Sox Managers

[Northern Star]

Who would be on your top 5 best and top 5 worst lists?

[moonslav59]

Best:

 

1. Tito

2. Dick Williams

3. Bill Carrigan

4. Jimmy Collins

5. jimmy Williams

(McNamara/Kennedy/Cronin)

 

Worst (My lifetime)

1. Joe Kerrigan (He once wanted Manny to change his swing.)

2. Bobby V.

3. Butch Hobson

4. D Johnson (Hated Bill Lee- I mean, come on!)

5. Joe Morgan

(John Farrell)

 

[mvp 78]

I can only do my lifetime:

 

Best to Worst:

Tito

Alex Cora

Jimmy Williams

John Farrell

Joe Morgan

Grady Little

McNamara

Zimmer

Houk

Kennedy

Hobson

Kerrigan

Bobby V

Pesky

[moonslav59]

I can only do my lifetime:

 

Best to Worst:

Tito

Alex Cora

Jimmy Williams

John Farrell

Joe Morgan

Grady Little

McNamara

Zimmer

Houk

Kennedy

Hobson

Kerrigan

Bobby V

Pesky

 

If you were here for Pesky, then what about Johnson?

[mvp 78]

If you were here for Pesky, then what about Johnson?

 

I was born after the 76 season. Pesky managed in 80.

[moonslav59]

I was born after the 76 season. Pesky managed in 80.

 

I forgot about the 5 games he managed that year. I was thinking of the 60's.

[Bellhorn04]

I can only do my lifetime:

 

Best to Worst:

Tito

Alex Cora

Jimmy Williams

John Farrell

Joe Morgan

Grady Little

McNamara

Zimmer

Houk

Kennedy

Hobson

Kerrigan

Bobby V

Pesky

 

Like it.

[mvp 78]

I forgot about the 5 games he managed that year. I was thinking of the 60's.

 

Part of my determination is based on how he coached the PawSox in 90 when my family had season tickets. He was also overrated as a player (the same JAWS as John Valentin).

[mvp 78]

Like it.

 

Cora is going to win one WS before the cliff happens. Then as the team is plummeting off the cliff, he's going to sprout wings like an eagle and help the team soar to another one. I just can't put him above Tito yet, because he'd need to win at least 4 WS titles and he'd probably only win 3. The 2004 title is basically double credit for Tito.

[Maxbialystock]

I can only do my lifetime:

 

Best to Worst:

Tito

Alex Cora

Jimmy Williams

John Farrell

Joe Morgan

Grady Little

McNamara

Zimmer

Houk

Kennedy

Hobson

Kerrigan

Bobby V

Pesky

 

This to me is more credible than moonslav's list. To be perfectly honest, even though I was a solid Sox fan as early as 1949, I was mostly oblivious of the managers because I was literally unable to watch or listen to Red Sox games--except for the 1953 and 1954 seasons when I lived in western Massachusetts--until 2003 or 2004 when I could get them on satellite TV.

 

But like almost every Sox fan, I know about the 86 year drought which John Henry ended. Tito did a good job, but he also had awfully good hitting anchored by Manny and Papi for both WS titles and good enough pitching. Ditto for Farrell in 2013 but without Manny.

[mvp 78]

This to me is more credible than moonslav's list.

 

Aren't all of my posts more credible than his?

[cp176]

Best:

 

1. Tito

2. Dick Williams

3. Bill Carrigan

4. Jimmy Collins

5. jimmy Williams

(McNamara/Kennedy/Cronin)

 

Worst (My lifetime)

1. Joe Kerrigan (He once wanted Manny to change his swing.)

2. Bobby V.

3. Butch Hobson

4. D Johnson (Hated Bill Lee- I mean, come on!)

5. Joe Morgan

(John Farrell)

 

 

Not going to argue Tito at the top. Good list. Dick Williams is a must ahead of all others though.

