2017 Rotation Discussion

[cp176]

Pomeranz has come a long way in the eyes of many. I really have liked the kid and now I like him more. He is a big left hander who has some pop on that fastball and a devastating curve ball. What I really liked seeing though was the other night when the camera gave us a shot of him on the dugout steps. He really looked like he wanted to stay in that game. I get the knock on his failure to get us depict games but the way pitching is approached has changed dramatically. He has been held to the proverbial 100+ a few pitch count even when things have gone well. I really think that his "toughness" factor has elevated throughout the course of this season. I'm sure that it hasn't hurt having Sale at the top of the rotation. My guess is that Pomeranz's best years are ahead of him.

[cp176]

I also have to add that what Kluber did last night to Nunez was ridiculous. I don't think that swinging hard really merits getting hit by a pitch. That being said, i really hope that we see nothing that resembles retaliation for Kluber's stupid move out of Sale. Just win the game.

[Kimmi]

Price is missing all the fun. Having another lefty power pitcher would be great in September. Will it happen?

 

The clock is working against him. What's awesome is that the rest of the guys have really stepped it up. We have not missed Price so far.

[Spudboy]

I'm just wondering what people now expect from Fister.

 

Since his acquisition he has taken all types of s*** from this board. Indeed he did seem to be somewhat of a dumpster dive I guess.

 

He has thrown up two absolute stinkers to my memory. This would justify the criticism.

 

But now he has thrown three strong games including two that could be considered dominant performances.

 

How should we view this guy?

 

Right now I am glad he is here and he is a decent #5.

 

What do you folks think?

[S5Dewey]

Pomeranz has come a long way in the eyes of many. I really have liked the kid and now I like him more. He is a big left hander who has some pop on that fastball and a devastating curve ball. What I really liked seeing though was the other night when the camera gave us a shot of him on the dugout steps. He really looked like he wanted to stay in that game. I get the knock on his failure to get us depict games but the way pitching is approached has changed dramatically. He has been held to the proverbial 100+ a few pitch count even when things have gone well. I really think that his "toughness" factor has elevated throughout the course of this season. I'm sure that it hasn't hurt having Sale at the top of the rotation. My guess is that Pomeranz's best years are ahead of him.

My best guess is that Farrell is holding him back knowing that he's never thrown 200 innings in a season in his life. I'd rather see him consistently pulled at the 100 mark than have him develop a 'dead arm' late in September.

 

Also, I was thinking about the 'toughness factor' recently and if there's one thing I'm feeling the best about it's that this team believes that they're tough - that they never give up or give in. That's exactly the attitude a team needs in the playoffs.

 

It's taken a while but I'm liking this team now. More so since Devers and Numez have shown up. They seem to have put the chip on the shoulder of the Sox going into the late season.

[S5Dewey]

I'm just wondering what people now expect from Fister.

 

Since his acquisition he has taken all types of s*** from this board. Indeed he did seem to be somewhat of a dumpster dive I guess.

 

He has thrown up two absolute stinkers to my memory. This would justify the criticism.

 

But now he has thrown three strong games including two that could be considered dominant performances.

 

How should we view this guy?

 

Right now I am glad he is here and he is a decent #5.

 

What do you folks think?

 

I like what I'm seeing from Fister - usually. I'm trying to keep my expectations for him in check. After all, when we picked him up most of us saw him as a #5 dumpster dive guy and instead he's had some dominant outings.

 

I saw him as being a placeholder, consistently giving up 4-5 runs a game before running out of gas and hoping the hitting could keep us in it. While his bad outings have been disappointing, at the same time they weren't a lot worse than what I was expecting from him, while in his (unexpected) good outings he's been outstanding. On the whole he's exceeding my expectations.

[moonslav59]

My best guess is that Farrell is holding him back knowing that he's never thrown 200 innings in a season in his life....

 

He throws 250 innings every year...

 

...the problem is, it's only in 150 innings.

 

(LOL)

[Larry Cook]

Sale being beat like a dog by Cleveland again tonight.

[a700hitter]

The numbers by the Cleveland team against Sale before tonight were head scratchers. For some reason the entire team hits him very well. An enigma?

[cp176]

He throws 250 innings every year...

 

...the problem is, it's only in 150 innings.

 

(LOL)

 

I'm not going to do the statistical fact check but I wonder how unusual it is to use 100 pitches to get tho the 6th these days? Once again, looked to me like he didn't want his day to be done.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not going to do the statistical fact check but I wonder how unusual it is to use 100 pitches to get tho the 6th these days? Once again, looked to me like he didn't want his day to be done.

 

I've always used 15 pitches per inning as a benchmark. I think that's pretty close to average. That's 90 pitches in 6 innings. But throwing 100 pitches in 6 innings is not crazy high by any means. These days a 6 inning start is totally acceptable for most starters.

[Bellhorn04]

The numbers by the Cleveland team against Sale before tonight were head scratchers. For some reason the entire team hits him very well. An enigma?

