Cora and Closers

[dannycater]

I didn't have time to find a spot about something that I'm sure has been discussed probably in other threads, but here it goes.

Alex Cora is a genius, well argued by his current 111 wins. He made all the right moves v. Yankees, plays Holt/Devers, goes back to Nunez/Kinsler. Pulls Porcello early, brings in Sale. Has relievers start innings and then has them on a 1-inning leash period--123 or with baserunners. He gives the whole logic of not hitting Holt after the Cycle, how the matchups do this, and that. And he's been right.

....

Now, here's my problem with Alex Cora in game 4 yesterday. This is a guy who made sure he pulled Price before it had any potential of going uglier than 3 runs. This is the guy who takes Sale out after 16 outs due to pitch count. He set this game to go to Kimbrel in the 9th. And why not, 42 saves, and looked brilliant in the 5-4 win at home, etc. When Kimbrel was clearly wild, not getting a breaking ball over for a strike, missing on low fastballs inside, outside, hits a batter, almost hit another batter...In all this, there is a shot of an empty Sox bullpen. OUTRAGEOUSLY STUPID for analytics/strategy/today's game. Grady Little lost his job for putting all his faith in Pedro. Cora decided to do the same with Kimbrel. I say ********!

 

How come it's okay to put leashes and limits and play with pitchers based on performance and time, then turn right around and go "oh, well Craig is on his own, and I'm not budging." Am I saying you go to another reliever/starter to replace him at any point. Hell yes. He should have had Workman and Price and whomever else had a live arm warming up to face anyone. Electric stuff, 99 fastballs don't mean anything if you can't throw strikes. It's a complete double standard to put all your eggs in one basket (one pitcher). No way. If the philosophy is maximize performance, prevent any Yankee comeback by using your pen, then Kimbrel was not doing his job. He got the save out of sheer luck. The ball hit by Sanchez was over the Monster and it's possible that if a lefthanded Moreland was at 1st, the ball would have skipped past him on Nunez rushed throw, game over. Bottom line, he went like the old time managers with his closer. Live by my closer, die by my closer. ******** again. That philosophy cost the 1986 Red Sox. There is no rule now that says you have to have a set closer anyway. There are so many things that being done backward, including relievers who start, and starters who relief, and pitch counts that are becoming more like 65 than a 100, that everything is open and on the table as far as closing a game. You had Sale and he was sailing, tell me if 90 percent of the Sox fans didn't think it would be better to just let Sale finish off a series-clincher. There was no need other than pride and the closer-belief that prompted going to Kimbrel. It was just an assumption, but made a foregone conclusion.

 

Let this be a lesson that you don't have to use Kimbrel to closer no matter what. You don't have to do it if you got Porcello in the pen or Sale or it's a series clincher. If Kimbrel is wild, which he is prone to do in big games, it's a circus out there. Last night was a heart attack that went the Sox way. Had Brasier or Barnes walked a single batter, you can bet they are 1 step away from being pulled. Kimbrel? Oh, he has a different set of limits, rules. Nobody warming up in the pen with the game on the line is stupidity. Win or lose. This is the playoffs. This is all bets and standard practices are off. Sale should have started the 9th and if he gave up a baserunner, then maybe I go to Kimbrel. Not just automatically bring him in because he's the closer, and that's it. Yes, it all ended well, but the Astros will not leave Kimbrel off the hook if he gets wild again. Have relievers warming up, and don't go "Price? are you crazy!". It's not about the pitcher who comes in as much as it's about throwing strikes and not giving away bases due to wildness.

 

Thank you, back to celebrating, Go Sox!!! Go Cora!! Let's win 119.

[moonslav59]

I'd have pitched Sale the 8th and 9th, but I have no issues with Cora going with the guy who got us here- Kimbrel.

 

As bad as Kimbrel looked, I'm not sure any other pitcher could have regained his composure in such a high leverage situation as Kimbrel put himself into last night.

 

Nobody was warming up in the 9th.

 

It was sink or swim with kimbrel.

 

(Note: I am one of the few Sox fans that still feel (or admit it) that leaving Pedro in was the right thing. Pedro was our best pitcher.)

[Slasher9]

Kelly was up and warming fast when the groundball was hit to end the game.

[moonslav59]

Kelly was up and warming fast when the groundball was hit to end the game.

