A Realistic View at 2017 Part II

[S5Dewey]

I've never said to myself, "JF just made a call or decision that won us a game". I hate to go game by game or blame a single person for one loss, but I never feel like JF wins us anything. There are a lot of time I felt he had a hand in a loss.

 

Well...other than calling Kimbrel in during the 8th to save a couple of games recently, I agree with you. However, I'm going to play the "what we don't know card" here.

 

I've long believed that the biggest function of a mangers is to keep the clubhouse happy - which is probably a full-time job in itself with 25 different egos, needs, and expectations there.

 

As my manager used to tell me, "A happy employee is a productive employee". We don't have knowledge of what goes in in the clubhouse, but lacking any negative leaks I have to assume that things are hunky-dory there for the most part. If so that speaks well for what I see as Farrell's main job.

 

I will say that Bosoxmal's idea of bringing Papi in as field manager isn't the worst idea I've heard all week. Papi is a motivator who knows the players and knows baseball, and IMO a little motivation (a/k/a 'ass-kicking') is exactly what this team needs right now.

 

...not that I think David Ortiz is walking through that door. I don't. But it's still not a bad idea.

[moonslav59]

Well...other than calling Kimbrel in during the 8th to save a couple of games recently, I agree with you. However, I'm going to play the "what we don't know card" here.

 

I've long believed that the biggest function of a mangers is to keep the clubhouse happy - which is probably a full-time job in itself with 25 different egos, needs, and expectations there.

 

As my manager used to tell me, "A happy employee is a productive employee". We don't have knowledge of what goes in in the clubhouse, but lacking any negative leaks I have to assume that things are hunky-dory there for the most part. If so that speaks well for what I see as Farrell's main job.

 

I will say that Bosoxmal's idea of bringing Papi in as field manager isn't the worst idea I've heard all week. Papi is a motivator who knows the players and knows baseball, and IMO a little motivation (a/k/a 'ass-kicking') is exactly what this team needs right now.

 

...not that I think David Ortiz is walking through that door. I don't. But it's still not a bad idea.

 

I do not think Papi would be a good choice.

 

Managing does involve motivating, but I don't see much energy. Never have with JF, except on walk-offs.

 

I think he has also been overly "loyal" to struggling vets. It has worked sometimes, but has back-fired too many times, IMO..

 

[oldtimer]

I do not think Papi would be a good choice.

 

Managing does involve motivating, but I don't see much energy. Never have with JF, except on walk-offs.

 

I think he has also been overly "loyal" to struggling vets. It has worked sometimes, but has back-fired too many times, IMO..

 

 

My impression of Farrell is a person who is impassive. It is hard to know what goes on in the dugout or the locker room, but he has given me the impression of a sitting Buddha. Francona was more a friend of the players and his approach certainly worked although he might have had trouble getting along with some in the front office who has now gone. I wouldn't think of Ortiz as someone who would manage a team day to day, but one who could be a motivator.

[moonslav59]

My impression of Farrell is a person who is impassive. It is hard to know what goes on in the dugout or the locker room, but he has given me the impression of a sitting Buddha. Francona was more a friend of the players and his approach certainly worked although he might have had trouble getting along with some in the front office who has now gone. I wouldn't think of Ortiz as someone who would manage a team day to day, but one who could be a motivator.

 

Agreed.

 

I do think Francona's "friendliness" turned into a fault as he let some of his vets get out of hand.

[Emp9]

Any examples of a manager winning a game?

 

I'd say 2016 Tribe vs Sox ALDS Game 1 Terry Francona

[Slasher9]

I won't have to. There will be dozens of posters coming out of the woodwork claiming they hated the trade at the time.

 

me, me, me.

[moonslav59]

I'd say 2016 Tribe vs Sox ALDS Game 1 Terry Francona

 

Yes.

 

It's hard to credit a manager with wins, because it usually just involves doing what you're supposed to do.

 

It's easier to find faults.

 

I don't pick on game to game decisions, although I find myself disagreeing with JF more than other past managers.