 

It certainly seems like an example of the 'human element'. Sale can't be in a good frame of mind when he faces this team knowing the history. Very concerning to say the least.

[cp176]

I've always used 15 pitches per inning as a benchmark. I think that's pretty close to average. That's 90 pitches in 6 innings. But throwing 100 pitches in 6 innings is not crazy high by any means. These days a 6 inning start is totally acceptable for most starters.

 

I've always used the 15 per inning as well. Times have changed for sure. There are lots of reasons for the change not the least of which is the lengthy extension to the season if a team should make the playoffs.

[oldtimer]

I've always used the 15 per inning as well. Times have changed for sure. There are lots of reasons for the change not the least of which is the lengthy extension to the season if a team should make the playoffs.

 

Pitchers nibble on the corners or out of the strike zone to try and induce a swing which can lead to walks and increased number of pitches per inning. E-Rod is an example of that. Don't know why they do that when they can get the ball over, but it seems to be the way nowadays.

[Spudboy]

I've always used the 15 per inning as well. Times have changed for sure. There are lots of reasons for the change not the least of which is the lengthy extension to the season if a team should make the playoffs.

 

I'm old school so I think 100 pitch count is for pussies.

 

But I do understand that now days arms are abused starting at 10 years old and these guys make millions of dollars.

 

Got to protect those assets!

 

f*** that s***. Give me Dean Chance or Vida Blue. They will throw over 300 innings

[cp176]

I'm old school so I think 100 pitch count is for pussies.

 

But I do understand that now days arms are abused starting at 10 years old and these guys make millions of dollars.

 

Got to protect those assets!

 

f*** that s***. Give me Dean Chance or Vida Blue. They will throw over 300 innings

 

I'm with you even though i fully understand that times have changed. Can you imagine John Farrell going out to the mound to try to take the ball away from Gibson after 5+ innings of work in which he gave up a couple of hits at best? Even better - how about Nolan Ryan! We might never have heard of JF.

[Bellhorn04]

Bob Gibson and Nolan Ryan were amazing physical specimens.

 

Generally speaking though, pitching wreaks a lot of damage on the human arm.

[Spudboy]

Bob Gibson and Nolan Ryan were amazing physical specimens.

 

Generally speaking though, pitching wreaks a lot of damage on the human arm.

 

No doubt.

[illinoisredsox]

I'm with you even though i fully understand that times have changed. Can you imagine John Farrell going out to the mound to try to take the ball away from Gibson after 5+ innings of work in which he gave up a couple of hits at best? Even better - how about Nolan Ryan! We might never have heard of JF.

 

It was either 1967 or 1968 when Gibson NEVER was taken out of a game during an inning.

 

Couple of differences between now and "back in the day":

 

- every pitch now seems to be thrown with max effort. Overall speeds were less back then, but a pitcher would throw his fastball at 85% and rear back at 100% when he needed it.

 

- a lot more breaking pitches, especially the slider (which supposedly is very tough on the arm)

Edited August 25, 2017 by illinoisredsox

[cp176]

Bob Gibson and Nolan Ryan were amazing physical specimens.

 

Generally speaking though, pitching wreaks a lot of damage on the human arm.

 

very true

[cp176]

It was either 1967 or 1968 when Gibson NEVER was taken out of a game during an inning.

 

Couple of differences between now and "back in the day":

 

- every pitch now seems to be thrown with max effort. Overall speeds were less back then, but a pitcher would throw his fastball at 85% and rear back at 100% when he needed it.

 

- a lot more breaking pitches, especially the slider (which supposedly is very tough on the arm)

 

I know that you are right but I did love those days. My love of baseball kind of was honed on the efforts of guys like Warren Spahn so I guess it is pretty obvious where i'm coming from with my opinions on pitchers today. it was enough for me to just see the look in Pomeranz's face the other night. I think that he is a lot tougher than we - including me - think he is. This is a big young kid who quite possibly has a very good few years in front of him. Since his dugout squabble with Farrell, he looks like he has pitched with a little chip on his shoulder - like maybe he has been out to prove something. I like that.

[a700hitter]

It was either 1967 or 1968 when Gibson NEVER was taken out of a game during an inning.

 

Couple of differences between now and "back in the day":

 

- every pitch now seems to be thrown with max effort. Overall speeds were less back then, but a pitcher would throw his fastball at 85% and rear back at 100% when he needed it.

 

- a lot more breaking pitches, especially the slider (which supposedly is very tough on the arm)

All pitchers back then threw their pitches at different speeds. Today, only a few pitchers have an effective changeup and that pitch is thrown at one velocity. Luis Tiant had about 10 high octane fastballs a game. He used them in big spots for crucial outs. Everything else he threw had some sort of bend to it. Tha max velocity from pitch 1 imo is what is causing all the arm troubles. I heard some former pitcher say that you can't throw 95 mph for 6+ innings for an entire year.

