2017/18 Hot Stove Thread

[moonslav59]

Every city in the country envies Boston.

[Bellhorn04]

Redsox ,Patriots ,Celtics are all trending way down .Boston sports after today after the debacle and humiliating loss first in Super Bowl and now Pauls jersey retirement and Redsox refusing to right last years wrong and pussy foot around with another power hitter ...Boston has zero buzz no excitement just a bunch of teams and management kicking the can down the road ...done spending money and time caring when they don't now .Ainge and Dombo asleep at the wheel now .Redsox are like watching paint dry zero personality no leadership just another meh team ...they are well behind Houston well behind LA well behind the Cubs well behind LA Dodgers well behind Angels be lucky to get a WC this year ....terrible decisions the last two years .

 

Cheer up, man. Until 2001 the Patriots had never won it all and the Red Sox hadn't won since 1918. Now they have a combined 8 championships since 2001.

 

The Celtics and the Bruins have each won championships since then as well.

[notin]

No GM goes 7-8 years straight drafting 20 or lower.

 

Maybe even 10 or lower.

 

Not true under the old CBA where free agents cost you first round picks....

[Kimmi]

$21 mil per year for 6 years. A full year less and $10 mil per year less than Price got. Wow, the FA market has fallen a bit

 

And this is why JD needs to come to grips with reality.

 

I can see Dombrowski going up to $150 mil if he needs to, but as of now, there is no need to do so.

 

One of the writers suggested that Dombrowski increase his overall offer by $5-$10 mil. It really wouldn't be much of a difference for the Sox, but it might be enough of a moral victory to JD to get him to end the standoff. And he might come to Boston with less 'bitterness'.

 

I'm not sure whether I agree with this or not. On one hand, it would be nice to get him signed and have him with the team for spring training. OTOH, why should Dombrowski bid against himself? Especially if there isn't another offer that's fairly close.

[Kimmi]

Theo's strength was never ponying up big money for guys like Darvish. Any GM can do that if they have a budget.

 

Theo's strength was finding guys like Jake Arrieta and Kyle Hendricks and getting them for essentially nothing.

 

 

 

Can Dombrowski do that?

 

Bingo. Dombrowski is no Theo, that's for sure.

[Kimmi]

Theo has always had issues with the back end of the build. He knows how to rebuild. He knows how to bring the rebuild into the now. The sustaining the success part is where he overspends to keep a good thing going. The Heyward signing was puzzling from the start. The Lester signing was necessary to win the title they did. This signing is a great one. I think Darvish stays for 2 yrs and dominates

 

Once again, stop. Just stop.

[Kimmi]

Maybe the 'back end of the build' is an 'issue' for every GM, even the best, because that's just the way it works.

 

Or maybe Theo had Lucchino forcing his hand in the matter.

[jacksonianmarch]

The Yanks won all those year, in large part, to outspending other teams by huge margins during a time when the system was rigged to help rich teams score great draft picks with later picks due to "signability" issues. The international market was also totally unregulated.

 

Yes, they had some great in system infusion along the way for sure and couldn't have won without it, but they continuously filled holes with super costly free agents.

 

It's only recently that the Yanks started reducing their budget and having fire sales to rebuild their farm.

 

 

At the beginning, there was Bernie, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera and Jeter. All but Jeter was available to every club at least once. The deal to send Kelly for O'Neill was great. Tino was brought in for what amounted to nothing. Boggs was a castaway. Cone was brought in via trade to pair with an aging Key and upstart Pettitte to form a solid top 3 of a rotation. But it started with the core 5. All 5 are either close to HOFers or HOFers in their own right. Along the way, we made deals via FA or trade to acquire Clemens, Brosius, El Duque, Mike Stanton, David Wells, David Justice et al. It wasn't until 2002 that we became the evil empire. From 95-01, a 7 year stretch, we made the playoffs in every year, won 4 titles, went to the WS 5 times and effectively had a team centered on a core from within surrounded by players acquired via our deep farm system. Stick Michael and Bob Watson deserve a lot of that credit and Cashman shepherded us through the last 5 years of that. After 2001, we probably should have allowed for some attrition for a year or two and then rebuilt, but George wasn't going to use his final few years to rebuild. Without going nuts on Mussina and Giambi, we probably would have made the POs in 02 then faded out in 03 and 04 as the sox rose prior to a rebuild centered on future HOFer Robby Cano. Either way, the Yankees would probably have stayed above .500 without the money but they would have had to be mediocre for a couple years that they went to the WS and the ALCS respectively.

