinctly, & quietly, while carrying a very big stick. SO FAR, he IS EXCEPTIONAL! SO FAR, he has managed THIS TEAM brilliantly!

 

So far . . . .

 

BUT..... sorry! NOBODY should be giving him The Nobel Peace Prize this early. Results matter. SO FAR, he has 3 BIG RESULTS.... Far more than Obama had when being given the NPP, but we haven't even made it TO THE BIG PRIZE. It's ridiculous to assume he wins it, before a pitch has been thrown. On paper, WE SHOULD WIN IT, so what will be said if he doesn't? Unlike with the NPP, Cora will be deemed a failure. Unfair, but true. He will have to take the blame. Unfair perhaps, but true.

 

I think I'll wait for your bigger sample before crowning him King.

 

I thought "on paper" we were supposed to lose to the Yanks and Astros.

 

The Astros were faves. once the Yanks won in Boston, they were faves.

 

I'm going on what I see on the field. Cora is doing things no previous Sox manager has ever done.

 

He's doing things many here used to criticize past managers, including at the end of Tito's reign, of never having the balls to try.

[cp176]

With respect to the ring theory - sorry I don't buy that. I have seen so many wonderfully talented coaches never win one. They just didn't get quite lucky enough. With respect to players and rings - Oh well - poor Ted I guess - I wonder if his lack of rings means that I can no longer consider him the best hitter of all time. NOT That would kind of be like what I have said before that that must mean that Eli Manning will go down as being a better QB than Dan Marino and that is a joke.

[cp176]

I thought "on paper" we were supposed to lose to the Yanks and Astros.

 

The Astros were faves. once the Yanks won in Boston, they were faves.

 

I'm going on what I see on the field. Cora is doing things no previous Sox manager has ever done.

 

He's doing things many here used to criticize past managers, including at the end of Tito's reign, of never having the balls to try.

 

 

I think that the thinking for the most part here for sure is that one reason for Cora's success is his age which allows him to better communicate with this current generation of players. Everybody tends to think that he is just such a player's manager right. I bet that we would be surprised to find out how much in reality he is in charge of this team. He is now surrounded with the types of players he wants and he is managing in the manner that he chooses. I'm guessing that he is very clear in that locker room and that he isn't afraid to deal quickly with any and all of the little nuisance items that pop up. If he is what people think a player's coach is fine but I think that he is clearly running the show.

[Bellhorn04]

 

I think it's "funny" how Ben is always roasted for trading away a top rotation, but Tito was not blamed for not being able to win with them. He gets credit for winning the two rings but not for the other seasons.

 

The worst record any of Tito's teams had was 86-76, in 2006. And that was a season in which the team was thoroughly decimated by injuries in the second half.

 

No serious fan expects their team to win it all every year.

 

The reason Ben got roasted was not just for trading away a top rotation, but for finishing last in consecutive seasons.

[Sox75]

I thought "on paper" we were supposed to lose to the Yanks and Astros.

 

The Astros were faves. once the Yanks won in Boston, they were faves.

 

I'm going on what I see on the field. Cora is doing things no previous Sox manager has ever done.

 

He's doing things many here used to criticize past managers, including at the end of Tito's reign, of never having the balls to try.

 

 

I thought I pretty much said that? I said "HE beat 2 GREAT TEAMS." I said he HAS BEEN EXCEPTIONAL!

 

WE agree on everything, except on what has yet to happen. We haven't won it all yet. That's it. Like it or not, without winning it all, Tito still ranks above Cora. FOR NOW....

 

As I also said, Cora has ALL THE TOOLS! Whether it happens for him is yet to be seen.

 

Either way, he remains a GREAT MANAGER. "The best?" I just don't know yet.

[cp176]

You know what, when you actually are talking about the greatest coaches most fans use wins and losses to make their final decision. Most coaches, people on the inside don't. There is so so much more that goes into it. I think that Cora has great great potential.

[cp176]

I thought "on paper" we were supposed to lose to the Yanks and Astros.

 

The Astros were faves. once the Yanks won in Boston, they were faves.

 

I'm going on what I see on the field. Cora is doing things no previous Sox manager has ever done.

 

He's doing things many here used to criticize past managers, including at the end of Tito's reign, of never having the balls to try.

 

It is conceiveable I guess to think that Tito might not have had the balls to call a fool a fool in the end.

[sk7326]

I thought "on paper" we were supposed to lose to the Yanks and Astros.

 

The Astros were faves. once the Yanks won in Boston, they were faves.

 

I'm going on what I see on the field. Cora is doing things no previous Sox manager has ever done.

 

He's doing things many here used to criticize past managers, including at the end of Tito's reign, of never having the balls to try.

 

Who said they were favorites? I mean - realistically the postseason and perception of the team is not different from 2013. People thought the Rays were dangerous. And then they thought the Tigers had that sort of starting pitching which was impossible to upend.

