Dave Dombrowski

[Maxbialystock]

While I hate the shift, I would hate it more if the Commissioner impose regulations against it. It's a defensive alignment and a strategy. Hitters and offenses need to work around it. What's Manfred going to do after that - make it illegal to choke up on a bat?

 

Pace of play? Go for it! Bring the DH to the NL? Should have been done years ago. But the shift? Get real...

 

Know anything about basketball? Ever heard of the 3 second violation inside the paint? Basketball did that because it opened up the court. Ditto the three pointer.

 

The MLB rule book was created to make sense of the game and to keep it interesting. Thus have mounds been lowered, DH's added in the AL, etc. Still not much of a breakthrough on speeding up the game because pitchers and hitters and even managers resist it because so much hangs on every pitch and situation.

[Slasher9]

you make a great point S5. i never wanted Papi to do it, but JBj should be instructed to lay bunts down the 3rd baseline every other AB. the player will never do it on their own....Cora needs to give him the bunt sign.

[Slasher9]

There seems to be a school of thought that if you bunt and try to go the other way more, you're doing exactly what the defense wants you to do. I dunno the answer.

 

for hitters like our beloved Papi? yes. that is what the D wants.

for hitters like our JBj? no. he should be instructed to bunt.

[Slasher9]

Know anything about basketball? Ever heard of the 3 second violation inside the paint? Basketball did that because it opened up the court. Ditto the three pointer.

 

The MLB rule book was created to make sense of the game and to keep it interesting. Thus have mounds been lowered, DH's added in the AL, etc. Still not much of a breakthrough on speeding up the game because pitchers and hitters and even managers resist it because so much hangs on every pitch and situation.

 

honestly i think the best thing MLB has done for the "pace of play" is limit the catcher mound visits. it may not equate to much game timed saved but it certainly feels like the pace is better. i hated it when the catcher would go out to the mound for every batter....

[notin]

Know anything about basketball? Ever heard of the 3 second violation inside the paint? Basketball did that because it opened up the court. Ditto the three pointer.

 

The MLB rule book was created to make sense of the game and to keep it interesting. Thus have mounds been lowered, DH's added in the AL, etc. Still not much of a breakthrough on speeding up the game because pitchers and hitters and even managers resist it because so much hangs on every pitch and situation.

 

And back court violations and the 24 second clock were added to prevent Bob Cousy from dribbling out the last few minutes of the game (according to my dad, anyway. Worth noting he was a lawyer and not a basketball historian.)

 

I would hate to see baseball get over-regulated the way basketball is.

 

The changes throughout baseball history have been very significant, much more so than banning or limiting he shift. The additional of foul poles and the additonal of ground rule doubles (which were previously called home runs) would be two of the biggest changes in not only baseball, but American sports in general since 1900.

 

The shift strikes me as a fad alignment that will go away, most likely because someone will come up with another alignment that works better. Banning the shift isn't in line with the other changes you cited in MLB history; it's the opposite. It's about stifling change and preventing the game from evolving...

[notin]

There seems to be a school of thought that if you bunt and try to go the other way more, you're doing exactly what the defense wants you to do. I dunno the answer.

 

From what I read on the subject - and I can't remember my source - that is the exact goal of the shift - to make powerful lefty pull hitters bunt more and go the other way, taking the out of their best swing.

[Emp9]

Pace of play doesn't appear to be being enforced for some reason. Sunday's Price/Matsuzaka showdown just drove this point home. It's not a bad idea to use these existing rules; and probably better for the game than eliminating the shift.

 

Why do you think the NL DHs would be worse than AL DHs? You don't think teams will get specific players for the position, like everyone does? Having each league operate under a different set of rules is and has always been stupid. Picture if teams in the AFC were allowed 2 point conversions, but teams in the NFC were not. Andd with pitch count data the whole "strategic" element is outdated anyway. Adopt of the DH - which is used in every league around the world except the PCL in Japan and the National League.

 

The idea of not letting teams have defensive freedoms is silly to me. They still only get 9 players. The filed doesn't get smaller. If this shift fad continues, teams will get around it by prioritizing right-handed hitters...

 

I’m not opposed to the NL having a DH. It’s a bit off my post’s topic that’s all and I don’t think it solves too much pertaining to the shift. Yeah i’d be fine with an NL DH.