[sk7326]

Theo has always had issues with the back end of the build. He knows how to rebuild. He knows how to bring the rebuild into the now. The sustaining the success part is where he overspends to keep a good thing going. The Heyward signing was puzzling from the start. The Lester signing was necessary to win the title they did. This signing is a great one. I think Darvish stays for 2 yrs and dominates

 

The Heyward signing made a ton of sense - he was amazingly young for a FA, they got him cheap relative to expectations ... and was capable of being one of the best OFs in the league if he was just okay offensively (he had been a reliably high on-base guy prior to his StL experience). The signing has not worked since he forgot how to hit.

 

But you are right on the basics - you use the farm to craft the bulk of the team and then FAs are for specific openings. Like Lester. Darvish is a bad contract for the years, but a really good price. It seemed a lot of his problems were pitch selection related - the K-rate was still excellent. It seems like there is still some significant upside there at least short run. But some of the things the Cubs needed to keep their window open have not worked out. (Russell being more average than excellent, Schwarber not even that).

[Natick to NC]

Cheer up, man. Until 2001 the Patriots had never won it all and the Red Sox hadn't won since 1918. Now they have a combined 8 championships since 2001.

 

The Celtics and the Bruins have each won championships since then as well.

I'm just depressed today about Celtics ...I know this is a Redsox board but man it feels as though the high hopes I had are gone with them the Patriots and dwindling with my Redsox by the day ...I'm talking winning rings I don't care about fielding meh teams .

[harmony]

Every city in the country envies Boston.

If the criteria are recent championships by professional men's teams in football, baseball, basketball and hockey.

[Jasonbay44]

I'm just depressed today about Celtics ...I know this is a Redsox board but man it feels as though the high hopes I had are gone with them the Patriots and dwindling with my Redsox by the day ...I'm talking winning rings I don't care about fielding meh teams .

 

I'm not a Celtics fan, but it was a regular season game and they were playing one of the all time great NBA players, blowouts happen. Cavs got blown out by Orlando last week and Warriors got destroyed by Utah. Celtics will be fine. I don't think they're a realistic championship contender right now with Lebron still playing at an absurdly high level, and with Golden State being an all time great team, but the future is very bright for them. Tatum is 19 and Brown is only 21.. s*** I mean Kyrie is only 25.

[cp176]

I'm not a Celtics fan, but it was a regular season game and they were playing one of the all time great NBA players, blowouts happen. Cavs got blown out by Orlando last week and Warriors got destroyed by Utah. Celtics will be fine. I don't think they're a realistic championship contender right now with Lebron still playing at an absurdly high level, and with Golden State being an all time great team, but the future is very bright for them. Tatum is 19 and Brown is only 21.. s*** I mean Kyrie is only 25.

 

fair post

[cp176]

I'm just depressed today about Celtics ...I know this is a Redsox board but man it feels as though the high hopes I had are gone with them the Patriots and dwindling with my Redsox by the day ...I'm talking winning rings I don't care about fielding meh teams .

 

 

No one is going to feel sorry for us though my friend. Regardless of how things look right now, we have the greatest sports franchises overall in the country right here in New England.. It's a very lucky athlete who gets to play here and an even luckier one who gets to retire as a member of one of our great teams. Things will all workout.

[oldtimer]

Redsox ,Patriots ,Celtics are all trending way down .Boston sports after today after the debacle and humiliating loss first in Super Bowl and now Pauls jersey retirement and Redsox refusing to right last years wrong and pussy foot around with another power hitter ...Boston has zero buzz no excitement just a bunch of teams and management kicking the can down the road ...done spending money and time caring when they don't now .Ainge and Dombo asleep at the wheel now .Redsox are like watching paint dry zero personality no leadership just another meh team ...they are well behind Houston well behind LA well behind the Cubs well behind LA Dodgers well behind Angels be lucky to get a WC this year ....terrible decisions the last two years .

 

I think the concept of humiliation of the Patriots is a little foolish. New Englands offense was excellent and I believe Brady would have brought the ball down for a win had the ball not gotten knocked out of his hands. Philadelphia was a very strong team and their offense had just destroyed the Vikings. New Englands defense needed to be better, but it was a competitive and close game.

 

The Celtics are playing well and have made excellent moves to get Kyrie and will only get stronger when all the stars get to play together for a time.

 

Yes, it has been very frustrating with the Red Sox, but the Sox cannot go out and bid against themselves for our best solution. We do need movement, so if JDM is not willing, we need plan B which may include a couple of players.

 

Hope they move or move on and soon.

