2017/18 Hot Stove Thread

[notin]

I understand that line of thinking. But it seems like whenever we've signed a guy who had any sort of character/personality issues attached to him, it hasn't worked out very well. Maybe it's because of that old adage about Boston being a tough place to play. But acquiring Machado would make me very nervous.

 

Chris Sale?

 

To me, it looked like the primary reason the White Sox unloaded this guy was the problems he was creating (blasting the front office over the Adam LaRoche debacle, destroying the entire team's promotional throw back jerseys right before a game).

 

Once the White Sox dealt Sale, they knew it ruined their chances to win and it set off the fire sale. But before all that, they had a very, very good team and could have easily competed for a title...

[Kimmi]

Starting rotations are like poker hands; you can never have too many aces.

 

Was Sale a luxury? Or a creative way of replacing the void left by Papi?

 

IMO, he was a luxury that we didn't need. But I also felt like our offense would be fine without Papi. Not as good as it was in 2016, but still in the top 3.

 

I view the Yankees' acquisition of Stanton very similarly to our acquisition of Sale.

 

Of course Sale and Stanton make their respective teams better, but did the teams really need those players?

[Bellhorn04]

IMO, he was a luxury that we didn't need. But I also felt like our offense would be fine without Papi. Not as good as it was in 2016, but still in the top 3.

 

I view the Yankees' acquisition of Stanton very similarly to our acquisition of Sale.

 

Of course Sale and Stanton make their respective teams better, but did the teams really need those players?

 

I think we did need Sale, yes. And he was arguably a great value acquisition because of his low AAV contract. We did paid a high price in prospects for him, certainly.

[S5Dewey]

IMO, he [sale] was a luxury that we didn't need. But I also felt like our offense would be fine without Papi. Not as good as it was in 2016, but still in the top 3.

 

I view the Yankees' acquisition of Stanton very similarly to our acquisition of Sale.

 

Of course Sale and Stanton make their respective teams better, but did the teams really need those players?

I felt the same way about Sale when we got him. I believed that a rotation with Price, and Porcillo at the top of it was going to be good enough to get the job done. However, what happened to the Sox points out why you can't have too much pitching.

 

Now I have to look back and ask myself where we would have been without Sale, regardless of who we had to part with to get him.

[baseball jones]

so with the hosmer deal looming and still not done i think boarsass definately isnt budging.probably time for a very loud "we're out" on martinez.at three years 54mill he's a risk,at 100-150 mill he's death to us.let his agent pay him if he thinks hes worth it.this will be worse than the crawford deal at those numbers.

 

if we sign that deal we will be unable to patch holes if the need arises.he's not worth the hanley deal we hate so why discuss close to twice that as some sort of deal.in a few short years we will be in detroits mess.....then the best we can do is sign third rate bums other teams cut like jd martinez...hahaha forget this bum

[Bellhorn04]

Boar'sAss - that's the best one yet, I think.

[Jack Flap]

Desperate Dave vs. Boarsass - when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object

[Spudboy]

Not thread worthy but I read that Danial Bard hung up the cleats finally.

 

What a shame that he lost it.

 

Most people blame it on his desire to be a starter or they blame Bobby V. Today Pete Abraham said that the decision to convert him was Cherrington's.

 

Thanks Ben.

[a700hitter]

Not thread worthy but I read that Danial Bard hung up the cleats finally.

 

What a shame that he lost it.

 

Most people blame it on his desire to be a starter or they blame Bobby V. Today Pete Abraham said that the decision to convert him was Cherrington's.

 

Thanks Ben.

Thanks Ben. Bobby V knew that the kid didn’t have the makeup to be a starter. Ben and Bard wanted it. I remember reading early on in Spring Training that Bobby V asked the kid if he was sure that he wanted to pursue starting after a couple of rocky outings. To me, Bobby knew that the kid didn’t have it and he was looking to give him a way out. Bard was stubborn and didn’t know his own limitations and the wheels fell off in an ugly train wreck. Edited January 5, 2018 by a700hitter

[harmony]

Desperate Dave vs. Boarsass - when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object

Dave Dombrowski and Scott Boras are competent professionals who I suspect will retain mutual respect even if they fail to close a deal this offseason.