 

I’m not talking about mild adjustments. Like the 3B moving five feet in off the line. That’s an adjustment. There are mild shifts and extreme shifts. Depending on how extreme the shift is, yeah I definitely think there should be some rules. Defensive freedoms? I can only think of three rules at present. Interfering w/ a runner, a bad throwing error, and a balk.

 

Fact of the matter is ‘HR or Bust’ isn’t helping the sport as a whole. Forget what should happen. Not developing proper bunting skills has been a systemic issue in baseball for decades now. Should the whole sport and it’s fans have to wait another decade for better bunting to develop? Wouldn’t it be easier to put some rules on the shift?

[Bellhorn04]

I can't remember who it was, but I heard one of the commentators suggest a change where you can shift laterally as much as you want but no infielders can be in the outfield at the start of the play - they need to be standing on the infield dirt.

[notin]

I’m not opposed to the NL having a DH. It’s a bit off my post’s topic that’s all and I don’t think it solves too much pertaining to the shift. Yeah i’d be fine with an NL DH.

 

I’m not talking about mild adjustments. Like the 3B moving five feet in off the line. That’s an adjustment. There are mild shifts and extreme shifts. Depending on how extreme the shift is, yeah I definitely think there should be some rules. Defensive freedoms? I can only think of three rules at present. Interfering w/ a runner, a bad throwing error, and a balk.

 

Fact of the matter is ‘HR or Bust’ isn’t helping the sport as a whole. Forget what should happen. Not developing proper bunting skills has been a systemic issue in baseball for decades now. Should the whole sport and it’s fans have to wait another decade for better bunting to develop? Wouldn’t it be easier to put some rules on the shift?

 

Baseball has seen it's share f come-and-go fads. In the 1980's, the game seemed to be all about stolen bases (except in Boston). Now, even with faster players, steals are far, far less frequent.

 

As for bunting - well, again - it is a strategy (and not, as many suggest, a fundamental). Right no, it is a strategy no one wants to use. Maybe in 5 years, everyone will be sac bunting all the time, which will be boring as hell. But Tito stopped doing it, it worked and he won, and the league emulated him. And Bill James wrote lengthy diatribes about the importance of not wasting outs. So no one but the occasional NL pitcher does it anymore.

 

HR or bust is the latest fad where they practice swinging to work on launch angle and exit velocity. It's another evolutionary development. Like focusing on OBP or wRC, it won't last, since someone will come up with something new...

[notin]

I can't remember who it was, but I heard one of the commentators suggest a change where you can shift laterally as much as you want but no infielders can be in the outfield at the start of the play - they need to be standing on the infield dirt.

 

If MLB wants to add that rule, they will also need to add a standard size for infield dirt. Otherwise teams can expand the dirt portion of the infield to fit their defensive needs.

 

And don't go thinking they won't. They will. I am 100% certain of that...

[notin]

 

I’m not talking about mild adjustments. Like the 3B moving five feet in off the line. That’s an adjustment. There are mild shifts and extreme shifts. Depending on how extreme the shift is, yeah I definitely think there should be some rules. Defensive freedoms? I can only think of three rules at present. Interfering w/ a runner, a bad throwing error, and a balk.

?

 

Also bear in mind, penalizing defensive alignment in football is easy. Give the other team yards. But what do you do in baseball? When do you stop the play?

[Emp9]

It's an interesting conundrum for MLB.

 

Both football and basketball have done things to increase scoring and thereby increase fan interest. Football now protects both quarterbacks and receivers in an effort to get more passing into the game. In basketball a team now is "awarded" half the length of the court late in the game if they can get the ball in-bounds and call time. (How stupid is that? But it promotes scoring late in close games. It's no wonder I don't like the NBA!)

 

Overall scoring in MLB has remained fairly static for the past 20 years (of course 2018 total runs isn't available yet) so the shift hasn't made a big difference in total runs scored. What the shifts have done is create a change in strategy.

 

I don't like the shifts for multiple reasons but this issue would take care of itself if players were instructed in bunting. JBJ is the best (local) example of what could be done. JBJ has this low BAPIP because he's hitting into a shift while the left side of the infield is sitting there almost naked. If he squares around and drops a few bunts down that 3rd baseline he'll get on base more and two things will happen, both of them good. 1) He'll be on base more when Mookie comes up, and 2) it'll force the defense to stop shifting against him giving him more grass to hit to on the right side.

 

Is there a downside to that?

 

It’s not about how many runs scored. It’s more about how the runs scored. In fact, there could be even less runs scored as long as there’s more action. League-wide.

