Do we need an offensive catcher?

[Natick to NC]

Nothing Swihart has done gives any hint that he's better than leon or Vaz.

 

He is likely a slightly better hitter.

 

He's clearly worse on defense.

 

You can see what you want, feel what you want, and keep spouting nonsense, but Swihart is not going to catch any significant time this year, unless there's an injury.

....Swihart took strike three without taking the bat off his shoulder ...he can f*** off tonight

[devildavid]

In the game today we faced very good Braves pitching and they have a decent lineup as well. We had Sale going for us and that gave us a chance but our guys were not htting a lot so down we go. I can't moan about a lost as we are bound to have some along the way. The point of this loss is we had Betts out with a precautionary tightness and JDM out for a rest so were really weakened against a good foe.

 

Beni went one for three and a walk and Moreland did his thing, but it was hardly enough as we are currently carrying weak hitters in too much of the lineup.

 

Pedroia is just back so it is being optimistic to expect him to come right in and be sharp at the plate. We are probably going to have a fairly trying transition period until he is nack in better form.

 

Beyond him we have Bradley, Swihart and Leon who aren't hitting their weight and both Nunez and Devers are not scarying a lot of pitching staffs.

 

The question was asked "Do we need an offensive catcher?" I think we can see from today that yes, we could use an improvement at both catcher and center field becauswe we are only an injury to a key player from being a much weaker hitting club. I for one hope that DD will use some of the luxury tax money freed up with the DFA of Hanley to make some kind of continuous improvement acquisition in the field.

 

Sox are second in the AL in runs/game. The offense is fine. A key injury would hurt the Yankees offense as well.

[moonslav59]

Last 14 Days MLB Catcher OBP by Team

 

.468 NYY

.346 MIL

.345 PIT

.333 ATL & NYM

.327 MIA & CWS

.326 BOSTON (9th in MLB)

 

OPS

11th at .667

(12 teams are below .610)

(6 teams are below .555)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oldtimer]

Sox are second in the AL in runs/game. The offense is fine. A key injury would hurt the Yankees offense as well.

 

Yes a key injury would hurt any team but are you saying it wouldn't make sense for DD to make improvements where we are weakest and that we should stand pat? I am more of an activist and look for the FO to recognize weaknesses and to try and improve those areas.

[moonslav59]

Yes a key injury would hurt any team but are you saying it wouldn't make sense for DD to make improvements where we are weakest and that we should stand pat? I am more of an activist and look for the FO to recognize weaknesses and to try and improve those areas.

 

I've always felt like trying to improve your weakest link, even if it is not necessarily weak, is the best way to improve your team

 

I do not think catcher is our weakest position.

 

I do not think CF is our weakest position.

 

Just because the first 8 weeks has seen weak offense from those two slots does not mean we need to upgrade at either of those positions.

 

I actually think 2B has been our wekest position, so far due to awful defense AND weak hitting. The catcher and CF positions (along with RF) have carried our defense to respectability.

 

Maybe by the time the trade deadlin is here, I'll be fed up with JBJ and Leon, but it's too early yet, and Leon andJBj seem to be heating up a little bit, so there's no rush at this point.

 

If I had to guess, I think we'll trade for a RP'er, SP'er or a hitter who kills lefties.

[S5Dewey]

Yes a key injury would hurt any team but are you saying it wouldn't make sense for DD to make improvements where we are weakest and that we should stand pat? I am more of an activist and look for the FO to recognize weaknesses and to try and improve those areas.

 

I hear you, but at the same time we also have to be thinking about what we'd do if someone who wasn't the weakest link goes down. Suppose for instance that DD went out and acquired someone else to play CF (A HUGE mistake IMO, but work with me here...) and Beni or Devers went down with a long term injury. We'd have depleted our resources even more and it would be more difficult to replace either of them with quality.

 

This team is on pace to win ~110 games. I'm going to start to worry about replacing people when that number gets down to around 100.

[moonslav59]

I hear you, but at the same time we also have to be thinking about what we'd do if someone who wasn't the weakest link goes down. Suppose for instance that DD went out and acquired someone else to play CF (A HUGE mistake IMO, but work with me here...) and Beni or Devers went down with a long term injury. We'd have depleted our resources even more and it would be more difficult to replace either of them with quality.

