9/26 Vs. Toronto

[FredLynn]

Throwing out his dreadful 2015 season with the Red Sox, Hanley Ramirez has posted 2.2 fWAR, valued at $17.3 million, over the past two seasons while receiving an annual salary of $22 million. Last year Ramirez posted 2.7 fWAR, valued at $21.5 million, in his only productive season with the Sox.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=8001&position=SS

 

Ramirez has posted a net 0.5 fWAR, valued at $3.3 million, in three seasons while costing the Red Sox $66 million. He's a tough entry on the ledger sheet.

 

So you are saying that Hanley sucks. I think we can stipulate that.

[TylerD]

So we will be three games up with five to play. At the end of the day I would rather be three games up on the Yankees than in their position of being three games down, injuries be damned.

 

Completely agreed but this isn't the series I thought we would struggle with. Astros even resting some players will be a tough series. If we get swept by the Jays and the Yanks are only down 2 games entering the Houston series I'll be s***ing my pants. No two ways about it.

[Maxbialystock]

A soupcon of hope in the bottom of the 8th and hitting for the cycle--dinger, triple, double, and single. Three runs even. Game still out of reach, but tomorrow's game might not already be lost even with Porcello starting.

[Maxbialystock]

Completely agreed but this isn't the series I thought we would struggle with. Astros even resting some players will be a tough series. If we get swept by the Jays and the Yanks are only down 2 games entering the Houston series I'll be s***ing my pants. No two ways about it.

 

You know Porcello starts tomorrow, right? 10-17 Porcello?

[illinoisredsox]

The offense is coming through a bit. Sale blew this one and gave us zero chance. This team is known for their late heroic games. 4 runs with our ace should be a win. Just saying.

 

True but 3 of those were against a guy who would never sniff the mound in a closer game.

[mvp 78]

Poopy

[Maxbialystock]

9-4. Just about right for a debacle with our ace on the mound.

[Maxbialystock]

Throwing out his dreadful 2015 season with the Red Sox, Hanley Ramirez has posted 2.2 fWAR, valued at $17.3 million, over the past two seasons while receiving an annual salary of $22 million. Last year Ramirez posted 2.7 fWAR, valued at $21.5 million, in his only productive season with the Sox.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=8001&position=SS

 

Ramirez has posted a net 0.5 fWAR, valued at $3.3 million, in three seasons while costing the Red Sox $66 million. He's a tough entry on the ledger sheet.

 

I never said we are getting our money's worth. I just explained why it makes more sense to keep him than release him. He ain't Pablo.

[TylerD]

At least they made it somewhat interesting...... I guess....

[TylerD]

True but 3 of those were against a guy who would never sniff the mound in a closer game.

Good point.

[Slasher9]

I am incredulous at the comments about Sale not pitching tonight in order to rest him for the postseason.

 

But maybe I do understand. By not starting Sale, Farrell could have sent out Porcello, followed by ERod, Pom, Fister, and, oh yes, Porcello again for the last game of the season. The Yankees meanwhile will be down 3 after tonight and continue with their hot streak while the Sox rotation is shredded and the lineup continues to struggle as it has for big chunks of this season.

 

I am exaggerating only a little to make this point. Last year the consensus on talksox, reiterated ad nauseum, was the Farrell rested guys which cost the Sox the homefield advantage. Imagine the furor this year if the Sox don't even win the AL East.

 

Either way, it will be so, so nice to blame Farrell for not using the right players at the right time. If he doesn't start Sale tonight, he's trying to lose now. If he does start him, he's not resting him for the postseason. But it's gotcha either way.

 

Max. He should have been rested after the 5th inning his last start. All those bullets should have been saved

[d-money]

f***ing pathetic tonight! This team's too laid back. Listen I know sale has pitched over 200 innings but it shouldn't be an excuse. Pedro Martínez has pitched over 200 innings before. His pitching stunk tonight!

[d-money]

It would be laughable if this team choked. It's now 3 games. Porcello goes tomorrow. If it gets down to two games then it could get very interesting. Isn't Houston still interested in getting home field throughout?

[moonslav59]

Max. He should have been rested after the 5th inning his last start. All those bullets should have been saved

 

At the very least- YES!

 

300 Ks was given as an excuse.

 

Unforgivable!

 

JF is a complete idiot.

[SoxHop]

Max. He should have been rested after the 5th inning his last start. All those bullets should have been saved

 

I was thinking this while watching the game. Kind of said why not let him go. What's a few more innings this year.