[moonslav59]

I know that you are right but I did love those days. My love of baseball kind of was honed on the efforts of guys like Warren Spahn so I guess it is pretty obvious where i'm coming from with my opinions on pitchers today. it was enough for me to just see the look in Pomeranz's face the other night. I think that he is a lot tougher than we - including me - think he is. This is a big young kid who quite possibly has a very good few years in front of him. Since his dugout squabble with Farrell, he looks like he has pitched with a little chip on his shoulder - like maybe he has been out to prove something. I like that.

 

Well said.

 

It does seem to me that with all the modern day pitcher pampering going on, there seems to be more injuries not less.

 

4 day rotation to 5.

Extra days given when possible.

Pitch limits.

Longer all star break.

Less double headers.

Easier and more comfortable travel and sleeping arrangements.

 

Just to name a few.

[Bellhorn04]

Well said.

 

It does seem to me that with all the modern day pitcher pampering going on, there seems to be more injuries not less.

 

4 day rotation to 5.

Extra days given when possible.

Pitch limits.

Longer all star break.

Less double headers.

Easier and more comfortable travel and sleeping arrangements.

 

Just to name a few.

 

'Pampering' - now there's a word that clearly implies treating them like babies.

 

I get a lot of this old school stuff, I really do. But the high frequency of injuries to pitchers is a fact. Torn ligaments are a fact. It's understandable that teams would like to avoid them.

 

And nobody really knows exactly why the incidence of TJ surgery-inducing injuries is so high now. There are a lot of theories, as with many things.

[cp176]

Bob Gibson and Nolan Ryan were amazing physical specimens.

 

Generally speaking though, pitching wreaks a lot of damage on the human arm.

 

you are of course right with the "damage on the human arm" comment. I also agree with you with respect to Gibson and Ryan but I could fill pages of the names of pitchers who were just as tough mentally and physically as both of them. I really didn't mean to imply for one second that their ability or desire to stay in any game over shadowed or outshone many many others who pitched during their time. I don't think JF would have faired any better if he had tried to take the ball out of "gentleman Jim's" hands either. Micro managing has come a long way as well.

[Bellhorn04]

All I'm saying is that there are reasons for pitch counts and yes they are a combination of health concerns and monetary concerns.

 

Billy Martin had a lot to do with this, I think, when in 1980 he took a good young pitching rotation and burnt them all to the ground.

[cp176]

All I'm saying is that there are reasons for pitch counts and yes they are a combination of health concerns and monetary concerns.

 

Billy Martin had a lot to do with this, I think, when in 1980 he took a good young pitching rotation and burnt them all to the ground.

 

No one is disagreeing with you. I do think that money, the extension of a season, the number of pitches that have been thrown by youngsters before they even get a shot all play pivotal roles in the development of arm problems. One trend that I think is very sad to see is the emphasis on the one spot athlete. The best ones I had a chance to work with participated in more than one. We all wanted a piece of the best ones though. It didn't hurt to have to wait for them. I think the trend toward participating in more than one season will be back and quite possibly we will see fewer over use injuries as well.

[a700hitter]

All I'm saying is that there are reasons for pitch counts and yes they are a combination of health concerns and monetary concerns.

 

Billy Martin had a lot to do with this, I think, when in 1980 he took a good young pitching rotation and burnt them all to the ground.

I don't think Billy Martin had anything to do with current pitch count restrictions. It didn't work out terribly for the A's. Most of those pitchers stayed in the majors for 8-10 years--a nice career. The A's used them up for sure, getting only a few really productive seasons from each of them. However, the A's payroll was about 12 cents and they were not going to sign any of these pitchers to big contracts. They used them up and didn't have to worry about the Yankees poaching them.

[S5Dewey]

No one is disagreeing with you. I do think that money, the extension of a season, the number of pitches that have been thrown by youngsters before they even get a shot all play pivotal roles in the development of arm problems. One trend that I think is very sad to see is the emphasis on the one spot athlete. The best ones I had a chance to work with participated in more than one. We all wanted a piece of the best ones though. It didn't hurt to have to wait for them. I think the trend toward participating in more than one season will be back and quite possibly we will see fewer over use injuries as well.

 

You truly are a man after my own heart. First of all, both the Principal's Assn in this state and American Legion baseball established pitch limits for pitchers starting in 2017 in an effort to curb pitching injuries. IMO the PA took action after a player threw 162 pitches in a State Championship game four days after throwing 136 pitches in the District Championship game. It was a change that needed to be made.

 

But to your point in your post here, I'm seeing more and more research being done about the affects of a player focusing on one sport rather than playing a different sport each season and there's pretty compelling evidence that those who focus on one sport have a higher injury incidence than those who diversify more.

[a700hitter]

But to your point in your post here, I'm seeing more and more research being done about the affects of a player focusing on one sport rather than playing a different sport each season and there's pretty compelling evidence that those who focus on one sport have a higher injury incidence than those who diversify more.

This makes sense to me. Playing other sports builds other muscles and helps the athlete's body develop more fully rather than putting all of the stress on a few sets of muscles.