2017/18 Hot Stove Thread

[jacksonianmarch]

I know that you relied on me as a Dr to tell you if the surgery was necessary. It was at the time. Now, we realize that you shouldn't have had the surgery and it's your fault for listening to me.

 

Lol, you clearly don't have the understanding to entertain those kinds of conversations.

[moonslav59]

It’s called common sense. The sox signed Moreland anticipating a larger market for Morrison and Duda. If the sox waited, Moreland could have been had for $4 mil on a 1 yr deal

 

Duda was projected to make less than Moreland from day one and certainly at the time Moreland was signed.

[moonslav59]

It was a smart deal when it was signed! It is a bad deal now and they shouldn't have done it!

 

Mental. Gymnastics.

 

It was a dumb deal at the time. The only mental gymnastics going on, is posters trying to justify the stupidity and using the "hindsight" argument in acrobatic fashion.

 

Saying that signing Moreland gave us leverage in the JD negotiations is pulling a Nadia Comanichi. Once we signed the weak hitting (for a 1Bman) Moreland to fill one of the two power slots we had open, we HAD TO SIGN JD.

 

We could have had Duda and JD in foresight. I get the hindisght argument on Moose and Morrison to some extent, but the writing was on the wall, even at the time of the Moreland signing that this winter was going to be different.

 

Was Moreland going to get $13M/2 from someone else the day we signed him? There was no hurry. There was no added leverage. It was dumb then; it's dumber now.

[jacksonianmarch]

Duda was projected to make less than Moreland from day one and certainly at the time Moreland was signed.

 

That’s not true. Moreland wasn’t a top 50 FA. Duda was. I doubt anyone would have expected Moreland to get more years and a higher AAV than Morrison and Duda

[Bellhorn04]

That’s not true. Moreland wasn’t a top 50 FA. Duda was. I doubt anyone would have expected Moreland to get more years and a higher AAV than Morrison and Duda

 

MLBTR predicted Duda would get 1 year, $6 million.

[moonslav59]

MLBTR predicted Duda would get 1 year, $6 million.

 

Yes, and that's less than what Moreland gets per year, which was my point.

 

It's not "hindsight" with Duda.

 

I understand an argument can be made on Morrison & Moose, but not with Duda.

[moonslav59]

That’s not true. Moreland wasn’t a top 50 FA. Duda was. I doubt anyone would have expected Moreland to get more years and a higher AAV than Morrison and Duda

 

Moreland got $5.5M last year and did better than expected.

 

Although MLBTR did not have him ranked on their list, so many posters on this site say he was worth the signing. That should prove he was worth it, right?

 

(Sarcasm alert)

[Bellhorn04]

Moreland got $5.5M last year and did better than expected.

 

Although MLBTR did not have him ranked on their list, so many posters on this site say he was worth the signing. That should prove he was worth it, right?

 

(Sarcasm alert)

 

I think an argument can be made based on WAR that Moreland's contract was not a large overpay at the time.

 

fWAR

 

2015 2.2

2016 0.4

2017 0.9

 

bWAR

 

2015 2.3

2016 0.7

2017 1.9

 

Even if you only project him as a 1 WAR player, that was supposedly worth 7-8 million on the free agent market at the time he was signed.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think an argument can be made based on WAR that Moreland's contract was not a large overpay at the time.

 

fWAR

 

2015 2.2

2016 0.4

2017 0.9

 

bWAR

 

2015 2.3

2016 0.7

2017 1.9

 

Even if you only project him as a 1 WAR player, that was supposedly worth 7-8 million on the free agent market at the time he was signed.

 

The WAR to dollar amount needs to be altered. Morrison was paid nearly $1.25 mil per WAR point.

[Bellhorn04]

The WAR to dollar amount needs to be altered. Morrison was paid nearly $1.25 mil per WAR point.

 

It probably will be altered now because of some of the bargain signings, yes.

[moonslav59]

I think an argument can be made based on WAR that Moreland's contract was not a large overpay at the time.