 

I missed that. I thought they showed an empty pen after the HBP.

[dannycater]

That's what I saw too, but if Kelly was up, then good.

[dannycater]

I'd have pitched Sale the 8th and 9th, but I have no issues with Cora going with the guy who got us here- Kimbrel.

 

As bad as Kimbrel looked, I'm not sure any other pitcher could have regained his composure in such a high leverage situation as Kimbrel put himself into last night.

 

Nobody was warming up in the 9th.

 

It was sink or swim with kimbrel.

 

(Note: I am one of the few Sox fans that still feel (or admit it) that leaving Pedro in was the right thing. Pedro was our best pitcher.)

 

Going back to 03, while I loved Pedro, he looked like he was out of gas, but he made some good pitches, the Posada hit was a good pitch. I wanted Embree or Timlin to come in and yes they have been known to have their issues too, but it just seemed like we were waiting for the worst to happen as the pitch count went 123,124,125. I still go to Timbree

[dannycater]

Personally? I would have let Barnes start the 7th, Brasier start the 8th...guy is cruising, then leave him in. Why not shorten the number of pitchers if you got a hot hand. But that's me.

[dannycater]

But in all honesty, even with "confidence" or lack thereof in a Kelly or a Price or even a Workman. They all should have been warming up with the intent of going in, while Kimbrel was firing pitch 1 in the 9th. If the Sox choked game 4, don't really care who lost 25 warmup pitches in game 4 pen.

[dgalehouse]

Sale was only going to pitch one inning . He would still be ready to start a Game 5 , if that became necessary. There was no consideration of him pitching the ninth. Cora had faith in Kimbrel to close. Like it or don't like it , those are the facts.. Cora said so himself.

[Bellhorn04]

The number of times in his CAREER Kimbrel has given up 3 runs in an inning has been miniscule.

[TylerD]

Although I understand your frustration I still agree with Cora sticking with Kimbrel. As mentioned before, the 9th inning with the Yankees season on the line is one of the most stressful innings a pitcher will ever pitch. Had Sale come in the 9th and blew it, we would be sitting here saying "Why the hell did you not go with Kimbrel??" A guy who (although gave up a run) in the first game absolutely dominated the next 3 pitchers. He is our closer for a reason and that is his job. To come into a high pressure situation and win us the game. It was a struggle I will give you that but in the end he got the job done. Scary but we got the win. Closing a game out against the Yankees or Astros is no easy task for any pitcher on any given day. Kimbrel is 3rd in saves this year so it was no surprise he went to Kimbrel. And in the end as intense as it was we got the win.

[dgalehouse]

Now people want Kelly in to close it. A week ago , they wanted him shipped out of town. They wanted Poyner on the roster. The second guessing is too funny. Cora has done a great job. We won . In Yankee freaking Stadium. What more do you want?

[mvp 78]

Now people want Kelly in to close it. A week ago , they wanted him shipped out of town. They wanted Poyner on the roster. The second guessing is too funny. Cora has done a great job. We won . In Yankee freaking Stadium. What more do you want?

 

They didn't win by enough! Posters literally had their heart stop and lost years off of their lives from winning that playoff game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Slasher9]

I missed that. I thought they showed an empty pen after the HBP.

 

in the postgame when they showed the different views of the last out and then celebration he was on the mound in the BP and then came running onto the field. it is possible he was only sent to warm once the review happened?

[dannycater]

My point is you don't always have to go to Kimbrel, that's all. If it's 6-1 and it's the 9th inning of a clinching game and Brasier just sailed throw a 1-2-3 8th, let Brasier throw the 9th. This isn't about feelings. It's about winning and he's blown 5 saves-Kimbrel--and he's had some real issues in his postseason career with control.

[Bellhorn04]

My point is you don't always have to go to Kimbrel, that's all. If it's 6-1 and it's the 9th inning of a clinching game and Brasier just sailed throw a 1-2-3 8th, let Brasier throw the 9th. This isn't about feelings. It's about winning and he's blown 5 saves-Kimbrel--and he's had some real issues in his postseason career with control.

 

This was a 4-1 score. You're muddying the waters bringing a 6-1 score into it.