 

I 100 percent think he should have been pulled in inning 5 or 6 with a 70'ish pitch count now the last two games...... that stupid 300 and 313 mark blinded me...

[d-money]

I was thinking this while watching the game. Kind of said why not let him go. What's a few more innings this year.

 

I 100 percent think he should have been pulled in inning 5 or 6 with a 70'ish pitch count now the last two games...... that stupid 300 and 313 mark blinded me...

 

Sale's 6'6. This guy needs to add some weight and muscle if he can't handle over 200 innings. He's 28.

[illinoisredsox]

Max. He should have been rested after the 5th inning his last start. All those bullets should have been saved

 

At the very least- YES!

 

300 Ks was given as an excuse.

 

Unforgivable!

 

JF is a complete idiot.

 

As Colonel Potter would have put it: Horse Hockey. Mule Fritters. Buffalo Bagels.

 

He had 6 days off, more than enough time to recover. Did either of you consider that the extra time may have contributed to his less than stellar outing? My guess is no because it it doesn't fit your narrative. Truth is, you don't know and neither do I.

[SoxHop]

As Colonel Potter would have put it: Horse Hockey. Mule Fritters. Buffalo Bagels.

 

He had 6 days off, more than enough time to recover. Did either of you consider that the extra time may have actually contributed to his less than stellar outing? My guess is no because it it doesn't fit your narrative. Truth is, you don't know and neither do I.

 

I don't know. You don't know. But making him go 111 pitches when it doesn't matter doesn't make sense when we could have pulled him way earlier. And resting playing getting into the playoffs seems to be the most important thing about success in the playoffs. Especially a pitcher who is known to have lesser performance later in the year probably because of fatigue.

[illinoisredsox]

I don't know. You don't know. But making him go 111 pitches when it doesn't matter doesn't make sense when we could have pulled him way earlier. And resting playing getting into the playoffs seems to be the most important thing about success in the playoffs. Especially a pitcher who is known to have lesser performance later in the year probably because of fatigue.

 

But right now they have to get there. Does starting Valazquez or some other minor leaguer else make that more likley? The time to build in rest was in July and August. And the board was screaming when Farrell tried to give that to Sale (and the rest of the stff) back then.

 

The team is flawed and has been all year, and now injuries are cropping up; Betts has a hand/wrist that could be very problematic going forward. Pedey and Nunez have knee problems. That is very troublesome. JBJ is in one of his semingly endless funks (don't forget he had a thumb issue earlier this month). Hanley hasn' been there all year. Benintendi banged a ball off his ankle tonight. They will win or lose on whether or not they hit, and to do that they need everyone back and reasonable healthy; I'm not overly worried about the pitching.

[cp176]

I must have missed something last night as I was watching Sale pitch. The part I guess where he was supposed to look tired out and fatigued and in need of rest. He had if anything more velocity on his fastball than he has recently. Looked pretty strong to me. Toronto hit the ball. Give them credit.

[Maxbialystock]

moonslav, et al, perhaps a few numbers might inform our thoughts about Sale's pitch count. These came from his game log on espn--

 

He has done about the same all year long on five days rest and on six days rest. Last time out he pitched an 8 inning gem on 5 days rest. This time he got killed with 4 dingers on 6 days rest. It's been like that all year.

 

FWIW, he has started 13 games on 5 days rest for the season, which means 19 on 6 or more days rest.

 

His monthly ERA highs and lows are: highest were 4.24 in May and 4.38 in August. Lows were April, 1.19, and July, 1.04. September is 3.72, between his 2 best and 2 worst months.

 

His lowest monthly pitch count is 506 in September. Next lowest is 534 in April, then June with 548, then July with 574. All four months were with five starts each.

 

His two worst ERA months, May and August, were also months in which he started 6 games and threw the most pitches, 655 and 611.

 

His best three consecutive starts, all shutouts and averaging 7 innings per start, were this first three start after the ASG and on 9 days rest.

 

By far the most dingers in a month came this month with 9. His average dingers/month for the first 5 months were 3 per month for a total of 15.

 

He has 44 K's in 29 innings this month, about on a par with other months when he pitched more innings and had more K's.

[Slasher9]

a pitchers arm only has so many bullets. wasting them on a blowout game with a oversized September pen sitting there is f***ing dumb. it's as simple as that. it's not really debatable. ask sandy koufax if a pitchers arm has infinite bullets.....