 

fWAR

 

2015 2.2

2016 0.4

2017 0.9

 

bWAR

 

2015 2.3

2016 0.7

2017 1.9

 

Even if you only project him as a 1 WAR player, that was supposedly worth 7-8 million on the free agent market at the time he was signed.

 

It's not the "overpay" I complained about. It was the fact that our team need to add power, 1st base is THE power position, and yet we chose to stay the same by signing Moreland. There were so many other 1Bmen available that the chances we'd miss out on one by waiting was just a plain silly argument.

 

Duda (or even Moreland) could have been a fall back AFTER we signed JD.

 

The other thing that bugs me is that everyone bashes Ben in "hindsight", when actually after the HRam signing, experts said it was a steal for the Sox, but nobody is allowed to hindsight criticize DD. (and with me, it's not hindsight: I wanted Duda, Morrison of Moose from day one.)

[Nick]

Moon, maybe DD thinks Moreland is better than what you give him credit for.

 

I also think I'm pretty smart.

 

Our team is on the field boys.

 

Isn't it time for Moon to start Part II?

[Bellhorn04]

The other thing that bugs me is that everyone bashes Ben in "hindsight", when actually after the HRam signing, experts said it was a steal for the Sox, but nobody is allowed to hindsight criticize DD. (and with me, it's not hindsight: I wanted Duda, Morrison of Moose from day one.)

 

I disagree that DD doesn't get any hindsight criticism. Every GM gets it. DD has gotten it in particular for the Shaw-Thornburg trade.

[cp176]

I disagree that DD doesn't get any hindsight criticism. Every GM gets it. DD has gotten it in particular for the Shaw-Thornburg trade.

 

He sure as hell gets it here doesn't he. I'm curious to hear how our analytical folk take to the idea that yes DD understands its relative importance, has embraced it, and is making sure that his coaching has all of the tools it needs to get the job done. Who do you

suppose is behind that - Ben maybe or Larry - sure and hell couldn't be that old school numbnut Dombrowski lol .

Oh by the way Bell, does hindsight also say that he should have foreseen the injury to Thornburg before pulling the trigger. ********

[Kimmi]

give me a f***ing break.

 

Unlike you, I take best information possible to form my opinion.

 

When the manager says Hanley is the starter and therefroe Moreland is not, I take his word for it.

 

Any dumb asses really think another team is looking to take on Hanley's salary? How much of salary and do we also get a player in return or do we give up a player?

 

Lets f***ing trade for Machado while we're at it.

 

Once again Nick, what are you even talking about?

[Kimmi]

It's not the "overpay" I complained about. It was the fact that our team need to add power, 1st base is THE power position, and yet we chose to stay the same by signing Moreland. There were so many other 1Bmen available that the chances we'd miss out on one by waiting was just a plain silly argument.

 

Duda (or even Moreland) could have been a fall back AFTER we signed JD.

 

The other thing that bugs me is that everyone bashes Ben in "hindsight", when actually after the HRam signing, experts said it was a steal for the Sox, but nobody is allowed to hindsight criticize DD. (and with me, it's not hindsight: I wanted Duda, Morrison of Moose from day one.)

 

You can hindsight criticize Dombrowski all you want to. I just think that you're way off base when you say that the Moreland signing was a terrible signing.

 

I can understand you preferring that we signed someone else. I cannot understand this being a terrible signing, no matter how many times you say it.

[Kimmi]

He sure as hell gets it here doesn't he. I'm curious to hear how our analytical folk take to the idea that yes DD understands its relative importance, has embraced it, and is making sure that his coaching has all of the tools it needs to get the job done. Who do you

suppose is behind that - Ben maybe or Larry - sure and hell couldn't be that old school numbnut Dombrowski lol .

Oh by the way Bell, does hindsight also say that he should have foreseen the injury to Thornburg before pulling the trigger. ********

 

I actually think Cora has been a big influence in the recent changes that the team has made regarding analytics. Yes, Dombrowski hired Cora, for which I gave him kudos. However, he also turned right around and hired LaRussa, which says to me that while he's willing to give the new school a look, he's not fully on board with it.