[dannycater]

Bellhorn, I had no problem bringing in Kimbrel. My problem was he was erratic by every pitch and then the shot of the empty bullpen. Sorry, that's wrong.

[dannycater]

Are we trying to win the game, or make a pitcher happy?

[TylerD]

Are we trying to win the game, or make a pitcher happy?

 

You use who you have used all year. Kimbrel. And he was excellent in game 1 outside of that one home run. He shut down 3 batters after that in no time. There was no sign saying Kimbrel wasn’t ready to go. Maybe now that he has a post season win under his belt he will build off of that and be that much better. Hell you could tell Kelly didn’t want to come out. When the Sox won he cheered harder than anyone. Probably because he was scared shitless of coming out and blowing the game.

[TylerD]

Are we trying to win the game, or make a pitcher happy?

 

Trying to win.

 

Which is why you bring in the closer who has the 3rd most saves this year

[dannycater]

Once he gets wild, he starts to force pitches. Sanchez's ball thankfully hit at Yankee Stadium, not Fenway, or you are whistling a different story.

[TylerD]

Once he gets wild, he starts to force pitches. Sanchez's ball thankfully hit at Yankee Stadium, not Fenway, or you are whistling a different story.

 

He didn't do it in game 1. Probably just nerves in an elimination game.

[dannycater]

It's overanalyzing, which I hate, but Cora brings a lot on himself by holding to different standards for different guys/situations, etc. Is Kimbrel a light's out closer? Sometimes he is, but again, I see no reason in an elimination game or clinching game to have others warming up....just in case a meltdown is taking place. And yesterday was indeed a meltdown.

[dannycater]

For the record, I for one do not care one iota who is pitching when the final out occurs. It can be Joe Kelly, David Price, Ryan Brasier, Workman, Hembree, I don't care. As long as it's someone getting outs and not choking on the big stage.

[mvp 78]

It's overanalyzing, which I hate, but...

 

Sounds more like you love overanalyzing.

[notin]

I'd have pitched Sale the 8th and 9th, but I have no issues with Cora going with the guy who got us here- Kimbrel.

 

As bad as Kimbrel looked, I'm not sure any other pitcher could have regained his composure in such a high leverage situation as Kimbrel put himself into last night.

 

Nobody was warming up in the 9th.

 

It was sink or swim with kimbrel.

 

(Note: I am one of the few Sox fans that still feel (or admit it) that leaving Pedro in was the right thing. Pedro was our best pitcher.)

 

And while Timlin was hot in the playoffs, the bullpen for most of that season was a bit of a disaster...

[Bellhorn04]

It's overanalyzing, which I hate, but Cora brings a lot on himself by holding to different standards for different guys/situations, etc. Is Kimbrel a light's out closer? Sometimes he is, but again, I see no reason in an elimination game or clinching game to have others warming up....just in case a meltdown is taking place. And yesterday was indeed a meltdown.

 

Over his career, yes, he's a lights out closer. The numbers bear it out. 1.91 ERA .92 WHIP

[moonslav59]

Going back to 03, while I loved Pedro, he looked like he was out of gas, but he made some good pitches, the Posada hit was a good pitch. I wanted Embree or Timlin to come in and yes they have been known to have their issues too, but it just seemed like we were waiting for the worst to happen as the pitch count went 123,124,125. I still go to Timbree

 

I get the argument, and it makes sense, but to me, Pedro was the best pitcher I've ever seen, and an 80% Pedro was still better than anyone else ready to pitch that game.

 

I have no beef with those who disagree, but I think the highly charged criticism of Little went over board, considering we're talking about taking Pedro out- not a Porcello or an Eovaldi.

[Kimmi]

That's what I saw too, but if Kelly was up, then good.

 

Yes, Kelly was indeed warming in the pen.

[Kimmi]

My point is you don't always have to go to Kimbrel, that's all. If it's 6-1 and it's the 9th inning of a clinching game and Brasier just sailed throw a 1-2-3 8th, let Brasier throw the 9th. This isn't about feelings. It's about winning and he's blown 5 saves-Kimbrel--and he's had some real issues in his postseason career with control.

 

I tend to agree. If a reliever comes in and breezes through an inning, why not leave him in for another inning? Sometimes the next reliever that comes in ends up being ineffective. This has always been my opinion, not just in this game and not just with Cora. That said, Cora is the man.