 

This is one of the reasons why the Red Sox are so exciting to me this season (and last couple seasons to an extent). We have at least two of the top hitters in the league in JD & Betts and they’re not HR or Bust. I’m not talking about the red sox. The Sox are fine. I’m talking about baseball as a whole attracting more fans and making sure the action on the field keeps up with other sports.

[S5Dewey]

There seems to be a school of thought that if you bunt and try to go the other way more, you're doing exactly what the defense wants you to do. I dunno the answer.

 

I understand that philosophy as it pertains to David Ortiz and JDM. As it's said, these guys are getting paid to hit HR's not to bunt, and bunting takes away the chance of the HR.

 

IMO everyone should be able to bunt - situationally. If, for example, the Sox are down by 3 runs in the 9th JDM should be bunting to get on base. If they're down by 1, not so much. Sometimes not making outs, "keeping the line moving" is more important than the chance that a hitter will hit a HR that still leaves the team in a two-run hole.

[S5Dewey]

Baseball has seen it's share f come-and-go fads. In the 1980's, the game seemed to be all about stolen bases (except in Boston). Now, even with faster players, steals are far, far less frequent.

 

As for bunting - well, again - it is a strategy (and not, as many suggest, a fundamental). Right no, it is a strategy no one wants to use. Maybe in 5 years, everyone will be sac bunting all the time, which will be boring as hell. But Tito stopped doing it, it worked and he won, and the league emulated him. And Bill James wrote lengthy diatribes about the importance of not wasting outs. So no one but the occasional NL pitcher does it anymore.

 

HR or bust is the latest fad where they practice swinging to work on launch angle and exit velocity. It's another evolutionary development. Like focusing on OBP or wRC, it won't last, since someone will come up with something new...

 

Well....bunting is a strategy that can be used if a player has the fundamentals to do it. But we're not talking about sacrifice bunts here - or at least I'm not. I'm talking about bunting to get a hit against a shift.

[notin]

Well....bunting is a strategy that can be used if a player has the fundamentals to do it. But we're not talking about sacrifice bunts here - or at least I'm not. I'm talking about bunting to get a hit against a shift.

 

But from what I have read on the subject from a source I can’t remember, if you get the opposing hitter to bunt, the shift worked.

 

Of course, that strategy was back when the shift was used against the predominant lefty hitters in the game, starting in the 1920’s with Cy Williams (and not 20 years later with Ted Williams, as many believe.). Nowadays you see the shift being deployed against almost every left-handed hitting non-pitcher.

 

The one good thing about the shift - it has lessened the need for LOOGY relievers, which was a deceptively bad strategy all along...

[Dojji]

Know anything about basketball? Ever heard of the 3 second violation inside the paint? Basketball did that because it opened up the court. Ditto the three pointer.

 

The MLB rule book was created to make sense of the game and to keep it interesting. Thus have mounds been lowered, DH's added in the AL, etc. Still not much of a breakthrough on speeding up the game because pitchers and hitters and even managers resist it because so much hangs on every pitch and situation.

 

I don't think the game should be sped up. Half the excitement of this game comes from tension and anticipation.

 

I would, however, be fine with rules that prevented the shortstop from taking a pre-pitch position to the right of the bag, and the second basemen to the left, if the league wanted to go that far breaking up the overshift. Let the outfield shade however they want to. That would still allow the shortstop to take a position behind the bag for a more diluted form of shift, while opening up some field for pull hitters. Seems like a reasonable compromise

Edited August 10, 2018 by Dojji

[sk7326]

The shifts are fine ... I mean, runs are UP the last two seasons. Shifts are not reducing offense - indeed, there is evidence it has increased it.

 

The shifts have done its job - when the ball is put in play. However, one of the offshoots of the shift is that the pitcher is trying to pitch to a smaller target, which has increased walks.

 

And yes, bunting the opposite way is a good idea against a lefty overshift - just to at least force the 3B to THINK about it.

 

I am waiting for a team to experiment with fielder motion ... showing one shift and then shifting to another during the windup or something.

[cp176]

wait...so we dont all agree????

 

FTR - CP you are one of my favorite posters. one day we will agree on....something. ~

 

I think that you would be surprised at how much I actually agree with you! You are one of the ones that I think we can have a little fun with. We need to have some fun with this forum. I might come off as being a little serious from time to time but for the most part I'm full of ********. Keep posting my friend.