[Bellhorn04]

Vegas had the Astros as slight favorites against the Red Sox. Deservedly so, I think, based on their superior run differential.

[sk7326]

Vegas had the Astros as slight favorites against the Red Sox. Deservedly so, I think, based on their superior run differential.

 

I think it was reasonable. Going to 2013 the Tigers were also slight favorites iirc for the same reasons. (great starting pitching, won the pennant the year previous)

[Youk Of The Nation]

Terry Bradshaw had a pretty good line about how to decide debates about who's the best: 'Let's all drop our championship rings on the table and see who makes the most noise...'

 

Bernie Williams has four rings, Ted Williams has zero. Eli Manning has two rings, Dan Marino has zero.

[moonslav59]

Who said they were favorites?

 

Vegas and maybe more than half the posters here.

[cp176]

Bernie Williams has four rings, Ted Williams has zero. Eli Manning has two rings, Dan Marino has zero.

 

I've been trying for a while now to make this point but I don't think that anyone is listening. lol

It's all about the rings I guess. Whatever, this season is and has been very successful regardless of what is coming up. My prediction of course is the good guys on the correct coast are going to win.

[Sox75]

Judging individual MLB "greatness" when it comes to players, requires a far different metric than judging managers, who must bring talent together to perform as a unit striving to achieve the same goal.

 

Saying one player is "less great" than another based on rings is of course ridiculous, as alluded to above. Managers? OF COURSE require a completely different metric for good reason. Lots of managers have incredible talent. Few take teams of relatively equivalent talent all the way. NO doubt there are great managers who never get a team with great talent. There is really no good way to measure this, unless you use the "sucked less than they should have" metric. Using the same, "what about the rings" metric to judge individual PLAYERS IS of course ridiculous! Using it to discredit that argument with managers is likewise ridiculous.

 

At this point, we have a great little microcosm to study. THE 4 BEST TEAMS by all accounts. Cora & Red Sox Players have defeated THE 2 BEST. If Cora and crew are victorious over the Dodgers, a TRULY formidable team, it's fair to say Cora got the best out of this Red Sox team!

That is a great manager!

 

Like it or not, managers ARE JUDGED by their ability to get their team to win. Many managers get their teams all the way there with roughly equivalent talent. More often than not, "the better team wins." What is behind the players stepping up & performing is too complicated & enmeshed to boil it down to being all about the manager. Still, it's the best we can come up with. If you've got a great team that wins with a great manager, the manager of course gets a good deal of the credit.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Sox75

[sk7326]

Vegas and maybe more than half the posters here.

 

As I noted - fair, but since this is baseball any version of favorite really doesn't amount to much.

[Jasonbay44]

The ring argument is always dumb, especially when comparing different eras.

[moonslav59]

As I noted - fair, but since this is baseball any version of favorite really doesn't amount to much.

 

I was responding to someone who said that "on paper" we were expected to win. I mentioned many felt otherwise.

 

I did think we were going to win, in part because we have Cora, so in my mind we were the faves.

 

Besides, this isn't the reason I view Cora as the best.

[Kimmi]

I thought "on paper" we were supposed to lose to the Yanks and Astros.

 

The Astros were faves. once the Yanks won in Boston, they were faves.

 

I'm going on what I see on the field. Cora is doing things no previous Sox manager has ever done.

 

He's doing things many here used to criticize past managers, including at the end of Tito's reign, of never having the balls to try.

 

Cora is arguably having the best season of any Sox manager. I won't argue that.

 

Does sustained success mean anything in terms of being the best all time manager?

 

What if the Sox don't win the World Series? What if the Sox end up winning 80 games next year and missing the playoffs? Is Cora still the best all time manager?

[sk7326]

I was responding to someone who said that "on paper" we were expected to win. I mentioned many felt otherwise.

 

I did think we were going to win, in part because we have Cora, so in my mind we were the faves.

 

Besides, this isn't the reason I view Cora as the best.

 

He has done a terrific job managing the team. Tactically he is pretty good. What is weird is comparing him tactically to Francona when there isn't a ton of evidence of anything different. Neither guy sacrificed much. Francona ran when he had players who could run. Both guys handle pitching staffs well. The differences in defensive positioning are typical for the two different time frames in which they managed.

 

Cora has shown certain strengths in a year. Francona did that and then kept the team in good shape while the key players changed. Francona was outstanding with young players, and Cora has certainly shown some goods there. (though his young players had more certainty - 2006 Dustin Pedroia sure did not look like a big league player) Francona will always have 2011 held over him - and he deserves some of the blame sure. But 2010 was one of his best managing jobs. And of course Cleveland has been excellent throughout.

[notin]

oh notin - I think that you would probably be surprised to know that there were a few others who could see through this one.

 

I’m sure there were. But how many people mentioned Cora and/or Tito?

[cp176]

I’m sure there were. But how many people mentioned Cora and/or Tito?

 

Count em up for me notin will you - need to get my beauty sleep.