 

This team is on pace to win ~110 games. I'm going to start to worry about replacing people when that number gets down to around 100.

 

Excellent point, S5.

 

It's too early to make a definitive call on where we need an upgrade. We only have $2-3M left to spend, and precious few prospects, so we may be up for one significant acquisition. We better be sure we chose the right slot to upgrade and the right player to fill our needs.

[oldtimer]

Excellent point, S5.

 

It's too early to make a definitive call on where we need an upgrade. We only have $2-3M left to spend, and precious few prospects, so we may be up for one significant acquisition. We better be sure we chose the right slot to upgrade and the right player to fill our needs.

 

I was under the impression that when we DFAed Rameriz his prorated salary became available to acquire a new player. Since 1/3 of the season has gone by roughly, there should be 2/3 of 22.7 million available. Am I mistaken? That is about 15 million. If we had to play the team we last had on the field agaist the Braves, we would lose a lot of games and not be on the pace to win 110 games and maybe not be able to even win the wild card. I am assuming Pedey will eventually hit and play well. We still had JBJ, a catcher, Swihart and others who are marginal if not downright poor major league hitters. I think the idea of DFAing Rameriz was to improve not only by subtraction but also by addition.

[S5Dewey]

I was under the impression that when we DFAed Rameriz his prorated salary became available to acquire a new player. Since 1/3 of the season has gone by roughly, there should be 2/3 of 22.7 million available. Am I mistaken? That is about 15 million. If we had to play the team we last had on the field agaist the Braves, we would lose a lot of games and not be on the pace to win 110 games and maybe not be able to even win the wild card. I am assuming Pedey will eventually hit and play well. We still had JBJ, a catcher, Swihart and others who are marginal if not downright poor major league hitters. I think the idea of DFAing Rameriz was to improve not only by subtraction but also by addition.

 

I don't think that's the way it works. Even though we've DFA'd Hanley he's still going to get all of this year's salary.

 

The best way we can get salary relief is if the Sox trade him. In that case the team that takes him in the trade is responsible for all of his remaining salary. That's why nobody is going to trade for him.

 

OTOH, the Sox have a week to trade him and after that week Hanley becomes a Free Agent and able to sign with any team without the Sox being involved. The Sox are then responsible for Hanley's entire 2018 salary minus whatever agreement Hanley might work out with another team.

In that situation Hanley has no incentive to drive up his price because he's going to get the same pay whether it comes from his new team or the Sox. Also the receiving team has no incentive to pay him more than the ML minimum because the Sox are going to pay whatever portion of Hanley's salary the receiving team pays. So he most likely will end up with the new team paying him the ML minimum and the Sox making up the difference.

 

The best case scenario for the Sox (other than a trade - which most likely won't happen) is for two or more teams to get into a bidding war for him, drive his price up and thereby drive the Sox commitment down. But don't hold your breath for anything meaningful. The savings come when/(if?) the Sox don't have to pay him for 2019.

 

BTW, how's your softball team doing?

[Bellhorn04]

....Swihart took strike three without taking the bat off his shoulder ...he can f*** off tonight

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

Is the Swihart honeymoon over already?

[jad]

I don't think that's the way it works. Even though we've DFA'd Hanley he's still going to get all of this year's salary.

 

The best way we can get salary relief is if the Sox trade him. In that case the team that takes him in the trade is responsible for all of his remaining salary. That's why nobody is going to trade for him.

 

OTOH, the Sox have a week to trade him and after that week Hanley becomes a Free Agent and able to sign with any team without the Sox being involved. The Sox are then responsible for Hanley's entire 2018 salary minus whatever agreement Hanley might work out with another team.

In that situation Hanley has no incentive to drive up his price because he's going to get the same pay whether it comes from his new team or the Sox. Also the receiving team has no incentive to pay him more than the ML minimum because the Sox are going to pay whatever portion of Hanley's salary the receiving team pays. So he most likely will end up with the new team paying him the ML minimum and the Sox making up the difference.