 

My beef is with the apparent lack of motivation, lack of fundamentals, and lack of any signs of brilliance.

 

Francona lost the clubhouse during a trying time in his life, but the guy had smarts.

[sk7326]

I'd say 2016 Tribe vs Sox ALDS Game 1 Terry Francona

 

There are very few managers who (tactically) add value. Francona - in terms of handling the pitching staff - qualifies. But - in terms of the lineup - even with Cleveland - he is not much of a tinkerer ... it's really hard to make much of a dent there.

[Kimmi]

I called out Ben for building s***** pitching staffs when there were obvious glaring needs. I will call out DD for doing nothing to replace a HOF bat.

 

But you have to remember that there's more than one way to build a contender. You say he did nothing to replace a HOF bat. He got Chris Sale. That's doing something pretty big.

[Kimmi]

And I will call him out for dressing like Tommy Heinson circa 1972.

 

That and acquiring damaged goods in Pomeranz , Smith and Thornberg.

 

Don't bother lecturing me about how that is not his fault. He made those deals and we have gotten almost NOTHING IN RETURN to date.

 

I realize no one bats 100% in dealings but those are three high profile failures.

 

So, if Sale were pitching like Pomeranz is right now, is that Dombrowski's fault?

 

If Price never makes another start for us, is that Dombrowski's fault?

 

I can see the argument in blaming him for Pomeranz because there were some sketchy medicals and Dombrowski declined to take back that trade, but he really can't be blamed for the other injuries.

 

That said, he can be blamed for his erroneous team building philosophy.

[Kimmi]

Good to see Dombroski take some hits, which he definitely deserves.

 

#BringBackBen

[Kimmi]

Well...other than calling Kimbrel in during the 8th to save a couple of games recently, I agree with you. However, I'm going to play the "what we don't know card" here.

 

I've long believed that the biggest function of a mangers is to keep the clubhouse happy - which is probably a full-time job in itself with 25 different egos, needs, and expectations there.

 

As my manager used to tell me, "A happy employee is a productive employee". We don't have knowledge of what goes in in the clubhouse, but lacking any negative leaks I have to assume that things are hunky-dory there for the most part. If so that speaks well for what I see as Farrell's main job.

I will say that Bosoxmal's idea of bringing Papi in as field manager isn't the worst idea I've heard all week. Papi is a motivator who knows the players and knows baseball, and IMO a little motivation (a/k/a 'ass-kicking') is exactly what this team needs right now.

 

...not that I think David Ortiz is walking through that door. I don't. But it's still not a bad idea.

 

I completely agree with the part in bold.

[Emp9]

There are very few managers who (tactically) add value. Francona - in terms of handling the pitching staff - qualifies. But - in terms of the lineup - even with Cleveland - he is not much of a tinkerer ... it's really hard to make much of a dent there.

 

I look at Farrell and think, well, at least he's not bobby Valentine, but Francona is twice the manager Farrell is. s***, if I just think about WS wins, Francona is an good inning shy of being three times the manager Farrell is. I don't hate Farrell too much. I don't like his lineups much (some here don't think that's a big deal, so I'll digress), or some pinch running decisions that have cost us dearly. I liked him as pitching coach, but being manager warrants too much macro managing and not a lot of micro managing I'll assume. We get Price back, and hopefully Smith, and HanRam fully healthy, (3B is whole 'nother issue that goes beyond Farrell)... then see how we do. I want to give Farrell some time to work things out. We get some weapons back, we'll have a clearer picture on what needs to be done, if indeed we need to do anything at all.

[moonslav59]

Unjustifiably so, GMs in all sports are mostly judged in hindsight- like they were supposed to know a player was going to get hurt or enter a period of steep unexpected decline.

 

There's lots of gray area--like was it DD's fault Thornburg misinterpreted the winter workout regime?

 

Was it DD's fault to sign a pitcher to $30+M a year with most years on the wrong side of top prime? (The club philosophy was not to do that before-perhaps for good reason-perhaps not.)

