Kelly gets 6 games

[Sox75]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33uFpLiDNzQ

 

What in the hell are we still arguing about?

 

The cleats up & out at Holt was CLEARLY & INARGUABLY deliberate, and deserved a plunking!

 

END of story!

 

The "plunking" by Kelly was deliberate, and perfectly delivered. mlb 101.

 

Mookie's slide has nothing to do with this!

 

The fight was inevitable, & awesome! The punishment ? ? ? too much, and should be reduced to 2 games.

 

Either way . . . Why argue? It was PERFECT!

[moonslav59]

Because Mookie Betts was out by the hyperbolic mile, the Tampa Bay infielder had time to get out of the way by stepping back and away from the base. Nevertheless, Betts went to the side and past the bag to upend the second baseman with a near cross-body block.

 

I said I was not defending Betts. You are defending Austin.

[harmony]

And this is the crux of this argument - such as it is. Harmony has no case and he knows it so he's trying to deflect the issue to something Mookie did three years ago.

 

Austin clearly went out of his way to come into contact with Holt with his spikes up - the angle from left field proves it. What Mookie may or may not have done in 2015 has no bearing on what Austin did in 2018. End of story.

An as I have written: "A hypothetical jury could determine that Tyler Austin and Joe Kelly acted with intent." I'm not absolving Austin but I have provided videos that call into question factual allegations on this forum.

 

Or not:o.

 

The MLB front office (and many organizations) consider reported misconduct by comparing the conduct with past misconduct and how that conduct was handled.

 

I found it interesting that the (presumably) Red Sox announcer proclaimed the Mookie Betts slide as "as good, clean, hard slide" even though on some levels it was more egregious than the Tyler Austin slide.

 

I should know better than to cast a Red Sox icon in negative light.

Edited April 15, 2018 by harmony

[harmony]

The "plunking" by Kelly was deliberate, and perfectly delivered. mlb 101.

I get this even if I don't agree.

 

I work with some people involved in gangs that have their own extrajudicial rules of conduct.

[moonslav59]

I get this even if I don't agree.

 

 

What you don't get is the intentionality of Austin's slide.

[harmony]

What you don't get is the intentionality of Austin's slide.

I have no doubt the slide was intentional ... Tyler Austin did not accidentally fall to his backside.

 

Tyler Austin may have intentionally attempted to break up an anticipated double play attempt.

 

Tyler Austin may have intentionally attempted to spike Brock Holt's leg.

 

As I have written: "A hypothetical jury could determine that Tyler Austin and Joe Kelly acted with intent."

Edited April 15, 2018 by harmony

[Sox75]

I have no doubt the slide was intentional ... Tyler Austin did not accidentally fall to his backside.

 

Tyler Austin may have intentionally attempted to break up an anticipated double play attempt.

 

Tyler Austin may have intentionally attempted to spike Brock Holt's leg.

 

As I have written: "A hypothetical jury could determine that Tyler Austin and Joe Kelly acted with intent."

 

But nobody is arguing about whether or not Kelly nailed him intentionally?

 

Of course he did! Everyone knows that. It is the "common law" punishment for the intentional cleats up take out slide. We all get it. They get it. It had to happen, & it did. Not at the head, between the shoulder blades. Unlike last year's unintentional head shot at Machado. Kelly just happens to have a cannon, and it hurt like hell. A good spirited fight ensued.

 

I'm missing the problem? I'm missing the argument.

[moonslav59]

I have no doubt the slide was intentional ... Tyler Austin did not accidentally fall to his backside.

 

Tyler Austin may have intentionally attempted to break up an anticipated double play attempt.

 

Tyler Austin may have intentionally attempted to spike Brock Holt's leg.

 

As I have written: "A hypothetical jury could determine that Tyler Austin and Joe Kelly acted with intent."

 

Yes, "could" implies doubt about intent.

 

There was no doubt both acts were with intent, and I'm not talking about "intent to break up a DP." It was intent to spike Holt's leg almost 2 feet from the base.

[Bellhorn04]

Exactly, so when he acted like a punk after Holt had words with him, he actually deserved 2 plunks.

 

LOL double punk = double plunk.

[S5Dewey]

An as I have written: "A hypothetical jury could determine that Tyler Austin and Joe Kelly acted with intent." I'm not absolving Austin but I have provided videos that call into question factual allegations on this forum.