[Spudboy]

Thanks Ben. Bobby V knew that the kid didn’t have the makeup to be a starter. Ben and Bard wanted it. I remember reading early on in Spring Training that Bobby V asked the kid if he was sure that he wanted to pursue starting after a couple of rocky outings. To me, Bobby knew that the kid didn’t have it and he was looking to give him a way out. Bard was stubborn and didn’t know his own limitations and the wheels fell off in an ugly train wreck.

 

The whole episode sucked.

 

That kid slipped at the tail of the previous season as I recall but before that he was f***ing lights out.

 

Just another example of poor management.

[jacksonianmarch]

Thanks Ben. Bobby V knew that the kid didn’t have the makeup to be a starter. Ben and Bard wanted it. I remember reading early on in Spring Training that Bobby V asked the kid if he was sure that he wanted to pursue starting after a couple of rocky outings. To me, Bobby knew that the kid didn’t have it and he was looking to give him a way out. Bard was stubborn and didn’t know his own limitations and the wheels fell off in an ugly train wreck.

 

That’d be like the Yankees trying to convert Betances back to starting. Bard was a tall guy with huge stuff who couldn’t locate for s*** in the minors. He finds the zone for a short while in the pen as a big leaguer. You don’t mess with that. I will say from day 1, I posted on here about how stupid that idea was. There are guys who you can do that with. Guys with a history of severe command issues aren’t the guys to do it with

[S5Dewey]

The whole episode sucked.

 

That kid slipped at the tail of the previous season as I recall but before that he was f***ing lights out.

 

Just another example of poor management.

 

I never understood what happened there. Bard was a respectable reliever but then insisted that he wanted to be a starter and screwed up his career. I'm not sure whether to blame it on poor management or Bard's stubbornness.

[Jack Flap]

Dave Dombrowski and Scott Boras are competent professionals who I suspect will retain mutual respect even if they fail to close a deal this offseason.

 

Relax, Mr. H...it was a joke.

[notin]

Thanks Ben. Bobby V knew that the kid didn’t have the makeup to be a starter. Ben and Bard wanted it. I remember reading early on in Spring Training that Bobby V asked the kid if he was sure that he wanted to pursue starting after a couple of rocky outings. To me, Bobby knew that the kid didn’t have it and he was looking to give him a way out. Bard was stubborn and didn’t know his own limitations and the wheels fell off in an ugly train wreck.

 

I read plenty of stories that conflicted with the idea that Ben wanted him to start.

[notin]

This thread needs a new title. considering how "hot" the stove has been around the league. Yesterday, the Dodgers, Royals and White Sox swapped 6 uniforms filled with mediocrity 113 people commented about it on MLBTR.

 

40 days until pitchers and catchers report...

[cp176]

I read plenty of stories that conflicted with the idea that Ben wanted him to start.

 

hey notin I'm with you here but it never made much sense to me that some here have tried to blame everything bad that happened in boston on Larry when he was here as well - some of it might just happen to have something to do with who we like and who we don't when expressing our opinions I guess.

[Kimmi]

I read plenty of stories that conflicted with the idea that Ben wanted him to start.

 

IMO, the decline of Bard had nothing to do with the decision to convert him to a starter. There were clear signs of Bard's difficulties starting at the end of the previous season. I think Bard would have fallen apart either way.

 

Regardless, if you have a pitcher that could realistically be a starter, I think you have to give it a shot. Starters are more valuable than relievers are. If it doesn't work, you put the guy back in the pen. It's usually not a big deal. Bard's inability to succeed has more to do with Bard's mental state than anything else.

[Kimmi]

Desperate Dave vs. Boarsass - when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object

 

LOL

 

I'm reading that Dombrowski is considering upping his offer to JD to 6 years.

 

Don't do it Dave! Stand your ground!

[cp176]

IMO, the decline of Bard had nothing to do with the decision to convert him to a starter. There were clear signs of Bard's difficulties starting at the end of the previous season. I think Bard would have fallen apart either way.

 

Regardless, if you have a pitcher that could realistically be a starter, I think you have to give it a shot. Starters are more valuable than relievers are. If it doesn't work, you put the guy back in the pen. It's usually not a big deal. Bard's inability to succeed has more to do with Bard's mental state than anything else.