 

Was it DD's fault to not nix the Pom trade? (Of course, I say yes, since I hated the trade even with a healthy Pom.)

 

Some of these moves could be viewed as judging in "foresight".

 

The Ben signing of Pablo was slammed by many of us. He was in a pretty steep and constant slide before we signed him. He was overweight. Did Ben drop the ball on not insisting on some sort of weight clause or check-in on over the winter? (I say yes and yes, and I'm a big Ben fan.)

 

Should Ben have foreseen injuries for HRam? I say yes.

 

That's the pessimist view. One could see it like this too: if Price and Thornburg were healthy and Wright was pitching like early 2016, we'd all be praising his genius as we'd be 3-4 games up in the AL East with Carson Smith's pending return brightening the future outlook.

 

One could ask, would Ben still be here if HRam and Porcello had their 2016 seasons in 2015?

[Spudboy]

So, if Sale were pitching like Pomeranz is right now, is that Dombrowski's fault?

 

If Price never makes another start for us, is that Dombrowski's fault?

 

I can see the argument in blaming him for Pomeranz because there were some sketchy medicals and Dombrowski declined to take back that trade, but he really can't be blamed for the other injuries.

 

That said, he can be blamed for his erroneous team building philosophy.

 

Both Price and Sale were healthy at the time of acquisition. Smith was not and somehow we are to believe that Thornberg screwed up directions for an off season training program and is now injured. Both of these deal are suspect at best. That is on DD.

[Wade Boggs]

So, if Sale were pitching like Pomeranz is right now, is that Dombrowski's fault?

 

If Price never makes another start for us, is that Dombrowski's fault?

 

I can see the argument in blaming him for Pomeranz because there were some sketchy medicals and Dombrowski declined to take back that trade, but he really can't be blamed for the other injuries.

 

That said, he can be blamed for his erroneous team building philosophy.

 

Most of it. Not many pitchers over the age of 30 should get seven year contracts . They don't hold up. We traded a versatile player like Shaw who played first and third , and didn't really make a lot of money. They signed Moreland because of it.

 

The Sale deal made sense .They didn't know if Price could handle Boston after all. Plus they didn't know what kind of year Porcello would have this year. Just being a top five pitcher is different for Porcello.

 

If they bring up Devers , I hope they have some lead way with him. If he goes into a Moncada 2 /25 and makes 4 errors over there, they will move him.

 

The whole key is Price. If he pitches good and is healthy, it's fine. I have my doubts Price pitches into July injury free.

 

Management is in a tough spot.

[a700hitter]

But you have to remember that there's more than one way to build a contender. You say he did nothing to replace a HOF bat. He got Chris Sale. That's doing something pretty big.

I think he built an unbalanced team. There was plenty of opportunity to improve the offense, but he didn't. He neglected the offense.

[mvp 78]

#BringBackBen

 

I guess we need to get MORE untradeable contracts?

[mvp 78]

I think he built an unbalanced team. There was plenty of opportunity to improve the offense, but he didn't. He neglected the offense.

 

I think he sees Travis and Devers in the pipeline and didn't want to get more than a one year contract 1b guy. Where else could they have improved?

[oldtimer]

Most of it. Not many pitchers over the age of 30 should get seven year contracts . They don't hold up. We traded a versatile player like Shaw who played first and third , and didn't really make a lot of money. They signed Moreland because of it.

 

The Sale deal made sense .They didn't know if Price could handle Boston after all. Plus they didn't know what kind of year Porcello would have this year. Just being a top five pitcher is different for Porcello.

 

If they bring up Devers , I hope they have some lead way with him. If he goes into a Moncada 2 /25 and makes 4 errors over there, they will move him.

 

The whole key is Price. If he pitches good and is healthy, it's fine. I have my doubts Price pitches into July injury free.

 

Management is in a tough spot.

 

It's hard for me to believe a 7 year high cost deal for a pitcher with a lot of mileage will work out favorably. More likely we will get diminishing returns or outright injury prone years going forward along with the $30 million salary. Not Price's fault but the decision makers. I hope he can come back and pitch decently this year as we really need a 4th starter now, let alone a 5th sarter.