 

I cannot imagine that he is spearheading the move to greater use of analytics. He's willing to go along with the suggestions, etc., but he's not initiating these moves.

[harmony]

Once again Nick, what are you even talking about?

Substance, if any, gets lost in the pervasive profanity.

[Bellhorn04]

Once again Nick, what are you even talking about?

 

I think he's just really wired for the season to start.

[Bellhorn04]

Substance, if any, gets lost in the pervasive profanity.

 

That was eloquently phrased.

[Spudboy]

That was eloquently phrased.

 

For ********.

[moonslav59]

Moon, maybe DD thinks Moreland is better than what you give him credit for.

 

I also think I'm pretty smart.

 

Our team is on the field boys.

 

Isn't it time for Moon to start Part II?

 

We all know what Moreland is. He's been about the same every year.

[moonslav59]

You can hindsight criticize Dombrowski all you want to. I just think that you're way off base when you say that the Moreland signing was a terrible signing.

 

I can understand you preferring that we signed someone else. I cannot understand this being a terrible signing, no matter how many times you say it.

 

Again, it's not hindsight for me. I hated the signing before it even happened.

[cp176]

For ********.

 

alas one of my favorite words!

[cp176]

I actually think Cora has been a big influence in the recent changes that the team has made regarding analytics. Yes, Dombrowski hired Cora, for which I gave him kudos. However, he also turned right around and hired LaRussa, which says to me that while he's willing to give the new school a look, he's not fully on board with it.

 

I cannot imagine that he is spearheading the move to greater use of analytics. He's willing to go along with the suggestions, etc., but he's not initiating these moves.

 

That is your opinion which I respect. But it is an opinion no matter how sure you might be and regardless of a prior track record that you think a hat can be hung on. It is my opinion that the decision to ramp things up came from ownership - GM - followed by the coach. I don't think that Cora told them who to bring in. That is my opinion which I respect as much as I respect yours. i can point to nothing that makes me feel this way other than I believe in a chain of command that normally starts with the bosses. If he is listening and taking the suggestions of others and seeing that the job gets done - I call that both spearheading and initiating. i don't get to choose who does what based on something that I think I know or on what I think is any type of prior knowledge.

[Natick to NC]

Again, it's not hindsight for me. I hated the signing before it even happened.

 

The Mitch sign was horrendous to think about who was on the board and what could have been done with,that money just pisses me off ...it's a weird thing to see Dave so damn patient with JD and panic sign Mitch ???? Wth was that ? But it's over all I can hope for is some other shoe to drop at mid point ...before Mitch goes on his DL vacation .Why the heck not LOMO !!!!! Whyyyyyyy ? So stupid .

Edited March 17, 2018 by Natick to NC

[moonslav59]

Moose>LoMo and cheaper!

[cp176]

The Mitch sign was horrendous to think about who was on the board and what could have been done with,that money just pisses me off ...it's a weird thing to see Dave so damn patient with JD and panic sign Mitch ???? Wth was that ? But it's over all I can hope for is some other shoe to drop at mid point ...before Mitch goes on his DL vacation .Why the heck not LOMO !!!!! Whyyyyyyy ? So stupid .

 

Seems to me that all moves made can be labelled panic moves if people don't like them. I don't mind the signing at all thus no panic to me. Actually though I don't label any moves as panic moves. I would sound like I know more than DD. I don't.

[oldtimer]

Again, it's not hindsight for me. I hated the signing before it even happened.

 

Honestly, I think you are harping on this but then you do have 14,430 postings and counting. Move on to a new subject and give us a break.

[Kimmi]

Substance, if any, gets lost in the pervasive profanity.

 

I think he's just really wired for the season to start.

 

I like Nick. He reminds me a little of SeaBeachFred. Very passionate about our team.

 

But sometimes, I honestly don't know what point he's trying to make.