 

The best case scenario for the Sox (other than a trade - which most likely won't happen) is for two or more teams to get into a bidding war for him, drive his price up and thereby drive the Sox commitment down. But don't hold your breath for anything meaningful. The savings come when/(if?) the Sox don't have to pay him for 2019.

 

BTW, how's your softball team doing?

 

Exactly. And things could get even worse (I assume RS have to at least consider the possibility of a grievance on that vesting option). That + Pablo + Castillo should suggest to them that bad or wishful thinking on contracts can get you into a heap of difficulty, and that when you sign someone, you should think in terms of worst case scenarios rather than best-case (oh Pablo will be a fan favorite! I'm sure JD Drew will hit .300 rather than his career average. I'm sure the racist fans in Boston will embrace A. Gonzalez. No way Lester continues his great career. D. Price will be a Cy Young winner for years. Jackie Freaking Clark!!! Carl Crawford will be a lifetime .350 hitter! What could possibly happen if you let Pedro have one more batter? Shouldn't Buckner be allowed to be on the field when the series is wrapped up? ...)

[Bellhorn04]

Exactly. And things could get even worse (I assume RS have to at least consider the possibility of a grievance on that vesting option). That + Pablo + Castillo should suggest to them that bad or wishful thinking on contracts can get you into a heap of difficulty, and that when you sign someone, you should think in terms of worst case scenarios rather than best-case (oh Pablo will be a fan favorite! I'm sure JD Drew will hit .300 rather than his career average. I'm sure the racist fans in Boston will embrace A. Gonzalez. No way Lester continues his great career. D. Price will be a Cy Young winner for years. Jackie Freaking Clark!!! Carl Crawford will be a lifetime .350 hitter! What could possibly happen if you let Pedro have one more batter? Shouldn't Buckner be allowed to be on the field when the series is wrapped up? ...)

 

"One of these things is not like the others."

 

What you pointed out there is that sometimes there is a risk in not signing the player.

[moonslav59]

Nobody is going to pay HRam a significant salary. We may get more relief than we did for Pablo, but probably no more than a 2-4 million or so.

 

If you add that to the $2-3M we already have, I guess it might allow us to trade for 2 mid range salary guys (pro-rated) or one high salary guy (pro-rated).

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

....Swihart took strike three without taking the bat off his shoulder ...he can f*** off tonight

 

As I saw that I thought about his request for a trade. He has no trade value and apparently still believes he is a good young player.

[oldtimer]

As I saw that I thought about his request for a trade. He has no trade value and apparently still believes he is a good young player.

 

When we talk about a minimum pay utility player, you are hoping for a guy that is flexible and can play a number of positions. He fills that bill fairly well but so far his hitting is not good. His past history indicates he could bring that up somewhat and maybe enough to be acceptable for our utility needs. Can't see trading for anyone else nor do we have another utility player in the minors any better. Swiharts abiity to catch in a pinch is a valuable thing.

[moonslav59]

When we talk about a minimum pay utility player, you are hoping for a guy that is flexible and can play a number of positions. He fills that bill fairly well but so far his hitting is not good. His past history indicates he could bring that up somewhat and maybe enough to be acceptable for our utility needs. Can't see trading for anyone else nor do we have another utility player in the minors any better. Swiharts abiity to catch in a pinch is a valuable thing.

 

Look at Holt and Nunez OPS numbers. They both are around .700 career. Swi hart does not need to hit all that well to stick as a utility/3rd catcher role.

[Maxbialystock]

I continue to agree with the OP, that the Sox should not trade for an "offensive catcher."

[mvp 78]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

Is the Swihart honeymoon over already?

 

That sure didn't last long.

[mvp 78]

Look at Holt and Nunez OPS numbers. They both are around .700 career. Swi hart does not need to hit all that well to stick as a utility/3rd catcher role.

 

Difference being that Holt and Nunez have extensive IF/OF experience. Swihart has been bench fodder so far.

[moonslav59]

Difference being that Holt and Nunez have extensive IF/OF experience. Swihart has been bench fodder so far.

 

They both suck on defense. Swihart is unproven at any position on defense, but I think he has the potential to hit better than Holt and Nunez career numbers. The ability to be a 3rd catcher might at least balance the defensive end.

 

If he does hit better or the same, he should be able to stick at the ML level for some team.

