Stanton or Votto

[jacksonianmarch]

The former Marlins President was on mlb radio today. He said the Marlins lost money 3 years straight. They built a deep offense, but when Jose Fernandez died, the pitching aspect fell to tatters. They don’t have the money to get pitching and their farm sucked. The Marlins were stuck being the Rangers of the early 00s. All offense, no pitching and multiple last place or 3rd place finishes. They had to tank and start over. There was no other way around it.

[notin]

The former Marlins President was on mlb radio today. He said the Marlins lost money 3 years straight. They built a deep offense, but when Jose Fernandez died, the pitching aspect fell to tatters. They don’t have the money to get pitching and their farm sucked. The Marlins were stuck being the Rangers of the early 00s. All offense, no pitching and multiple last place or 3rd place finishes. They had to tank and start over. There was no other way around it.

 

1. They came in 2nd in the NL East last year.

 

2. They still have no farm.

 

3. They still have no pitching.

 

4. They're going to come in last in the NL East for a few years, but on the bright side no one will be there to see it...

[Larry Cook]

1. They came in 2nd in the NL East last year.

 

2. They still have no farm.

 

3. They still have no pitching.

 

4. They're going to come in last in the NL East for a few years, but on the bright side no one will be there to see it...

 

Very true! Maybe they should start looking for relocation options now. Vegas for example!

[moonslav59]

I've always felt like North Carolina deserved a team.

[Bellhorn04]

No.

 

The Marlins had the option to NOT sell the reigning NL MVP for pennies on the dollar.

 

And they were in talks wth the Dodgers. Think the Dodgers got to offer 2 A-ballers and a $20mill MLB player?

 

There's some interesting info on MLBTR about what the Dodgers reportedly offered for Stanton.

[jacksonianmarch]

1. They came in 2nd in the NL East last year.

 

2. They still have no farm.

 

3. They still have no pitching.

 

4. They're going to come in last in the NL East for a few years, but on the bright side no one will be there to see it...

 

Yes they came in 2nd but they lost the division by 20 games. They missed WC#2 by 10 games. They weren’t heading for the playoffs even with their offense crushing balls left and right. Like I said, they were the Rangers of the early 2000s. They had massive power and put up runs, but their pitching was awful. And they were losing money. It’s okay to lose money when you’re top dog, you’ll recoup that value in the value of the franchise and eventually when you rebuild. But they were losing money and losing ball games. If I were Jeter, I’d sell off every guaranteed contract. I’d deal even the arb guys and pre arb guy. If you’re gonna suck, go all out in sucking. By the time the current pre arb guys hit FA, you’ll still be in the rebuild. I’d deal Osuna and Yelich. They have one young pitcher who had a good year, I deal him too. Go for the gusto, 40 wins, 3-4 years of 1st pick overall, load the farm, sign INTL players and rebuild the old fashioned way

[Bellhorn04]

The Dodgers reportedly wanted the Marlins to take either A-Gon or Kazmir plus eat 30 million of Stanton's contract.

 

One reason the Dodgers reportedly weren't as keen as the Yanks was the prospect of Stanton being a DH type in the last few years of his contract.

 

Sometimes the DH rule difference can be a significant factor in player transactions - maybe that's a good reason they should unify the league rules one way or the other.

[Jack Flap]

Stanton was always going to be in control here, but I do think the Marlins played their cards poorly and could/should have been able to do better. Seems like a better way to go about things would have been to make a public show of wanting to keep and build around Stanton while privately figuring out what clubs he would accept and quietly seeing what could be worked out with those clubs; instead, they pissed away their leverage by making it known that Stanton HAD to be traded and by carrying on very public negotiations with teams he did not want to play for, and once he rejected those teams, they were f***ed.

 

It's all an excellent case study in why never to give out unlimited no-trade clauses...

[Kimmi]

If you give them two nobody A-ballers, the Marlins will knock off $50mill.*

 

*Offer valid to New York Yankees only

 

LOL I like this Mike Silva tweet:

 

Two things should come out of Stanton and NYY: collusion investigation on Jeter and proof they feel deep down Judge isn’t sustainable

[Kimmi]

Stanton had control of the process here though. He got to pick and choose. It was a lot like a free agent signing.

 

I wonder if Jeter got in his ear though, and talked the Yankees up to him. Or told him that you either agree to this trade or you'll be stuck here with a stripped down team. It is a little strange that Stanton was so set on going to the west coast but then seemingly agreed to the Yankees out of the blue.

[Kimmi]

No.

 

The Marlins had the option to NOT sell the reigning NL MVP for pennies on the dollar.

 

And they were in talks wth the Dodgers. Think the Dodgers got to offer 2 A-ballers and a $20mill MLB player?

 

The Dodgers apparently were very wary of that contract, especially the fact that it's so back loaded. That being the case, they might not have been willing to take on as much money as the Yankees did, which seems to be the top priority for the Marlins.

