2017/18 Hot Stove Thread

[mvp 78]

From ESPN staff writer Scott Lauber this morning:

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/53867/are-the-red-sox-gonna-sign-j-d-martinez-or-what-heres-what-we-know

Lauber looking to get a kickback? Not sure why Sox shouldhave it in their best interests to bid against themselves.

[mvp 78]

@timbritton

 

Ortiz on Devers: “He reminds me of myself a lot.” Called him “MVP caliber.”

[cp176]

David is on a dream crusade. Devers would at second heading to third as Papi left the box.

[jacksonianmarch]

@timbritton

 

Ortiz on Devers: “He reminds me of myself a lot.” Called him “MVP caliber.”

 

interesting coming from a guy who never won an MVP.

[cp176]

interesting coming from a guy who never won an MVP.

 

And once again - your point? There have just been so many dh's who have won that award right. Now I'll just guess at this one - maybe David sees a little of himself in Devers when he steps into the batter's box.

[mvp 78]

interesting coming from a guy who never won an MVP.

 

If he played 1b insteadof DH, he would have had an MVP.

[S5Dewey]

Wow - revenue sharing guaranteeing profitability to all irrespective of what the actual product on the field looks like. That was a good read. I could go off on a wild tangent right now but I don't want Hitch to get upset with me. I'm really glad that someone in their infinite wisdom is willing to help out some of these mega rich losers though. It is the right thing to do. lol

 

Realizing that I'm a few hours behind in this discussion and hoping that this issue hasn't been beaten to death already....

 

I said back on the old BDC board that there are two ways to make money in Major League Baseball - by winning or by losing.

If a team wins it puts fannies in the seats and sells merchandise. It allows $5 hot dogs and $10 beers. It builds a fan base that will pay to see every game on their local sports network. And it will allow for ever-escalating ticket prices.

 

If a team loses it then cries about how it can't compete with other teams so those other teams subsidize the losing teams to be sure they also make money.

 

IMO if anyone actually loses money owning a MLB team they have to be an idiot. Of course we have no way of knowing because they're all privately owned and therefore have no obligation to reveal their earnings statement. I've wondered for some time if there's be any sympathy for any owners if we knew exactly what their financial situation is.

 

Convenient, huh?

[notin]

I really don't care if owners make or lose money or if the money goes to them or the players.

 

I just draw the line at tax-subsidized stadiums. I might feel different if the stadium then became public, or at least part of a park district (like Soldiers Field in Chicago.) But instead it's just fiscally irresponsible billionaires looking for help.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if you can afford a $10mill setup guy you will only use for 60 innings, you an buy your own stadium. ..

[harmony]

I had read almost nothing from Scott Boras since the Winter Meetings until FanRag columnist Jon Heyman posted this long piece on Friday:

 

https://www.fanragsports.com/inside-baseball-scott-boras-weighs-in-on-slow-market/

 

Heyman has the reputation of being a Boras mouthpiece but the column provided an interesting read.

 

Do the Red Sox covet J.D. Martinez more than J.D. Martinez wants the Red Sox?

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox/clubhouse_insider/2018/01/tom_werner_red_sox_in_active_negotiations_with_jd_martinez#.WmKYZ01HDMo.twitter

Edited January 20, 2018 by harmony

[S5Dewey]

I had read almost nothing from Scott Boras since the Winter Meetings until FanRag columnist Jon Heyman posted this long piece on Friday:

 

https://www.fanragsports.com/inside-baseball-scott-boras-weighs-in-on-slow-market/

 

Heyman has the reputation of being a Boras mouthpiece but the column provided an interesting read.

 

Do the Red Sox covet J.D. Martinez more than J.D. Martinez wants the Red Sox?

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox/clubhouse_insider/2018/01/tom_werner_red_sox_in_active_negotiations_with_jd_martinez#.WmKYZ01HDMo.twitter

 

So the players are angry, huh? Angry that the owners aren't throwing MORE millions of dollars at them in an attempt to win them over. More and more i have no sympathy for either side.

 

And BTW, will someone please take Pedro aside and break the news to him that protection in the BA doesn't exist? One would think that Pedro, as a pitcher who understood the ramifications of pitching to guys like Ortiz would understand that, but apparently he doesn't. We don't need guys like Pedro telling us anything when we have statistics! Sheesh.

[moonslav59]

I had read almost nothing from Scott Boras since the Winter Meetings until FanRag columnist Jon Heyman posted this long piece on Friday:

 

https://www.fanragsports.com/inside-baseball-scott-boras-weighs-in-on-slow-market/

 

 

Revenues eclipsed $10 billion for the first time last year after being only $7B in 2011.

 

Sounds like MLB is doing fine.

 

Revenues up 43% in just six years!

[Bellhorn04]

Do the Red Sox covet J.D. Martinez more than J.D. Martinez wants the Red Sox?

 

J.D. Martinez wants more than $125 million, that's what he wants. If the Red Sox outbid themselves and jumped their offer I'm sure his feelings toward them would get warmer and fuzzier.