[moonslav59]

At the beginning, there was Bernie, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera and Jeter. All but Jeter was available to every club at least once. The deal to send Kelly for O'Neill was great. Tino was brought in for what amounted to nothing. Boggs was a castaway. Cone was brought in via trade to pair with an aging Key and upstart Pettitte to form a solid top 3 of a rotation. But it started with the core 5. All 5 are either close to HOFers or HOFers in their own right. Along the way, we made deals via FA or trade to acquire Clemens, Brosius, El Duque, Mike Stanton, David Wells, David Justice et al. It wasn't until 2002 that we became the evil empire. From 95-01, a 7 year stretch, we made the playoffs in every year, won 4 titles, went to the WS 5 times and effectively had a team centered on a core from within surrounded by players acquired via our deep farm system. Stick Michael and Bob Watson deserve a lot of that credit and Cashman shepherded us through the last 5 years of that. After 2001, we probably should have allowed for some attrition for a year or two and then rebuilt, but George wasn't going to use his final few years to rebuild. Without going nuts on Mussina and Giambi, we probably would have made the POs in 02 then faded out in 03 and 04 as the sox rose prior to a rebuild centered on future HOFer Robby Cano. Either way, the Yankees would probably have stayed above .500 without the money but they would have had to be mediocre for a couple years that they went to the WS and the ALCS respectively.

 

Are you arguing the Yanks were not grossly outspending all other teams before 2002?

[moonslav59]

If the criteria are recent championships by professional men's teams in football, baseball, basketball and hockey.

 

Well, that and currently having 4 very competitive teams right now. All look to be strong for 2-3 more years, too.

[notin]

At the beginning, there was Bernie, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera and Jeter. All but Jeter was available to every club at least once. The deal to send Kelly for O'Neill was great. Tino was brought in for what amounted to nothing. Boggs was a castaway. Cone was brought in via trade to pair with an aging Key and upstart Pettitte to form a solid top 3 of a rotation. But it started with the core 5. All 5 are either close to HOFers or HOFers in their own right. Along the way, we made deals via FA or trade to acquire Clemens, Brosius, El Duque, Mike Stanton, David Wells, David Justice et al. It wasn't until 2002 that we became the evil empire. From 95-01, a 7 year stretch, we made the playoffs in every year, won 4 titles, went to the WS 5 times and effectively had a team centered on a core from within surrounded by players acquired via our deep farm system. Stick Michael and Bob Watson deserve a lot of that credit and Cashman shepherded us through the last 5 years of that. After 2001, we probably should have allowed for some attrition for a year or two and then rebuilt, but George wasn't going to use his final few years to rebuild. Without going nuts on Mussina and Giambi, we probably would have made the POs in 02 then faded out in 03 and 04 as the sox rose prior to a rebuild centered on future HOFer Robby Cano. Either way, the Yankees would probably have stayed above .500 without the money but they would have had to be mediocre for a couple years that they went to the WS and the ALCS respectively.

 

What Yankee fans refuse to acknowledge was they had to outspend just to keep the Core Four. The only other team that even had as many as four players stay on their team for the between 1996 and 2001 was the Braves. Other teams produced star players, but they couldn't afford to retain them all like NY did. And NY still went on to spend heavily to bring in other big names like Giambi, Mussina, Johnson, etc....

[notin]

Redsox ,Patriots ,Celtics are all trending way down .Boston sports after today after the debacle and humiliating loss first in Super Bowl and now Pauls jersey retirement and Redsox refusing to right last years wrong and pussy foot around with another power hitter ...Boston has zero buzz no excitement just a bunch of teams and management kicking the can down the road ...done spending money and time caring when they don't now .Ainge and Dombo asleep at the wheel now .Redsox are like watching paint dry zero personality no leadership just another meh team ...they are well behind Houston well behind LA well behind the Cubs well behind LA Dodgers well behind Angels be lucky to get a WC this year ....terrible decisions the last two years .

 

Sox are two time defending AL EAst champions.

 

Patriots have been in the last two Super Bowls and three of the last four, with 2 wins.

 

The Celtics are easily the best run team in the NBA right now.

 

Exactly what is so bad about Boston sports?

[moonslav59]

Sox are two time defending AL EAst champions.

 

Patriots have been in the last two Super Bowls and three of the last four, with 2 wins.

 

The Celtics are easily the best run team in the NBA right now.

 

Exactly what is so bad about Boston sports?

 

The Bruins are pretty good, too.

 

No city has it better right now, sportswise.

[Spudboy]

If the criteria are recent championships by professional men's teams in football, baseball, basketball and hockey.

 

********.

 

Boston is recognized for being a world class city.

 

It has some of the best education institutions in the world. It has some of the best hospitals and medical schools in the world. It has great historical and esthetic appeal.

 

The Boston areas has been known to be on the cutting edge of technologies for decades.

 

You are full of s***. Your bias has blinded you to facts.

[jacksonianmarch]

Are you arguing the Yanks were not grossly outspending all other teams before 2002?

