6 Inning Starts + 6 Man Roration = Fewer Arm Problems

[bosoxmal]

Nobody knew it them (except maybe Ted Williams) but the adven of th slider signaled more pitching problems, Especially late in the season. That is getting worse every year. Ask any of the Sox staff. But that would be management's style, would it?

[mvp 78]

Not until they allow for a 27 man roster or treat game day rosters like the NBA, NFL or NHL where you can sit someone and not have them actively on the roster for that day.

[Bellhorn04]

We already have the 6 inning starts, generally speaking.

[mvp 78]

We already have the 6 inning starts, generally speaking.

 

I think he's asking for a 6 man rotation too, which is a much bigger change IMO.

[moonslav59]

Not until they allow for a 27 man roster or treat game day rosters like the NBA, NFL or NHL where you can sit someone and not have them actively on the roster for that day.

 

I've been a big proponent of going to a 27 man roster- even 26 would be much better.

 

I know the game is slowed down so much by pitching changes, and this would allow for some more, but for the sake of preventing the league's best players from continually getting hurt, and to allow for some creative managaing to take place, going to a 27 man roster makes a ton of sense.

 

The player's union might even make a concession elsewhere to get this.

[jacksonianmarch]

It's not up to the players union for a 6 man rotation. Also, the GM's wouldn't buy this. Starting pitchers have bloated salaries and now you are asking to increase the spots by 20%. This will drive up salaries, which the players would love, but GM's wouldn't and the cap wouldn't accommodate it. This is a moot point

[Carpin]

It's not up to the players union for a 6 man rotation. Also, the GM's wouldn't buy this. Starting pitchers have bloated salaries and now you are asking to increase the spots by 20%. This will drive up salaries, which the players would love, but GM's wouldn't and the cap wouldn't accommodate it. This is a moot point

 

It will obviously have some effect on salaries, but that 6th spot in the rotation should not been anywhere close to the current salaries for a 4th/5th SP, that extra spot should be something close (salary wise) to a current long man, spot starter or a rookie.

[OH FOY]

How many starts would you think your #1 would miss in a season?

[Bellhorn04]

Chris Sale led the majors with 214.1 innings pitched this year.

 

That seemed like a really low total for the MLB leader, and looking back at previous years I confirmed that the top number was generally 230 innings and up.

 

So there may already be a campaign underway to reduce the workload of starters.

 

And yes, it's ironic that Sale was #1 considering some of the discussions about how he tends to fade in the second half.

[a700hitter]

How many starts would you think your #1 would miss in a season?

Five

[bosoxmal]

How many starts would you think your #1 would miss in a season?

 

Statistically, about 25 % fewer startes. Actually,, very few. He might still have a strong arm come October! You can't get along these days without a slider. Guys that go out there and throw 98 mph with 1/2 of them sliders can log foreard to being a "David Price case".By Ocober this season it was mainly relief pitchers throwing that hard.

[fxkatt]

Bob Feller in the 1940s recorded seasons with the following total innings pitched count: 372, 343, 321, 300, 298 Dizzy Trout had 354 in one of those years.

 

Later there was Gaylord Perry and Wilbur Wood with seasons way up in the 300s.

 

Pitchers get huge salaries now and have to be protected. so 212 innings leads the league

 

20 Win seasons now are almost miraculous--and depend on lucky team support, when there were teams in the past which had three 20-game winners in the same year.

Edited October 20, 2017 by fxkatt

[illinoisredsox]

Bob Feller in the 1940s recorded seasons with the following total innings pitched count: 372, 343, 321, 300, 298 Dizzy Trout had 354 in one of those years.

 

Later there was Gaylord Perry and Wilbur Wood with seasons way up in the 300s.

 

Pitchers get huge salaries now and have to be protected. so 212 innings leads the league

 

20 Win seasons now are almost miraculous--and depend on lucky team support, when there were teams in the past which had three 20-game winners in the same year.

 

I want to say it was 1970 but it may have been 1971, the Orioles had 4 20 game winners. Jim Palmer, Mike Cuellar, Dave McNally and Pat Dobson.

[mvp 78]

Chris Sale led the majors with 214.1 innings pitched this year.