[NativeBostonian]

The problem is Stanton is the guy most likely to generate any actual income for your team. He's a league MVP, HR champ and gate draw.

 

Meanwhile the Marlins are still paying Brad Ziegler ($7mill) and Junichi Tazawa ($5mill), and will pay yhe arbitration costs for Marcell Ozuna ($11mill projected) and Dan Straily ($4.6mill projected). Unloading those players, all of whom are tradable for something better than an A ball pitcher0, saves more money per year. Short term but you keep your best asset. and if Wei-Yin Chen ($54mill per 3 years) comes back healthy, he becomes a trade candidate.

 

And don't forget the reason Stanton got that contract in the first place was to show Marlins' fans this team wasn't always going to be about firesales and salary dumps Stanton received that offer in the wake of the Josh Johnson/Jose Reyes trade with the Blue Jays as a how of good intentions to the fans.

 

This trade just pounded the biggest nail into the Marlins' fanbase coffin. The man who was meant to be their symbol against firesale salary dumps was just dumped somewhere else for nothing.

 

It's a shame they worked so hard to make MLB pay for that big new stadium a few years ago. Maybe they can get some cash back there selling the chairs. They won't be needing them because whatever fans were left are not coming back this time...

 

But.hey, they saved a few bucks doing it.

 

Swinging money around in baseball, in Florida, doesn’t work. Even if you do well, it’s not sustainable. Jeter is just doing what needs to be done in that market.

[Kimmi]

Stanton was always going to be in control here, but I do think the Marlins played their cards poorly and could/should have been able to do better. Seems like a better way to go about things would have been to make a public show of wanting to keep and build around Stanton while privately figuring out what clubs he would accept and quietly seeing what could be worked out with those clubs; instead, they pissed away their leverage by making it known that Stanton HAD to be traded and by carrying on very public negotiations with teams he did not want to play for, and once he rejected those teams, they were f***ed.

 

It's all an excellent case study in why never to give out unlimited no-trade clauses...

 

The Marlins did handle the whole situation poorly, letting it be known that dumping Stanton's contract was a priority. I don't know whether it was Stanton or the Marlins who leaked all the information about who he would accept a trade to, but that didn't help either.

[Kimmi]

Swinging money around in baseball, in Florida, doesn’t work. Even if you do well, it’s not sustainable. Jeter is just doing what needs to be done in that market.

 

Giving Stanton that contract to begin with was stupid.

[Bellhorn04]

I wonder if Jeter got in his ear though, and talked the Yankees up to him. Or told him that you either agree to this trade or you'll be stuck here with a stripped down team. It is a little strange that Stanton was so set on going to the west coast but then seemingly agreed to the Yankees out of the blue.

 

FWIW there's an interesting piece in the NY Post today suggesting that trading Stanton to the Yanks was not what he wanted to do.

 

https://nypost.com/2017/12/10/its-killing-derek-jeter-that-he-might-be-helping-the-yankees/

[Bellhorn04]

Giving Stanton that contract to begin with was stupid.

 

Was it stupid for Loria though?

[OH FOY]

Stanton is going to put a lot of people in the seats. Everywhere. Make your money back easy. In a year Harper will get 40 million, and whoever signs him, will make their money back too. Even if you go over Luxury Tax, these Owners are OK. Edited December 10, 2017 by OH FOY!

[Kimmi]

FWIW there's an interesting piece in the NY Post today suggesting that trading Stanton to the Yanks was not what he wanted to do.

 

https://nypost.com/2017/12/10/its-killing-derek-jeter-that-he-might-be-helping-the-yankees/

 

Yeah, I saw that earlier. I don't really think that Jeter was intentionally giving the Yankees a good deal to help them out, but I'm not buying that it's killing him that he helped out his former team either.

[Kimmi]

Was it stupid for Loria though?

 

In what sense? If he knew he was selling the team now, then for him personally, it was not stupid because the contract is so back loaded.

 

But for the franchise in general, yes it was stupid.

[Bellhorn04]

In what sense? If he knew he was selling the team now, then for him personally, it was not stupid because the contract is so back loaded.

 

 

That's what I mean, I think it paid off for Loria personally, sad as that may be.

[Kimmi]

That's what I mean, I think it paid off for Loria personally, sad as that may be.

 

Yeah, I don't disagree with that.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

I posted this article in another thread; it is worth reading:

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2017/12/9/16756778/giancarlo-stanton-trade-miami-marlins-new-york-yankees-bruce-sherman

 

I think MLB screwed up when they agreed to sell the Marlins to a scumbag like Sherman. They really should have been more cautious and found a better owner. Sherman tried to shield himself by bringing in D.Jeter (another scumbag, but someone who is loved by baseball people). By using Jeter as his front, Sherman was hoping that MLB would overlook some of his prior business practices. It worked. Jeter was essentially the attractive whore and Sherman was the pimp behind it all.