 

It is just a sad story for him. A tremendous amount of promise lost. I had no problem at all with giving him a shot at starting. Bard's inability to go back to the pen is all about him.

[Kimmi]

It is just a sad story for him. A tremendous amount of promise lost. I had no problem at all with giving him a shot at starting. Bard's inability to go back to the pen is all about him.

 

I agree on all counts.

[FredLynn]

LOL

 

I'm reading that Dombrowski is considering upping his offer to JD to 6 years.

 

Don't do it Dave! Stand your ground!

 

Yup. Five years: no more. And even that is a stretch for Martinez, who is really going to end up as a DH. I would even prefer four years, though that is probably unlikely to get him. Longer than that (5) financially hobbles the franchise for many years to come. I can put up with one year of mediocrity as long as we have access to next year's FA class.

[Jack Flap]

Trying unsuccessfully for a few weeks to move Bard back to a starting role should not have tanked his entire career the way that it did...and indeed, there's an argument to be made that his implosion can be traced back to September 2011 (when he walked 9 in 11 innings with an ERA over 10) anyway. I don't think we know enough to pin it on any one person or factor. It's a sad story in any case.

[a700hitter]

Trying unsuccessfully for a few weeks to move Bard back to a starting role should not have tanked his entire career the way that it did...and indeed, there's an argument to be made that his implosion can be traced back to September 2011 (when he walked 9 in 11 innings with an ERA over 10) anyway. I don't think we know enough to pin it on any one person or factor. It's a sad story in any case.

In the bullpen, his deficiencies would not have been as exposed. He was not capable of going through a lineup a second time. His career probably would have fallen apart, but it might have taken longer.

[cp176]

In the bullpen, his deficiencies would not have been as exposed. He was not capable of going through a lineup a second time. His career probably would have fallen apart, but it might have taken longer.

 

Very likely true. Eventually things probably would have caught up with him just not so soon.

[notin]

Yup. Five years: no more. And even that is a stretch for Martinez, who is really going to end up as a DH. I would even prefer four years, though that is probably unlikely to get him. Longer than that (5) financially hobbles the franchise for many years to come. I can put up with one year of mediocrity as long as we have access to next year's FA class.

 

Would you have passed on Encarnacion for 3 years last season?

[notin]

Trying unsuccessfully for a few weeks to move Bard back to a starting role should not have tanked his entire career the way that it did...and indeed, there's an argument to be made that his implosion can be traced back to September 2011 (when he walked 9 in 11 innings with an ERA over 10) anyway. I don't think we know enough to pin it on any one person or factor. It's a sad story in any case.

 

My main issue with Bard was that he always had control issues. Too many on BDC wanted to rush Papelbon out the door and install this guy as closer for some reason...

[notin]

hey notin I'm with you here but it never made much sense to me that some here have tried to blame everything bad that happened in boston on Larry when he was here as well - some of it might just happen to have something to do with who we like and who we don't when expressing our opinions I guess.

 

I hold Ben accountable for his good and bad moves. But that off-season I remember him not being allowed to spend to the point where Marco Scutaro had be dealt in a salary dump. No way we could bring on a starting pitcher. ..

[notin]

In the bullpen, his deficiencies would not have been as exposed. He was not capable of going through a lineup a second time. His career probably would have fallen apart, but it might have taken longer.

 

I think that first sentence can be applied to every pitcher in MLB. And the second one to most relievers...

[moonslav59]

In the bullpen, his deficiencies would not have been as exposed. He was not capable of going through a lineup a second time. His career probably would have fallen apart, but it might have taken longer.

 

I think that was a big part of it, and the numbers support this view:

 

Batters' OPS against

.791 1st PA as starter (90 PAs)

.701 2nd PA as starter (82 PAs)

.897 3rd PA as starter (only 67 PAs)

(8 PAs 4th time around for an .875 OPS Against)

 

However, a strange thing happened that kind of countered this view. He had a 9.00 ERA in the first inning, which, in theory, should have been like a RP'er inning.

5.59 ERA in 2nd inning

3.00 3rd inning

1.00 4th inning

(Some of these innings may have been as a RP'er.)