[Bellhorn04]

a pitchers arm only has so many bullets. wasting them on a blowout game with a oversized September pen sitting there is f***ing dumb. it's as simple as that. it's not really debatable. ask sandy koufax if a pitchers arm has infinite bullets.....

 

Koufax had 3 seasons where he threw over 300 innings, topping out at an incredible 335!

 

Sale has pitched 214 innings this year. A very reasonable workload for an ace-type pitcher.

 

111 pitches has never been considered an excessive amount to throw in a game. And he had 5 days off after that.

[OH FOY]

Like Lou Merloni's theory about Sale as season progresses. He faces team more than 2 times, and teams aren't so surprised at his stuff and his motion. It happened to him when he was in the Central Division. More you face a guy the more comfortable you are you can figure him out. Maybe slight decline, notice only slight is needed to catch up to pitcher like Sale, when you faced him multilple times.

Cleveland faced him for years, not as ill prepared with his herky jerky motion.

Relax he'll figure it out too good a Pitcher.

Edited September 27, 2017 by OH FOY!

[illinoisredsox]

Koufax had 3 seasons where he threw over 300 innings, topping out at an incredible 335!

 

Sale has pitched 214 innings this year. A very reasonable workload for an ace-type pitcher.

 

111 pitches has never been considered an excessive amount to throw in a game. And he had 5 days off after that.

 

Given that Koufax had to retire at age 30, probably not the best example.

 

However, I'll bring up another lefty from just after Koufax. Steve Carlton had 2 seasons over 300 innings, topping out at 346 in his ridiculous 1972 season (when he went 27-10 for a Phillies team that won 59 games). More to the point, from 1968 to 1984, he was well over 200 innings all but one year (the strike shortened 1981 season when he was at 190 in basically 2/3 of a season) with most of those over 250. He started to taper off after his age 39 season in 1984.

[Slasher9]

Koufax had 3 seasons where he threw over 300 innings, topping out at an incredible 335!

 

Sale has pitched 214 innings this year. A very reasonable workload for an ace-type pitcher.

 

111 pitches has never been considered an excessive amount to throw in a game. And he had 5 days off after that.

 

the MLB landscape is filled with "ace like" pitchers that are unable to toe the rubber because the arm can only take so much. one only has to look on our roster to find a $31MM Ace that has failed to climb in the ring most of the season. when it's the end of the season and you can give the arm of your ace a game, a few innings, a few pitches off....you do it. it's pretty simple stuff. JF f***ed up big time. to defend him on his decision to let Sale throw 111 pitches in a blowout game in mid September when you are headed to the postseason is [ ]? you fill in the blank.

[jad]

Sale's 6'6. This guy needs to add some weight and muscle if he can't handle over 200 innings. He's 28.

 

Ted Williams needed to put on weight as well.

[TylerD]

Sale's 6'6. This guy needs to add some weight and muscle if he can't handle over 200 innings. He's 28.

 

This.

 

The guy isn't even 180 pounds and being 6 foot 6 that is horribly under weight..... That could be a reason that contributes to him having a downhill 2nd half season..... as this isn't first time he has done it. Although it hasn't been a horrendous 2nd half of the season... It certainly hasn't been what he was throwing before the All Star break. But then again there are a lot of thin pitchers that seem to have a solid year all the way through. Price (not regarding playoffs) is usually solid from beginning to finish and he can't be much more than Sale in weight.

[Maxbialystock]

a pitchers arm only has so many bullets. wasting them on a blowout game with a oversized September pen sitting there is f***ing dumb. it's as simple as that. it's not really debatable. ask sandy koufax if a pitchers arm has infinite bullets.....

 

Koufax quit in 1966 at age 31 because he was diagnosed with traumatic arthritis in 1964 when he couldn't straighten his arm the day after pitching a shutout. The diagnosis was by the team physician, Dr Bob Kerlan. The next year, still fighting arthritic pain, he pitched his fourth no-hitter and the first perfect game by a lefty since 1880. He had 14 strikeouts. That same year, 1965, despite fighting arthritic pain, he was the WS MVP after pitching a shutout to clinch the Series.

 

The next year, his last, he and Drysdale were holdouts for more money. That spring Dr Kerlan told him not to pitch another season, but he still pitched 323 innings, went 27-9, and had an ERA of 1.73. That became his last season in part because of the pain and in part because continuing to pitch could make his arm useless and even painful in his retirement. He certainly did not retire because he had no more great pitches or great games in him.

[FredLynn]

Ted Williams needed to put on weight as well.

 

He didn't see it that way. In fact, his weight loss plan was to have his head removed. How creative!