 

The Yankees were $3 mil over the sox and dodgers in 2001, $2 mil above the dodgers in 2000, $7 mil above the Rangers in 1999, $7 mil behind the Orioles in 1998, $5 mil above the Orioles in 1997, $4 mil above the Orioles in 1996. There was no "grossly overspending" anyone. Yes, they were either 1 or 2 for the 5 years stated above, but they were in the ballpark with the top 10 for sure. It took off after 2001.

[jacksonianmarch]

What Yankee fans refuse to acknowledge was they had to outspend just to keep the Core Four. The only other team that even had as many as four players stay on their team for the between 1996 and 2001 was the Braves. Other teams produced star players, but they couldn't afford to retain them all like NY did. And NY still went on to spend heavily to bring in other big names like Giambi, Mussina, Johnson, etc....

 

Yes, they spent heavy to keep their players. But they were their players initially. The major spending didn't come down until after 2001

[moonslav59]

The Yankees were $3 mil over the sox and dodgers in 2001, $2 mil above the dodgers in 2000, $7 mil above the Rangers in 1999, $7 mil behind the Orioles in 1998, $5 mil above the Orioles in 1997, $4 mil above the Orioles in 1996. There was no "grossly overspending" anyone. Yes, they were either 1 or 2 for the 5 years stated above, but they were in the ballpark with the top 10 for sure. It took off after 2001.

 

Okay, maybe "grossly" was a poor choice of words.

 

The Yanks certainly always high spenders as the second most spending teams were rarely the same.

 

I'm also guessing the Yanks were easily the highest spending team for decades beforehand.

[moonslav59]

Yes, they spent heavy to keep their players. But they were their players initially. The major spending didn't come down until after 2001

 

I guess you weren't around for Reggie, Giambi, Gossage, Mussina, Winfield, Jimmy Key and Kevin Brown.

 

Those are just the ones I remember off the top of my head. There are many more.

[Natick to NC]

********.

 

Boston is recognized for being a world class city.

 

It has some of the best education institutions in the world. It has some of the best hospitals and medical schools in the world. It has great historical and esthetic appeal.

 

The Boston areas has been known to be on the cutting edge of technologies for decades.

 

You are full of s***. Your bias has blinded you to facts.

Don't ever forget what you wrote it's brilliant and we don't need to settle for people who don't want go play here ...Love the passion just want that from some of our players ...Well said and Thankyou for reminding me of all this .

[Natick to NC]

I think the concept of humiliation of the Patriots is a little foolish. New Englands offense was excellent and I believe Brady would have brought the ball down for a win had the ball not gotten knocked out of his hands. Philadelphia was a very strong team and their offense had just destroyed the Vikings. New Englands defense needed to be better, but it was a competitive and close game.

 

The Celtics are playing well and have made excellent moves to get Kyrie and will only get stronger when all the stars get to play together for a time.

 

Yes, it has been very frustrating with the Red Sox, but the Sox cannot go out and bid against themselves for our best solution. We do need movement, so if JDM is not willing, we need plan B which may include a couple of players.

 

Hope they move or move on and soon.

I'm just pissed off today ...You're right about all the above .Thnkyou.....Nelson Cruz should have been with Papi his final year then Edwin last year was an absolute no brainer now it's jerking around with JD ...if you find a house you're going to live in the next decade is an additional 10 k going to bust the deal ??? anti the hell Up now and let's move on .

Edited February 12, 2018 by Natick to NC

[harmony]

********.

 

Boston is recognized for being a world class city.

 

It has some of the best education institutions in the world. It has some of the best hospitals and medical schools in the world. It has great historical and esthetic appeal.

 

The Boston areas has been known to be on the cutting edge of technologies for decades.

 

You are full of s***. Your bias has blinded you to facts.

I was thinking more along the lines of soccer and women's basketball when I responded to the post "Every city in the country envies Boston."

 

Boston is a world-class city. Many folks on the West Coast enjoyed their time in Beantown before leaving for greener pastures.

[S5Dewey]

********.

 

Boston is recognized for being a world class city.

 

It has some of the best education institutions in the world. It has some of the best hospitals and medical schools in the world. It has great historical and esthetic appeal.

 

The Boston areas has been known to be on the cutting edge of technologies for decades.

 

You are full of s***. Your bias has blinded you to facts.

 

Well, yeah, but Seattle has a reputation for having great coffee and ..women's basketball? Really?.

[cp176]

********.

 

Boston is recognized for being a world class city.

 

It has some of the best education institutions in the world. It has some of the best hospitals and medical schools in the world. It has great historical and esthetic appeal.

 

The Boston areas has been known to be on the cutting edge of technologies for decades.

 

You are full of s***. Your bias has blinded you to facts.

 

I like this post - it suits me good