2017/18 Hot Stove Thread

[FredLynn]

Really? I'm not exactly dazzled by Benintendi in left field, let alone center. I know he played center in college, but that was then. Plenty of guys don't play their college position in the majors, which was why Tim Wakefield nevet played first and Jon Olerud never pitched. .

 

Really. Benny had a positive dWAR last year. He is adequate as an OF and likely a superior offensive force. If JBJ cannot hit the baseball I do not want him on the team.

[moonslav59]

To think Stanton could have been had for $25M AAV. Not sign Moreland and trade JBJ, savings of $12M.

 

RF Betts

CF Beni

1B Hanley

LF Stanton

DH Martinez

SS Xander

3B Devers

2B Nunez

C Vazquez.

 

One can only dream.....it's just money.

 

The $13M differential would have put us over the max penalty limit. We could take away $4M for Holt and Leon, but that last $6M is hard to find (no Nunez?).

[cp176]

Usually I don't either, but when a Starting Caliber Major Leaguer is in his prime cant catch up to 94 MPH fastballs 3 times, that's concerning.

 

I think that it is fairly obvious that management has worried about JBJ's ups and downs for some time now. Once again, I'm with you on this one as much as I like JBJ. It would be a lot different if his name was Ortiz and he was having a terrible spring. A major league player that has established the fact that they can hit consistently in the major leagues is a whole different story than one who hasn't. You obviously cut that guy some slack. JBJ is on the flip side of the coin when it comes to this. I like him and I want him to hit and stay but I would be very surprised if the boys who run the show weren't a little concerned with his ineptness at the plate this spring.

[moonslav59]

Really. Benny had a positive dWAR last year. He is adequate as an OF and likely a superior offensive force. If JBJ cannot hit the baseball I do not want him on the team.

 

+0.3 career OF UZR/150, but -0.6 in CF compared to JBJ's +9.7 (+8.5 in CF) is more than a significant disparity.

[moonslav59]

I think that it is fairly obvious that management has worried about JBJ's ups and downs for some time now. Once again, I'm with you on this one as much as I like JBJ. It would be a lot different if his name was Ortiz and he was having a terrible spring. A major league player that has established the fact that they can hit consistently in the major leagues is a whole different story than one who hasn't. You obviously cut that guy some slack. JBJ is on the flip side of the coin when it comes to this. I like him and I want him to hit and stay but I would be very surprised if the boys who run the show weren't a little concerned with his ineptness at the plate this spring.

 

I don't doubt they worry about JBJ's slumps. My point was that his ST'ing slump probably did not significantly increase that "worry."

[FredLynn]

+0.3 career OF UZR/150, but -0.6 in CF compared to JBJ's +9.7 (+8.5 in CF) is more than a significant disparity.

 

And how many starts has he had in CF? Just asking...I haven't checked. I doubt that those CF stats are based on anything like a significant sample size. I have no doubt that given more experience out there Benny would do just fine in CF. Its not my first choice; my first choice is to give JBJ a chance to show he can hit. However, at some point you have to throw in the towel with him no matter how good he is defensively. I would give him about 3 months to produce respectable stats at the plate.

[cp176]

Certainly not defensively, but the down grade in LF defense would be significant from Beni to JD. (1B would improve from HRam to Moreland/Travis)

 

 

It would kind of depend on who the Sox traded JBJ for I think as to whether there would be a major outfield downgrade. I don't think that JD would ever wind up being any kind of a fixture in our outfield.

I do think though that this discussion isn't heading toward a real good place. I haven't heard many people come right out and say that JBJ should be traded. He'll be in that outfield and if he gets just a little more consistent then we all be happy that he is out there. His leash is going to be a real long one but I still think that this year will loom large for his career moving forward and don't you have to think that management could see it that way as well?

[moonslav59]

And how many starts has he had in CF? Just asking...I haven't checked. I doubt that those CF stats are based on anything like a significant sample size. I have no doubt that given more experience out there Benny would do just fine in CF. Its not my first choice; my first choice is to give JBJ a chance to show he can hit. However, at some point you have to throw in the towel with him no matter how good he is defensively. I would give him about 3 months to produce respectable stats at the plate.