 

That seemed like a really low total for the MLB leader, and looking back at previous years I confirmed that the top number was generally 230 innings and up.

 

So there may already be a campaign underway to reduce the workload of starters.

 

And yes, it's ironic that Sale was #1 considering some of the discussions about how he tends to fade in the second half.

 

That's not "irony". That's proof that he threw too many innings.

[bosoxmal]

i want to say it was 1970 but it may have been 1971, the orioles had 4 20 game winners. Jim palmer, mike cuellar, dave mcnally and pat dobson.

 

and how many pitchers featured a slider in 1970? Zero!!

[mvp 78]

and how many pitchers featured a slider in 1970? Zero!!

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=neyer_rob&id=1786104

 

So who threw the first great slider? Red Ruffing and Johnny Allen, big stars in the 1930s, are real possibilities, and Feller also is a candidate. With most of the great pitchers drafted into the Army or Navy during World War II (Feller actually enlisted), there weren't a lot of great pitches thrown during those years. But Feller came back after the war, and wrote in his book, "It was the slider which was of the greatest help to me in 1946 when I established a strikeout record of 348 for a season. I used it in many spots where I had used a curve before."

 

Feller pitched for the Guardians, of course, and he soon was joined by another great slider. In the late 1940s, Guardians outfielder Bob Lemon became Guardians pitcher Bob Lemon, and he learned the slider from pitching coach Mel Harder. Lemon's in the Hall of Fame, and he probably wouldn't be there without his slider.

 

Dick Donovan's not in the Hall of Fame, but he did come up with a Hall of Fame slider in the 1950s, and in 1961 his 2.40 ERA was the lowest in the majors. Meanwhile, Jim Bunning was throwing a great slider of which Ted Williams later said, "unlike most sliders, Bunning's tended to rise, he kind of slung it sidearm ..." And Bunning, like Lemon, eventually wound up in the Hall of Fame.

 

Bob Gibson probably threw the best slider of the 1960s, but the decade didn't see a lot of great sliders. Most of the best pitchers of the '60s threw overpowering fastballs and tough curveballs (overhand or sidearm), in part because the conditions of the time rewarded pitchers with that style.

 

In the 1970s, though, things changed. One of the most vivid memories of my youth involves listening to Royals games on the radio, and hearing Denny Matthews or Fred White refer to an opposition starter as a "sinker/slider guy." Those were the two pitches of the '70s: good sinker, hard slider. Steve Carlton's slider was known as perhaps the toughest pitch in the National League, and for a few years Sparky Lyle dominated American League hitters while throwing mostly sliders. In the 1980s, reliever Larry Andersen perfected his slider to the point where he rarely bothered throwing anything else. And in the 1990s, Randy Johnson threw what might have been the scariest slider -- just ask John Kruk -- ever.

[bosoxmal]

Just a note:

 

Ron Guidry eas credited with being the first to master the slider in 1978. That year he had a rediculous record (25-3 or somethning like hat). In 1981 he started to have arm problems. Teg Williams once told someon he got out just in time--before everyone started throwing the slider.

[mvp 78]

Just a note:

 

Ron Guidry eas credited with being the first to master the slider in 1978. That year he had a rediculous record (25-3 or somethning like hat). In 1981 he started to have arm problems. Teg Williams once told someon he got out just in time--before everyone started throwing the slider.

 

Sparky Lyle taught him the pitch tho?

[moonslav59]

It's not up to the players union for a 6 man rotation. Also, the GM's wouldn't buy this. Starting pitchers have bloated salaries and now you are asking to increase the spots by 20%. This will drive up salaries, which the players would love, but GM's wouldn't and the cap wouldn't accommodate it. This is a moot point

 

I was talking about a 26 or 27 man rotation, which could facilitate a 6 man rotation.

 

The union does not have to approve of a 26/27 man roster, but the owners could dangle the idea in an attempt to take something away fro the players.

 

Adding 2 roster spots offers a lot of job security to older players.

[moonslav59]

How many starts would you think your #1 would miss in a season?

 

162/5 = 33 (ace & #2) & 32 (3/4/5 starters)

162/6 =27

 

So about 6, but if you never give your ace an extra day (6 days off), then it might be just missing 5 or so.