 

 

I had a response to this ready to post and then I realized that should I do that I'm only 'feeding the troll'. No thanks. The facts (and the video) speak for themselves here. Here's some unbiased and pretty good advice.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpbS0jD7H2A

[cp176]

I had a response to this ready to post and then I realized that should I do that I'm only 'feeding the troll'. No thanks. The facts (and the video) speak for themselves here. Here's some unbiased and pretty good advice.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpbS0jD7H2A

 

For sure - I was going to post as well - not now. The gamesmanship is ridiculous. There has to be a certain fascination provided by a forum for some of these non-Red Sox fans to spend so much time commenting on it. This guy might be a wonderful reader and compiler of data but he does not know much about the playing of the game unless he googles it first. I can deal with someone disagreeing if they actually know the game.

[Bellhorn04]

harmony is by no means a troll in my books. But it's clear that he thinks us Sox fans are generally a bunch of biased blind homers and he likes to try to show us the error of our ways...

[Kimmi]

His foot went nearly 2 feet to the side of the base. It wasn't unintentional. There's no "probably" about it.

 

Of course there is 'probably' about it.

 

Look, I'm not trying to say it was an accident or that there was no intent. I am not disagreeing with your opinion on that. I think that his slide was intentional.

 

But to state that he 100% intentionally went in with spikes up is stating your opinion as a fact, which it's not. It's your opinion.

[Kimmi]

Exactly, so when he acted like a punk after Holt had words with him, he actually deserved 2 plunks.

 

I can't disagree with that.

[cp176]

harmony is by no means a troll in my books. But it's clear that he thinks us Sox fans are generally a bunch of biased blind homers and he likes to try to show us the error of our ways...

 

Simply put, maybe the expression troll doesn't describe him. Possibly anything Spud might say abut him is more appropriate I think after following this thread. In life, I try not to say a great deal about the things I really don't know anything about. There are plenty of things that I am sure he knows a great deal about.

[Kimmi]

And this is it in a nutshell. This is an instance that I would tell anyone who doesn't see it this way - they probably never played the game.

 

So, you are saying that someone's opinion is wrong, because it doesn't agree with yours. LOL

 

Holt himself said that he didn't think the slide was intentional. He thought it was a bad slide and that Austin got a little too excited or something to that effect. But he did not feel that there was any intent.

[Kimmi]

I like harmony, but have called him out when I think he's wrong.

 

I like Harmony too. I disagree with him, but he is entitled to his opinion, which he is arguing and supporting respectfully.

 

There is no reason for the condescension being directed at him by a couple of posters.

[Kimmi]

I lost some respect for Vaz. After Austin slammed his bat down, Vaz hesitated to get between him and Kelly. Once Austin started running, there was no way Vaz was going to catch him.

 

I didn't lose respect for Vaz, but I do agree that he should have gotten in between Austin and Kelly. I chalk it up to inexperience. We'll see how he handles a similar situation next time.

[Kimmi]

harmony is by no means a troll in my books. But it's clear that he thinks us Sox fans are generally a bunch of biased blind homers and he likes to try to show us the error of our ways...

 

We are biased, for sure. If you read the Yankees fans comments, their take on it is completely different, and they are as convinced that they are right as we are.

 

It's human nature.

[S5Dewey]

Simply put, maybe the expression troll doesn't describe him. Possibly anything Spud might say abut him is more appropriate I think after following this thread. In life, I try not to say a great deal about the things I really don't know anything about. There are plenty of things that I am sure he knows a great deal about.

 

I agree that on the whole he's not a troll. Probably an "agitator" is a better word for it. Maybe he sees himself as a Yankees friend of mine from another board has said (and yes, it's ok to have Yankees friends), he's just "keeping us honest". Of course, as I've said in the past, when someone uses "maybe" - as I just did - they're admitting that they don't have firm evidence to back up their position - they're just throwing something against the wall to see if it sticks.

 

However, IMHO on this particular topic he's either perpetuating the discussion for the sake of perpetuating it or else he can't stand to see someone else have the last word. Most of us here see the video evidence as being pretty clear regarding what Austin did around second base and his charging the mound. Those two things are quite indisputable to any reasonable "hypothetical jury".

 

The only thing that can be questioned is Kelly's response. IMO in the eyes of baseball people it was a normal - but unsanctioned - response while in the eyes of the "turn the other cheek" folks it's inexcusable.

 

I can live with that.