[Kimmi]

Lauber looking to get a kickback? Not sure why Sox shouldhave it in their best interests to bid against themselves.

 

Yeah, I didn't get that at all either. There is still no indication that any other team has or is willing to offer that amount.

[Kimmi]

I had read almost nothing from Scott Boras since the Winter Meetings until FanRag columnist Jon Heyman posted this long piece on Friday:

 

https://www.fanragsports.com/inside-baseball-scott-boras-weighs-in-on-slow-market/

 

Heyman has the reputation of being a Boras mouthpiece but the column provided an interesting read.

 

Do the Red Sox covet J.D. Martinez more than J.D. Martinez wants the Red Sox?

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox/clubhouse_insider/2018/01/tom_werner_red_sox_in_active_negotiations_with_jd_martinez#.WmKYZ01HDMo.twitter

 

Boras sometimes has some good points to make, but IMO, he is pretty much FOS in this article.

 

Perhaps if he hadn't started off with such a ridiculous demand of $210 million, he and JD would realize that the $125 million offer is indeed a very good and more than fair offer.

[Kimmi]

J.D. Martinez wants more than $125 million, that's what he wants. If the Red Sox outbid themselves and jumped their offer I'm sure his feelings toward them would get warmer and fuzzier.

 

Of course. If the Red Sox outbid themselves to get JD, I would be upset with the FO, not with JD.

 

It's like when we signed Price, or traded for Sale or Kimbrel. I hated the contract/cost of getting the players, but was thrilled to have the players on the team. I won't begrudge JD, unless he holds out through ST and that affects his play.

[notin]

Of course. If the Red Sox outbid themselves to get JD, I would be upset with the FO, not with JD.

 

It's like when we signed Price, or traded for Sale or Kimbrel. I hated the contract/cost of getting the players, but was thrilled to have the players on the team. I won't begrudge JD, unless he holds out through ST and that affects his play.

 

At some point you do want the player to be happy with his contract. ..

[S5Dewey]

At some point you do want the player to be happy with his contract. ..

 

Basic rule of thumb: It's like any negotiations. If you're not happy with it, don't sign it. My hope is that he doesn't sign it and grouse about it afterward.

 

As Kimmie said, a big part of the issue may be that Bora$$ set JD's expectations too high. If so, that's on Bora$$ and JD needs to come to grips with it. If it were me I'd could come to grips pretty easily with $25MM/year for five years for playing baseball. Maybe a little less!

[Nick]

At some point you do want the player to be happy with his contract. ..

 

Both Kimmi and Moon simply fails to acknowledge the fact that coming on heels of two last place finishes, DD did what he felt necessary to turn the club around. He was hired to get the f*** out of last place. Maybe he overpaid, so what?

 

We are now in a different place. DD has not rushed to to sign JD at any cost. Hell, he maybe willing to go with what he's got. He has entire staring position players back with the promise of many of them might perform better in 2018.

 

if you are going to blame anyone for DD's overpay his first year, blame it on the previous management. Hell they get all the credit for last two years, they should also get the blame for putting DD in a difficult situation.

[notin]

Basic rule of thumb: It's like any negotiations. If you're not happy with it, don't sign it. My hope is that he doesn't sign it and grouse about it afterward.

 

As Kimmie said, a big part of the issue may be that Bora$$ set JD's expectations too high. If so, that's on Bora$$ and JD needs to come to grips with it. If it were me I'd could come to grips pretty easily with $25MM/year for five years for playing baseball. Maybe a little less!

 

Players sign contracts they're not happy with all the time, simply because it's the best offer.

 

If Martinez was looking for $200mill and his offers top out at $125mill, he isn't going too not sign, and it doesn't make him happy. Right now the talk ia the red sox are "bidding against themselves". Is that what's going on? Our are they closing the gap in an effort to appease Martinez as much as possible?

[notin]

Its funny how we all blame Boras as if Martinez isn't equally culpable.

 

Boras isn't doing anything Martinez doesn't approve of. And he hired Boras for exactly the things Scott is doing. ..

[Spudboy]

Yeah, I didn't get that at all either. There is still no indication that any other team has or is willing to offer that amount.

 

And if this is the case let JD sit out the year or go play in Japan for all I care.

 

Enough with the stupid contracts.

[S5Dewey]

Players sign contracts they're not happy with all the time, simply because it's the best offer.

If Martinez was looking for $200mill and his offers top out at $125mill, he isn't going too not sign, and it doesn't make him happy. Right now the talk ia the red sox are "bidding against themselves". Is that what's going on? Our are they closing the gap in an effort to appease Martinez as much as possible?

 

And such is life. I've bought cars and houses that I thought cost "too much" and I haven't gotten raises I thought I deserved because they were the best I could do. But I didn't grouse about it afterward and it never affected my work.

 

If JD is expecting $200MM and the current offer is $125MM adding another $5MM or $10MM isn't going to appease him much. He's still going to be a long way from what he thinks he deserves - probably because Bora$$ told him he deserves that much. I'[m not at all sure that Martines hired Borass to give him unrealistic expectations.