 

It's a puny sample size, but his total OF one is not that small.

 

If you are arguing beni might be close to as good as JBJ on defense in CF after 3 months, I think it's you that has to provide some evidence.

 

I seriously doubt he can.

[cp176]

I don't doubt they worry about JBJ's slumps. My point was that his ST'ing slump probably did not significantly increase that "worry."

 

 

I agree with you. The only reason I'm posting about this one is that some have suggested that what JBJ has done or not done I should say hasn't and shouldn't be noticed by the guys in charge. As you said, they have worried about him now for a while and his spring has done nothing to increase their confidence level in him.

[moonslav59]

It would kind of depend on who the Sox traded JBJ for I think as to whether there would be a major outfield downgrade. I don't think that JD would ever wind up being any kind of a fixture in our outfield.

I do think though that this discussion isn't heading toward a real good place. I haven't heard many people come right out and say that JBJ should be traded. He'll be in that outfield and if he gets just a little more consistent then we all be happy that he is out there. His leash is going to be a real long one but I still think that this year will loom large for his career moving forward and don't you have to think that management could see it that way as well?

 

I have written about trading JBJ. For example, I mentioned trading him for a healthy Salazar (I know- oxymoron).

 

The plus we gain in the rotation could off set the loss in CF defense. If Moreland can hit better than JBJ, then we might gain or stay even on offense and make JD happy by playing the OF.

 

As soon as JD hurts his foot running into the wall, all hell would break out on this forum.

[cp176]

It's a puny sample size, but his total OF one is not that small.

 

If you are arguing beni might be close to as good as JBJ on defense in CF after 3 months, I think it's you that has to provide some evidence.

 

I seriously doubt he can.

 

 

Do you think that Beni would appear adequate out there if his batting average was say 40 to 50 points higher than JBJ's and his overall production at the plate was significantly better as well?

[cp176]

I have written about trading JBJ. For example, I mentioned trading him for a healthy Salazar (I know- oxymoron).

 

The plus we gain in the rotation could off set the loss in CF defense. If Moreland can hit better than JBJ, then we might gain or stay even on offense and make JD happy by playing the OF.

 

As soon as JD hurts his foot running into the wall, all hell would break out on this forum.

 

 

Personally I am pulling hard for JBJ but he has to hit better than he has. Big year for him.

[Nick]

The $13M differential would have put us over the max penalty limit. We could take away $4M for Holt and Leon, but that last $6M is hard to find (no Nunez?).

 

We'd be all in.....like I said , fantasy baseball. But definitely had the AAV payroll appeal.

[oldtimer]

I think that it is fairly obvious that management has worried about JBJ's ups and downs for some time now. Once again, I'm with you on this one as much as I like JBJ. It would be a lot different if his name was Ortiz and he was having a terrible spring. A major league player that has established the fact that they can hit consistently in the major leagues is a whole different story than one who hasn't. You obviously cut that guy some slack. JBJ is on the flip side of the coin when it comes to this. I like him and I want him to hit and stay but I would be very surprised if the boys who run the show weren't a little concerned with his ineptness at the plate this spring.

 

Well said, and I think that is why JBJ was often talked about in trade rumors this off season. He is a top notch defender but has been a streaky hitter and spring training is not giving people a warm feeling that he will have a breakout year. His time to perform is now, so if he doesn't, patience will run very thin.

[cp176]

Well said, and I think that is why JBJ was often talked about in trade rumors this off season. He is a top notch defender but has been a streaky hitter and spring training is not giving people a warm feeling that he will have a breakout year. His time to perform is now, so if he doesn't, patience will run very thin.

 

I think like you do on this one and I actually am very fond of the guy. We have all been waiting for things to come together for him and I think for his sake as well as the team's it needs to be this year.

[mvp 78]

WAR was made for a guy like JBJ.

 

Yup. He's was the 18th best CFer last year. https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=cf&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=200&type=8&season=2017&month=0&season1=2017&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

 

Basically Delino Deshields Jr or Carlos Gomez.

[mvp 78]

Really. Benny had a positive dWAR last year. He is adequate as an OF and likely a superior offensive force. If JBJ cannot hit the baseball I do not want him on the team.