[moonslav59]

Of course there is 'probably' about it.

 

Look, I'm not trying to say it was an accident or that there was no intent. I am not disagreeing with your opinion on that. I think that his slide was intentional.

 

But to state that he 100% intentionally went in with spikes up is stating your opinion as a fact, which it's not. It's your opinion.

 

The nearly 2 feet to the side of the base that happened to be where Holt's foot and leg were was intentional. He was trying to break up the DP with his spikes hitting Holt's foot/leg. It was 100% intentional, and I don't think that's an opinion. It looks to me like an undisputable fact.

[Slasher9]

He’s a professional baseball player that has slid into 2nd base in games and practice a thousand times in his career. He 100% without a doubt knows how to slide without lifting his foot to spike the opposing player. He 100% without a doubt intentionally tried to spike holt.

[moonslav59]

He’s a professional baseball player that has slid into 2nd base in games and practice a thousand times in his career. He 100% without a doubt knows how to slide without lifting his foot to spike the opposing player. He 100% without a doubt intentionally tried to spike holt.

 

To me, the worse part was that the foot was aimed almost 2 feet to the left of the base he was supposed to be sliding into. He was aiming for Holt's leg- not the base. 18inches plus of course was no accident.

[cp176]

So, you are saying that someone's opinion is wrong, because it doesn't agree with yours. LOL

 

Holt himself said that he didn't think the slide was intentional. He thought it was a bad slide and that Austin got a little too excited or something to that effect. But he did not feel that there was any intent.

 

I'm pretty sure that you posted this because of my comment about someone who interpreted that slide like he did perhaps has never played or taught the game. Yup, I will stand behind that in this instance. I think that there are things about the game of baseball that Harmony does not get because of a lack of fundamental knowledge of the game. I probably should have added teaching the game also. Harmony is wrong not simply because I disagree with him but let me see - how about just about everyone else. If you are really trying to say that I am one of those rare rogues who believes that to understand anything that it helps to have experienced it you are right - guilty as charged.

[cp176]

He’s a professional baseball player that has slid into 2nd base in games and practice a thousand times in his career. He 100% without a doubt knows how to slide without lifting his foot to spike the opposing player. He 100% without a doubt intentionally tried to spike holt.

 

 

100%

[Spudboy]

I like Harmony too. I disagree with him, but he is entitled to his opinion, which he is arguing and supporting respectfully.

 

There is no reason for the condescension being directed at him by a couple of posters.

 

********.

 

If Jacko was trolling as hard as Harmony has been with this Austin thing all of you would be calling for his ban.

[Spudboy]

He’s a professional baseball player that has slid into 2nd base in games and practice a thousand times in his career. He 100% without a doubt knows how to slide without lifting his foot to spike the opposing player. He 100% without a doubt intentionally tried to spike holt.

 

To any honest person who has seen the play this is how it is.

 

Did Austin try to hurt Holt?

 

I am not sure. But he intentionally raised his left leg and foot toward Holt's leg. That is indisputable.

 

If Holt had been hurt There would be no other conclusion to come to other than Austin is a dirty player trying to hurt other players.

[cp176]

I like Harmony too. I disagree with him, but he is entitled to his opinion, which he is arguing and supporting respectfully.

 

There is no reason for the condescension being directed at him by a couple of posters.

 

 

Pretty sure you might be talking about me here. Condescending is not something I intentionally try to do but when I am repeatedly challenged with respect to one of the few things I consider myself knowledgeable about, it is likely that I'm not backing down from someone like him.

[Kimmi]

The nearly 2 feet to the side of the base that happened to be where Holt's foot and leg were was intentional. He was trying to break up the DP with his spikes hitting Holt's foot/leg. It was 100% intentional, and I don't think that's an opinion. It looks to me like an undisputable fact.

 

No matter how many times you say it, your opinion of Austin's intent is just that, an opinion. There is no way you can know for sure what his intent was. Only Austin knows that.

 

Now if you say that you are 100% convinced that it was intentional, I can live with that. But it's still your opinion, not a fact.

[Kimmi]

He’s a professional baseball player that has slid into 2nd base in games and practice a thousand times in his career. He 100% without a doubt knows how to slide without lifting his foot to spike the opposing player. He 100% without a doubt intentionally tried to spike holt.

 

Pitchers throw thousands of pitches. Does that mean every time they hit a batter that it was intentional?