[Emp9]

The shifts are fine ... I mean, runs are UP the last two seasons. Shifts are not reducing offense - indeed, there is evidence it has increased it.

 

The shifts have done its job - when the ball is put in play. However, one of the offshoots of the shift is that the pitcher is trying to pitch to a smaller target, which has increased walks.

 

And yes, bunting the opposite way is a good idea against a lefty overshift - just to at least force the 3B to THINK about it.

 

I am waiting for a team to experiment with fielder motion ... showing one shift and then shifting to another during the windup or something.

 

Yeah the End Results are up. The quality of the means are down.

[sk7326]

Yeah the End Results are up. The quality of the means are down.

 

I don't see much evidence of that. Frankly, I am surprised teams did not do this more in the olden days - it was right there.

[Spudboy]

There seems to be a school of thought that if you bunt and try to go the other way more, you're doing exactly what the defense wants you to do. I dunno the answer.

 

Some big name hitters have stated that it is far easier to talk about hitting to left against the shift than to actually do it. It seems that pitchers do not like to cooperate.

[sk7326]

Some big name hitters have stated that it is far easier to talk about hitting to left against the shift than to actually do it. It seems that pitchers do not like to cooperate.

 

Right - the pitcher is trying to get you to pull it. It is harder than it seems. You still should try here and there, but it is what it is.

[Emp9]

I don't see much evidence of that. Frankly, I am surprised teams did not do this more in the olden days - it was right there.

 

Well yeah, because we’re Red Sox fans and they’re f***ing amazing this year. I don’t recommend watching most other teams. I’ve tried (fantasy purposes only), its not good.

[S5Dewey]

But from what I have read on the subject from a source I can’t remember, if you get the opposing hitter to bunt, the shift worked.

 

I've heard that before too. I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now - in certain situations.

 

Going back to my JBJ example, if a team can induce JBJ - a .<.250 hitter to bunt and be successful at a .500 rate unreasonable since the is playing in ss hole jbj has proven that he can winning>

[cp176]

Great discussion here with some really good thoughts. For what it's worth, I do not feel that tampering with the game whether through rules changes or even the trying to get everything right attitude necessarily is advancing it. I'm sorry if it makes me appear reluctant to change (which I'm not) but I do not feel that the game has to undergo dramatic change in an effort to make a better product. It is a pretty good one just the way it is. I feel bad for those who don't embrace it as is but oh well. I also think that much of what is being done recently with respect to swing changes for instance is not new at all. A new language , yes I buy that, but that is about it. Someone feels really good I guess because they think that they have reinvented the wheel.

[cp176]

Great discussion here with some really good thoughts. For what it's worth, I do not feel that tampering with the game whether through rules changes or even the trying to get everything right attitude necessarily is advancing it. I'm sorry if it makes me appear reluctant to change (which I'm not) but I do not feel that the game has to undergo dramatic change in an effort to make a better product. It is a pretty good one just the way it is. I feel bad for those who don't embrace it as is but oh well. I also think that much of what is being done recently with respect to swing changes for instance is not new at all. A new language , yes I buy that, but that is about it. Someone feels really good I guess because they think that they have reinvented the wheel.

 

Oh by the way, you want these .225 power hitters to be able to beat the shift, teach them to become better all around hitters or be happy with what you got.

[sk7326]

Well yeah, because we’re Red Sox fans and they’re f***ing amazing this year. I don’t recommend watching most other teams. I’ve tried (fantasy purposes only), its not good.

 

Whenever I find myself thinking that - I double back and recognize I am old.

[Emp9]

Oh by the way, you want these .225 power hitters to be able to beat the shift, teach them to become better all around hitters or be happy with what you got.

 

If the shift increased bunting, that would be one thing. But it hasn’t.

[cp176]

If the shift increased bunting, that would be one thing. But it hasn’t.

 

Lot of talk about bunting I guess but in reality the best hitters hit regardless of the shifts. they understand how to hit away from them so to speak. IMO it tends to allow for the cream to rise to the top. I'm really not interested in some duffers who can just hack away without thought. I love the guys who turn it into a science.

[jd98]

Lot of talk about bunting I guess but in reality the best hitters hit regardless of the shifts. they understand how to hit away from them so to speak. IMO it tends to allow for the cream to rise to the top. I'm really not interested in some duffers who can just hack away without thought. I love the guys who turn it into a science.

 

"hit 'em where they ain't" -- Wee Willie Keeler, over 100 years ago.