[S5Dewey]

And if this is the case let JD sit out the year or go play in Japan for all I care.

 

Enough with the stupid contracts.

 

Yes. This. Exactly.

[notin]

And such is life. I've bought cars and houses that I thought cost "too much" and I haven't gotten raises I thought I deserved because they were the best I could do. But I didn't grouse about it afterward and it never affected my work.

 

If JD is expecting $200MM and the current offer is $125MM adding another $5MM or $10MM isn't going to appease him much. He's still going to be a long way from what he thinks he deserves - probably because Bora$$ told him he deserves that much. I'[m not at all sure that Martines hired Borass to give him unrealistic expectations.

 

I am not so sure it's that simple.

 

As a man who negotiates for a living, it's a safe bet Boras doesn't actually ask for what he wants, as that would weaken his position, having nothing to give up.

 

He presumably has a figure in mind, and then asks for X% more, giving him some wiggle room to accommodate both sides.

 

The question then becomes - what is that X%? That number ultimately comes from Martinez, who is the guy with the actual right to approve or reject any offer. Just because he is taking Boras' advice (which he is paying handsomely for) doesn't change this.

[notin]

And if this is the case let JD sit out the year or go play in Japan for all I care.

 

Enough with the stupid contracts.

 

This might be the only leverage Boras and Martinez have. But it's pretty empty. I'm almost certain no high profile Boras client has ever gone to Japan. ..

[Bellhorn04]

Its funny how we all blame Boras as if Martinez isn't equally culpable.

 

Boras isn't doing anything Martinez doesn't approve of. And he hired Boras for exactly the things Scott is doing. ..

 

It's possible that Boras misread the market this time. MLBTR predicted a contract of 6/$150 for JDM and that seems quite fair.

 

Boras came out and publicly declared he was looking for 7/$210. That is a huge gap and I think we're seeing that his number was completely unrealistic.

 

Has he created a situation where his client feels embarrassed by how low the actual offers are? I don't know but I think it's possible.

[moonslav59]

Both Kimmi and Moon simply fails to acknowledge the fact that coming on heels of two last place finishes, DD did what he felt necessary to turn the club around. He was hired to get the f*** out of last place. Maybe he overpaid, so what?

 

Stop mischaracterizing my position.

 

1) I was fine with the Price signing: the overpay was necessary.

 

2) I loved the Chris Sale trade. There is absolutely no doubt on that one. After all, it was...

 

Chris "freakin" Sale!

 

3) I have never said Ben did not mistakes, and I believe he was poised to make some mega trades and signings had DD not replaced him, maybe not the same exact deals, but surely some very significant ones.

 

4) I have never been against trading prospects. I've suggested hundreds of those type of trades over the years and have even suggested some in the past few weeks. Yes, I think we traded too much of the farm away. I was against the Kimbrel & Pom deals, but recognized they were designed to help us for a pretty wide window. They have worked as planned. I have said this over and over.

 

Please stop saying I "fail to acknowledge" these facts.

 

I'm not claiming you failed to acknowledge that Ben put teams on the field that most felt would be competitive, but who ended up finishing last.

 

[moonslav59]

It's possible that Boras misread the market this time. MLBTR predicted a contract of 6/$150 for JDM and that seems quite fair.

 

Boras came out and publicly declared he was looking for 7/$210. That is a huge gap and I think we're seeing that his number was completely unrealistic.

 

Has he created a situation where his client feels embarrassed by how low the actual offers are? I don't know but I think it's possible.

 

This is not something new to Boras. He often asks for the moon and stars only to settle for way less. I don't see the JD starting point as out of line with past initial Boras starting numbers.

 

[S5Dewey]

I am not so sure it's that simple.

 

As a man who negotiates for a living, it's a safe bet Boras doesn't actually ask for what he wants, as that would weaken his position, having nothing to give up.

 

He presumably has a figure in mind, and then asks for X% more, giving him some wiggle room to accommodate both sides.

 

The question then becomes - what is that X%? That number ultimately comes from Martinez, who is the guy with the actual right to approve or reject any offer. Just because he is taking Boras' advice (which he is paying handsomely for) doesn't change this.

 

I've done some negotiating for a living myself and one thing I learned early on is to give myself a LITTLE wiggle room. Right now that "wiggle room" appears to be almost the same amount as what the thus far negotiated offer is. Did Borass misjudge the market that much or did he intentionally mislead Martinez?

 

Don't get me wrong, I do blame Martinez for this too, but when a person is paying someone for their advice the natural instinct is to believe that advice.

[harmony]

This is not something new to Boras. He often asks for the moon and stars only to settle for way less. I don't see the JD starting point as out of line with past initial Boras starting numbers.

 

I suspect Scott Boras informed J.D. Martinez that the initial asking price was not where the negotiations would likely end.

 

For all we know the current offers have already met his realistic expectations but Martinez is waiting for the bidding to leave only one team standing.

 

Or not.