 

Sherman has experience doing just that to beloved privately owned civic institutions, when a little more than a decade ago, he gutted the Knight Ridder newspaper company, leaving dozens of the country’s most prestigious news organizations—including the Miami Herald—with skeleton staffs and shoestring budgets. The baseball world should have known better than to greet Sherman’s purchase of the team as a relief.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Fan_since_Boggs

[Bellhorn04]

I posted this article in another thread; it is worth reading:

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2017/12/9/16756778/giancarlo-stanton-trade-miami-marlins-new-york-yankees-bruce-sherman

 

I think MLB screwed up when they agreed to sell the Marlins to a scumbag like Sherman. They really should have been more cautious and found a better owner. Sherman tried to shield himself by bringing in D.Jeter (another scumbag, but someone who is loved by baseball people). By using Jeter as his front, Sherman was hoping that MLB would overlook some of his prior business practices. It worked. Jeter was essentially the attractive whore and Sherman was the pimp behind it all.

 

Sounds right.

[cp176]

This deal has a certain smell to it an odor the reminds me of the good old days of Yankee Red Sox rivalries when the Yanks were buying their way to tenants. In general, I never cared much about it but this one stinks. I said a long time ago that if Stanton ever went to the Sox that Jeter would not be able to walk the streets of New York again. Stanton was never going to come to Boston! Regardless of what anyone thinks of this particular deal it stinks. I don't think that it was a great desire on his part to go to New York regardless of how many people here extoll the virtues of that magnificent city. It will be interesting to see and hear what develops as we move forward. Maybe it is just business as usual and maybe it isn't.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

This deal has a certain smell to it an odor the reminds me of the good old days of Yankee Red Sox rivalries when the Yanks were buying their way to tenants.

 

We went through a period in the early 2000s where a team like the Yankees could essentially outspend everyone and buy their way into the playoffs every year. This happened in the late 1990s too--the Yankees economic advantages were a key reason behind their success and allowed them to bring in guys like Clemons, D.Cone. Other teams couldn't afford such players.

 

Then we went through a period where economic inequality (in baseball) didn't seem to be such a factor in determining success. Even some of the small market clubs were getting billions in TV revenue and thus could afford quality free agents or could afford to give extensions to their top players.

 

But now, we seem to be entering into a period that resembles the early 2000s with big market teams shelling out (or taking on) huge contracts while small market teams aren't serious contenders for top available talent. As a result, the big market teams will be more successful, will dominate the smaller markets in the standings. Last year, three of the biggest spenders made the playoffs: Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox. All three teams will likely make it again in 2018.

 

This is the difference between the NFL and MLB. The NFL has a better system--they share revenues and have a salary cap and this makes the NFL more competitive. Whereas in MLB, you can pretty much buy yourself a playoff appearance through outspending the competition.

 

Brian Cashman will never get the credit he arguably deserves unless he goes somewhere else and succeeds. As everyone knows, Cashman's success as a front office executive is largely based on the Yankees outspending the competition. For example, the Yankees don't win a championship in 2009 if they can't afford Sabathia and Texiera, not to mention the huge contract the Yankees gave A-Rod after the 2007 season. A-Rod was on juice during the 2009 championship run--he hit really well in the playoffs that year especially against the Twins.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Fan_since_Boggs

[jacksonianmarch]

Boo freakin who. You’re crying inequity here yet your team is going to spend more than $30 mil more than the Yankees are looking to spend. Look in the mirror

[Nick]

Boo freakin who. You’re crying inequity here yet your team is going to spend more than $30 mil more than the Yankees are looking to spend. Look in the mirror

 

Hey, that's the Yawkey Way.

[moonslav59]

Giving Stanton that contract to begin with was stupid.

 

He was worth it--just not for a team that can't afford it.

[cp176]

Boo freakin who. You’re crying inequity here yet your team is going to spend more than $30 mil more than the Yankees are looking to spend. Look in the mirror

 

Slasher alert - where are you when we need you? lol

[dgalehouse]

No matter how much we hear about baseball being a business , we still seem to forget it. It really is a business . A business that is very profitable for the owners , executives , players , agents , etc. We fans pay the freight for it all. We say nonsensical things like " I hope " we " don't overpay for so and so. " What fools we can be. We take out our anger and frustration by venting in stadiums , at home and in forums such as this. We call them names like "scumbags " . But we always come back for more. Professional athletes are part of the entertainment industry. Just like those Hollywood Prima donnas . Of course they are overpaid egotists. But we are the ones who feed their overpaid egos. Please spare me/us the outrage over a guy like Stanton signing with the Yankees. That is the way it goes. Get over it. P.T. Barnum said , " There's a sucker born every minute " . How true. And we are the suckers. But we seem to love it. Edited December 11, 2017 by dgalehouse