[Bellhorn04]

Best:

 

1. Tito

2. Dick Williams

3. Bill Carrigan

4. Jimmy Collins

5. jimmy Williams

(McNamara/Kennedy/Cronin)

 

Worst (My lifetime)

1. Joe Kerrigan (He once wanted Manny to change his swing.)

2. Bobby V.

3. Butch Hobson

4. D Johnson (Hated Bill Lee- I mean, come on!)

5. Joe Morgan

(John Farrell)

 

 

Did you mean Don Zimmer hated Bill Lee?

 

(I don't know, maybe Johnson had problems with him too.)

[mvp 78]

Johnson was named 1975’s Major League Manager of the Year by The Sporting News. And once again he was given the St. Louis Brownie of the Year Award by those who still kept the faith. Sportswriters covering the World Series noted that Johnson had become more bitter, was livid regarding the Armbrister incident, and was observed as becoming “surly and quick-tempered in his relations with the World Series press.” Former Red Sox manager Dick Williams empathized with Johnson, noting the pressure, and called him an “intense, inward” but “outstanding” person who simply hadn’t adjusted as well to dealing with the press as Williams himself had.7 Red Sox pitcher Bill Lee had his criticisms, expressed in the immediate aftermath of the World Series: “Johnson has been falling out of trees all summer and landing on his feet.”8

[mvp 78]

Years later, Bill Lee said "He was easygoing. We played well under him. He was a very knowledgeable baseball guy. He handled players well. He was one of my all-time favorites."

[illinoisredsox]

1. Terry Francona (no question)

2. Joe Morgan (2 divisions with not a lot of talent, who can forget "these guys aren't as good as they think they are" after he was let go)

3. Jimy Williams (went back and forth between him and JF, in the end, the 2 last place finishes knocked Farrell down)

4. John Farrell (1 title is a big plus)

5. John McNamara (2 mediocre seasons sandwiched around what should have been the year)

6. Darrell Johnson (1 pennant and lost to the Big Red Machine, but he never should have pinch hit for Willoughby in Game 7)

7. Kevin Kennedy (1 unexpected division title)

8. Don Zimmer (would have been higher had the wild card existed, who knows what could have happened)

9. Grady Little (blew the 2003 pennant)

10. Ralph Houk (defined mediocrity)

11. Butch Hobson (ranks above the other 2 only because of the talent he had, see Joe Morgans comment above)

12. Bobby Valentine (disaster with a very good team on paper)

13. Joe Kerrigan (the fact that he only lasted about 40 games says a lot)

 

I limited my list to guys I actually could judge (I remember Dick Williams and Eddie Kasko, but I really have no basis on which to judge them, Williams caught lightning in a bottle in 67 but did little else, Kasko = Ralph Houk as near as I can tell). Guys like Pesky and Eddie Popowski, who managed but a handful of games, don't count.

[mvp 78]

1988 team had not a lot of talent? Evans, Rice, Clemens, Boggs, Burks, Greenwell...

[royf19]

1. Terry Francona (no question)

2. Joe Morgan (2 divisions with not a lot of talent, who can forget "these guys aren't as good as they think they are" after he was let go)

3. Jimy Williams (went back and forth between him and JF, in the end, the 2 last place finishes knocked Farrell down)

4. John Farrell (1 title is a big plus)

5. John McNamara (2 mediocre seasons sandwiched around what should have been the year)

6. Darrell Johnson (1 pennant and lost to the Big Red Machine, but he never should have pinch hit for Willoughby in Game 7)

7. Kevin Kennedy (1 unexpected division title)

8. Don Zimmer (would have been higher had the wild card existed, who knows what could have happened)

9. Grady Little (blew the 2003 pennant)

10. Ralph Houk (defined mediocrity)

11. Butch Hobson (ranks above the other 2 only because of the talent he had, see Joe Morgans comment above)

12. Bobby Valentine (disaster with a very good team on paper)

13. Joe Kerrigan (the fact that he only lasted about 40 games says a lot)

 

I limited my list to guys I actually could judge (I remember Dick Williams and Eddie Kasko, but I really have no basis on which to judge them, Williams caught lightning in a bottle in 67 but did little else, Kasko = Ralph Houk as near as I can tell). Guys like Pesky and Eddie Popowski, who managed but a handful of games, don't count.