 

You could conceivably try and get a few more pitches out of your better starters every start, but that might defeat the purpose to some extent.

[moonslav59]

That's not "irony". That's proof that he threw too many innings.

 

Yes, and poor managing.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

That's not "irony". That's proof that he threw too many innings.

 

I sometimes wonder if this had something to do with Farrell getting fired. This is the second year in a row where the Red Sox's SPs were awful in the playoffs. Maybe they need fewer innings during the regular season to keep them strong in October? I don't know. Sale threw 214.1 innings and we are now at the point where we are saying that is too much. Amazing how baseball has changed from the days of Nolan Ryan, Steve Carlton, Gaylord Perry, etc.

[sk7326]

I sometimes wonder if this had something to do with Farrell getting fired. This is the second year in a row where the Red Sox's SPs were awful in the playoffs. Maybe they need fewer innings during the regular season to keep them strong in October? I don't know. Sale threw 214.1 innings and we are now at the point where we are saying that is too much. Amazing how baseball has changed from the days of Nolan Ryan, Steve Carlton, Gaylord Perry, etc.

 

So was Cory Kluber, and Jose Quintana, and Jon Lester ... I am not sure there is much to conclude here.

[Bellhorn04]

So was Cory Kluber, and Jose Quintana, and Jon Lester ... I am not sure there is much to conclude here.

 

Although, given Sale's second half splits, I wouldn't be surprised to see his innings cut back next year - maybe 195 as a target or something like that?

[Kimmi]

Yes, and poor managing.

 

FTR, Farrell did try to give Sale some extra rest midseason, and he got a LOT of criticism for it.

[sk7326]

Yes, and poor managing.

 

Sale's fade was genuinely strange though

 

1. He kept sprinkling in great performances

2. His strikeout rate never dropped, and his walk rate never went up ... and he had a terrific August

3. The line drive rate until September stayed pretty still. It seemed the problems were all about getting his slider to bite ... the velocity was still easy and high

 

The White Sox managed him carefully and had a similar performance curve ... it might just be something he has to iron out.

[sk7326]

Although, given Sale's second half splits, I wouldn't be surprised to see his innings cut back next year - maybe 195 as a target or something like that?

 

Maybe - but he had a great August, and the things you'd expect to reflect a fade (more frequent line drives, fewer strikeouts) never really came to pass. I think they will be a bit more careful - but I don't think they weren't careful ... they knew the merchandise when they bought it.

[moonslav59]

FTR, Farrell did try to give Sale some extra rest midseason, and he got a LOT of criticism for it.

 

Not from me, and he barely got any extra rest. He started 32 games, instead of 33.

 

He did get an extra day every time we got a day off, which was better than skipping another starter's start, but I do not think it was enough.

 

I do hope we plan better next year. Even if we do, I'm not sure it will work, but it's worth a try.

 

[moonslav59]

2. His strikeout rate never dropped, and his walk rate never went up ... and he had a terrific August ...

 

Terrific?

 

August 2017

 

4.38 ERA worst of the season

 

1.054 WHIP is pretty "terrific", but it was his second worst month.

 

OPS against:

.875 Sept

.640 May

.620 Aug

.574June

.500 July

.433 April

 

His K/BB ratio was 3rd worst in August and worst in September, so I'm not sure how his K rate and BB did not get worse at the end of the season. (1st half 8.09 & second half 6.19)

 

Career 1st half/2nd half

ERA: 2.74/ 3.28

WHIP: 0.97/ 1.14

OPS: .583/ .679

tOPS+ 86/ 116

K/BB: 5.34/4.90

 

tOPS+ by month (career)

87

72

90

101

105

138

[Larry Cook]

The six man rotation works if you go with 13 pitchers and have at least two holt’s on the bench.

 

I would instead propose that we go to a 13 pitcher squad, but every other cycle the Long reliever gets a start starting June 1st, and we stay on rotation even when we have a day off.

 

It is so important to get these pitchers locked in and focused on throwing strikes and secondary pitches through the first couple of months of the season.

 

I think we do not give our starters enough innings in spring training and they come out rusty to start each season.