[Bellhorn04]

They both suck on defense.

 

The numbers suggest Holt is pretty close to average on defense overall.

[mvp 78]

They both suck on defense. Swihart is unproven at any position on defense, but I think he has the potential to hit better than Holt and Nunez career numbers. The ability to be a 3rd catcher might at least balance the defensive end.

 

If he does hit better or the same, he should be able to stick at the ML level for some team.

 

Nunez is a good defensive OFer. I'd rather not have him in the IF very often.

 

Holt is ok at 2b or SS, but better as a corner OF.

[oldtimer]

Nunez is a good defensive OFer. I'd rather not have him in the IF very often.

 

Holt is ok at 2b or SS, but better as a corner OF.

 

Nunez was never known as a top defensive player and since he hurt his knee may have gotten worse. He is a professional hitter though and may be trying to shake off the knee issue. I like him on the team as a versatile utility player and offensive player.

[jung]

Don't need better offense from our Catcher. Could use Vaz/Leon coming back to their norms for defense because the Rotation is the strength of this team relative to the competition it faces and better defense at Catcher would help given that circumstance.

 

This team wins on:

Its rotation first

Its batting order 1-6 next

Its defense particularly if Pedey can stay in the lineup

Its bullpen

 

More offense 7-9 in the batting order is not going to mean much to this team especially if it detracts from any of its elements of relative strength to the competition.

[Slasher9]

....Swihart took strike three without taking the bat off his shoulder ...he can f*** off tonight

 

lol

[moonslav59]

Nunez was never known as a top defensive player and since he hurt his knee may have gotten worse. He is a professional hitter though and may be trying to shake off the knee issue. I like him on the team as a versatile utility player and offensive player.

 

He's a decent hitter with many seasons below "decent" for a starter, anyways.

 

He's had a seasonal OPS over .758 just once (2017), which was greatly aided by his 165 PAs in Boston at .892. He was at .752 with SF before coming here. I'm thinking our views of him being a good or very good hitter might be tainted by our observations over a small sample size last year.

 

He's a career .725 hitter. I'm thinking Swihart could surpass that.

 

Nunez has done better since 2015, so I'm fine with viewing him as a .750 type hitter going forward, even though he is nearing post-prime.

 

.758 2015

.758 2016

.801 2017

.617 2018

 

[moonslav59]

The numbers suggest Holt is pretty close to average on defense overall.

 

My eyes show that Holt & Nunez suck on defense, but the numbers show their ok here and there. I'll be consistent and go with those that have large enough sample sizes:

 

Nunez

SS: -13.4 (2091 innings) -42 DRS

2B: -9.7 (729 innings) -15 DRS

3B: -7.1 (1902 innings) -5 DRS

OF: +17.0 (322 innings) -3 DRS

 

He sucks.

 

B Holt

-10.1 3B (876 innings) -12 DRS

-6.0 1B (129 innings) -2 DRS

-3.8 2B (958 innings) +2 DRS

+2.5 OF (1237 innings) +18 DRS

+5.8 SS (286 innings) -5 DRS

 

He sucks, except in the OF. (SS is too small a sample size.)

 

 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

Nunez was never known as a top defensive player and since he hurt his knee may have gotten worse. He is a professional hitter though and may be trying to shake off the knee issue. I like him on the team as a versatile utility player and offensive player.

 

I'm not sure I want Nunez playing OF until his knee is 100%. That may one small reason why Swihart had more value than HRam.

[Bellhorn04]

My eyes show he sucks, but the numbers show he's ok in the OF, but I'll be consistent and go with those that have large enough sample sizes:

 

SS: -13.4 (2091 innings) -42 DRS

2B: -9.7 (729 innings) -15 DRS

3B: -7.1 (1902 innings) -5 DRS

OF: +17.0 (322 innings) -3 DRS

 

He sucks.

 

 

 

Where the heck did you get these numbers? They must be someone else's. For one thing Holt only has 286 innings at SS.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Bellhorn04

[moonslav59]

Where the heck did you get these numbers?

 

I was in a hurry and meant to do Nunez and Holt.

 

Those numbers are for Nunez.

 

I'll go back and correct it.

 

Sorry.