 

I like the list overall, but I would move Ralph Houk up to fifth. I thought he did a great job getting 89 wins out of the 1982 team. The '83 team had major holes at the bottom of the lineup and the pitching staff had guys not quite ready -- Hurst, Boyd, Ojeja -- plus Eck I his worst years with the Sox and there was just two reliable arms in the bullpen in Stanley and Aponte.

 

And who knows what would have happened in '81 if it weren't for the strike. The Sox were fifth overall in the AL East but just 2.5 games behind Milwaukee as Brewere, O's, Tigers, Yankees and Sox were all bunched up. I would have much rathered had Houk in '86 than McNamara. Houk didn't have nearly have the talent that Zimmer or McNamara had.

[moonslav59]

Did you mean Don Zimmer hated Bill Lee?

 

(I don't know, maybe Johnson had problems with him too.)

 

I think Zim did, too, but I remember the group of Lee, Carbo and I think Willoughby during the Johnson era. I forget their nickname... something like the "White Buffalos".

 

However, Lee was traded while Zim was the manager.

[Bellhorn04]

I think Zim did, too, but I remember the group of Lee, Carbo and I think Willoughby during the Johnson era. I forget their nickname... something like the "White Buffalos".

 

However, Lee was traded while Zim was the manager.

 

I think it was 'Buffalo Heads' and I think that was during the Zimmer years. Lee, Carbo and Willoughby were all traded or moved during that time.

 

Lee of course was banished to Zimmer's doghouse in 1978, leading to the infamous Bobby Sprowl game.

 

The trade of Carbo also hurt us in 1978 when we had a terrible bench.

[cp176]

Dick Williams brought a cast of young characters for the most part along over the course of possibly the most memorable summer of play that we have seen. People do tend to remember the stars or future stars and what they did. But keeping that team together with the pitching staff that they had following Lonborg and the revolving door at numerous positions was magical. After the Conigliaro injury, they could have packed it in but they didn't. Williams should be on every list of Red Sox great coaches whether you saw him or not. One star - one blue chip star and a bunch of kids. Very little comes close to what they accomplished. it began and ended with Dick Williams.

[moonslav59]

Dick Williams brought a cast of young characters for the most part along over the course of possibly the most memorable summer of play that we have seen. People do tend to remember the stars or future stars and what they did. But keeping that team together with the pitching staff that they had following Lonborg and the revolving door at numerous positions was magical. After the Conigliaro injury, they could have packed it in but they didn't. Williams should be on every list of Red Sox great coaches whether you saw him or not. One star - one blue chip star and a bunch of kids. Very little comes close to what they accomplished. it began and ended with Dick Williams.

 

I totally agree. Williams took a terrible team from the year before to great heights. One game from a ring, when nobody expected them to even have a winning record.

[moonslav59]

No Sox team has won 100 or more games since 1946.

 

Who was the manager in the only 99 win regular season in 80+ years?

 

Zimmer 99 in 1978 (2nd place)

 

Others since 1950....

 

Tito 98 in 2004 (2nd place) WS

 

Farrell 97 in 2013 (1st) WS

Zimmer 97 in 1977 (2nd)

 

Tito 96 in 2007 (1st) WS

 

Tito 95 in 2009 (2nd)

Tito 95 in 2008 (2nd)

Tito 95 in 2005 (2nd)

Johnson 95 in 1975 (1st) Lost WS

 

J Williams 94 in 1999 (2nd)

 

Farrell 93 in 2017 (1st)

Farrell 93 in 2016 (1st)

Little 93 in 2002 (2nd)

 

D Williams 92 in 1967 (1st) Lost WS

J Willimas 92 in 1998 (2nd)

 

Zimmer 91 in 1979 (3rd)

 

Tito 90 in 2011 (3rd)

 

Of course, this isn't the full story. For one thing, Dick Williams led his team to a division win in a 10 team division, while other often finished 2nd in a 5 team division. One of Tito's WS wins (2004) was as a wild card team. Some managers never had that chance. Stength of division was also a big factor. (Then again, the playoff runs to the WS were shorter.)