 

DD is to some degree encumbered with some of the prior and expensive deals. Pablo and Hanlley do impact the salary cap while Catillo and Craig are more omens of what can go wrong with signings. Hanley seemed to be comfortable with his role last year and performed well while Pablo did not and may not goiing forward. Hard to criticize DD a lot for trying to stay below the salary cap with resignings of some of our best young talent on the horizon.

 

I wonder though about our program with pitchers where we seem to have an inordinate amout of injuries and underperformances. Is there something going on there with the coaching staff where our hoped for starting and relief pitching is oft injured and/or underperforming? Individual players also have to be accountable but we appear to be coming up short after three starters and one reliever.

[mvp 78]

If Ben had just signed Lester, they wouldn't have felt the need to grab Price too.

[a700hitter]

I think he sees Travis and Devers in the pipeline and didn't want to get more than a one year contract 1b guy. Where else could they have improved?

I think there were many options for a big bat for 1, 2 or 3 year commitments at a reasonable cost (EE, Napoli, Beltran, Holliday off the top of my head). None of them would have blocked Devers.

[Slasher9]

I think there were many options for a big bat for 1, 2 or 3 year commitments at a reasonable cost (EE, Napoli, Beltran, Holliday off the top of my head). None of them would have blocked Devers.

 

your head is 25%. and that 1 ($13MM) would have put us over the LT limit which we all know JH wanted to reset.

 

.198 / .328 / .620

.165 / .353 / .578

.255 / .388 / .677

.279 / .529 / .916

[mvp 78]

I think there were many options for a big bat for 1, 2 or 3 year commitments at a reasonable cost (EE, Napoli, Beltran, Holliday off the top of my head). None of them would have blocked Devers.

 

They wanted a 1 year contract, not a 2 or 3 year contract.

 

EE was for 3 years and he has sucked this year.

 

Napoli signed a larger 1 year contract than Moreland and has been worse defensively and offensively.

 

Beltran signed a HUGE 1 year contract, doesn't play 1b and has sucked.

 

Holliday signed a $13M 1 year contract, is a s***** defender and has played very well. His slugging hasn't been this high since 2011. I'm not sure many people expect it to continue.

 

Frankly, the sox got a plus bat for $5.5M for one year. His defense has been poor, but none of the guys you mentioned would have been an upgrade defensively. The only guy who is better offensively is Holliday, but I don't think many people would want to sign him for $13M just for shits and giggles.

[a700hitter]

your head is 25%. and that 1 ($13MM) would have put us over the LT limit which we all know JH wanted to reset.

 

.198 / .328 / .620

.165 / .353 / .578

.255 / .388 / .677

.279 / .529 / .916

SSS all. And $5.5 million would have been saved on Moreland. Were we only $7 1/2 million from the luxury tax? Napoli is getting $6 million.

[mvp 78]

SSS all. And $5.5 million would have been saved on Moreland. Were we only $7 1/2 million from the luxury tax? Napoli is getting $6 million.

 

$6M for a guy hitting .165? Sign me up!

[a700hitter]

$6M for a guy hitting .165? Sign me up!

SSS, and he has a career OPS of .824. and .349 OBP versus .755 and .317 for Moreland

[mvp 78]

SSS, and he has a career OPS of .824. and .349 OBP versus .755 and .317 for Moreland

 

Career OPS numbers don't matter when you're talking about an aging slugger that could possibly retire this offseason.

[a700hitter]

Career OPS numbers don't matter when you're talking about an aging slugger that could possibly retire this offseason.

A lot of people thought he was through when we traded him and then he had his best career year last season.

[a700hitter]

And let's not make this argument a referendum on whether Napoli is through, because on my list of 4, he was my 4th choice. The list might be longer than 4. I just threw them out off the top of my head. I stand by larger point -- that DD flubbed by not addressing the gaping hole left by Big Papi. On the positive side of the ledger for DD, he is not Ben who would have brought us more last place finishes.