 

Beni would be fine in CF if they wanted to add another big bopper to the lineup in LF or DH.

[mvp 78]

It's a puny sample size, but his total OF one is not that small.

 

If you are arguing beni might be close to as good as JBJ on defense in CF after 3 months, I think it's you that has to provide some evidence.

 

I seriously doubt he can.

 

He'd be better offensively, but worse defensively. The upside is that you have longer control over him and aren't going to have crazy swings in production like JBJ.

[Bellhorn04]

Yup. He's was the 18th best CFer last year. https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=cf&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=200&type=8&season=2017&month=0&season1=2017&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

 

Basically Delino Deshields Jr or Carlos Gomez.

 

Guess I should have said bWAR LOL

[mvp 78]

Guess I should have said bWAR LOL

 

bWAR?!?! Get out of here with that nonsense!

[moonslav59]

Do you think that Beni would appear adequate out there if his batting average was say 40 to 50 points higher than JBJ's and his overall production at the plate was significantly better as well?

 

We'd not really be adding beni to the line-up, so the 40-50 point increase in CF BA is not the true comp.

 

The real offensive comp would be to whom JBJ was replaced by. My guess is Moreland would play 1B, HRam DH and JD LF. That means whoever was going to be on the bench out of HRam/Moreland would be the guy getting more playing time in place of JBJ. It could also be Nunez once Pedey returns.

 

The comp:

 

Defense:

JBJ>>Beni CF

Beni > JD LF

Moreland > HRam at 1B

 

Offense:

HRam/Moreland/Nunez >=

 

Then, what plus does who we get for JBJ bring to another area of the team?

[moonslav59]

He'd be better offensively, but worse defensively. The upside is that you have longer control over him and aren't going to have crazy swings in production like JBJ.

 

I don't mind crazy swinga as much as most, as long as he ends up over .830, like he did for 3 years in a row. (Actually, I wouldn't mind .750 all that much and think he's still a net plus at .650.)

 

Since we'd essentially be replacing JBJ with Moreland/Nunez, we don't gain any "team control: years by trading JBJ.

[mvp 78]

Harper LF, Beni CF, Mookie RF

[mvp 78]

I don't mind crazy swinga as much as most, as long as he ends up over .830, like he did for 3 years in a row. (Actually, I wouldn't mind .750 all that much and think he's still a net plus at .650.)

 

Since we'd essentially be replacing JBJ with Moreland/Nunez, we don't gain any "team control: years by trading JBJ.

 

It was TWO years in a row and one of the seasons was even a half year.

[moonslav59]

It was TWO years in a row and one of the seasons was even a half year.

 

Yes, my bad.

[mvp 78]

Yes, my bad.

 

There is such a huge difference between 15-16 JBJ and 17 JBJ that it's hard to really know what we are getting this year. If 17 was an aberration and he can OPS .800+, no one will complain. Last year was a little disconcerting.

[Bellhorn04]

Harper LF, Beni CF, Mookie RF

 

Travis LF, Beni CF, Mookie RF

[S5Dewey]

There is such a huge difference between 15-16 JBJ and 17 JBJ that it's hard to really know what we are getting this year. If 17 was an aberration and he can OPS .800+, no one will complain. Last year was a little disconcerting.

 

Oh, someone will complain. It'll be something like his arm is too erratic. He doesnt throw enough strikes to the plate from 375' away.

Once people get down on someone they'll find some reason to disparage him. Remember when Mike Napoli was breezing along with an OPS > .800 and some posters wanted to run him out of town on a rail because he struck out too much?

[mvp 78]

Travis LF, Beni CF, Mookie RF

 

Barfield LF, Tavares CF, Castillo RF

[mvp 78]

Oh, someone will complain. It'll be something like his arm is too erratic. He doesnt throw enough strikes to the plate from 375' away.

Once people get down on someone they'll find some reason to disparage him. Remember when Mike Napoli was breezing along with an OPS > .800 and some posters wanted to run him out of town on a rail because he struck out too much?

 

Well, there's always someone that complains. I just think the majority of posters will not complain as much if his bat improves from last year. His defense is fine. I'm not sure many people really hound him on that. Complaining about a bad throw in a game thread is totally fine by me.