2017 Rotation Discussion

[Nick]

Having Sale highlights inadequacy of pitchers we have on our staff.

 

As a coach, I always preach playing with since of urgency or having athletes with a 'motor' on the court/field.

Sale is epitome of that type of an athlete.

 

Compare that to Pomeranze. Oblivious to the pitch count. Not having a care as to how much the team needs him to go at least six innings. E Rod is following similar path. You can't nibble at the corners all night long. Man up.

 

For those that's convinced that we didn't need Sale, well I think you are dead wrong. He's a role model for rest of our pitching staff.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Nick

[moonslav59]

Can we let a couple of them get maybe 25 or so IP before we write them off?

 

Maybe even 50-60.

[Spudboy]

As I've said before, I'd be more than okay with what we paid for Sale if we hadn't traded so many prospects before the Sale trade.

 

Unfortunately the concern you voiced about DD when he was hired have been realized. I think he has spent too much on relievers ( I hate big$ contracts and particularly ones to relievers ) both in contracts and in prospect currency. Yeah, you can't keep them all and yes most of them never amount to much or flame out. Still, he has cast off most of this team's chips for a bunch or arms whose best days may be behind them or are just not worth it.

 

I'm not losing sleep about the 2021 cliff because I believe some useful talent currently in the system will manifest itself and there will be other draftees that bring some value.

 

But if the Sox do not win a WS in the next two or three years it will be seen as a failed effort chasing a tittle with a huge payroll and few native pieces to build further on.

 

Bailey, Hanrahan, Smith, Thornberg.....none of them has ever worked out to date. Spending big money on BP arms is mostly a waste of time and money when decent lower cost arms can be developed and sourced otherwise.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Spudboy

[Maxbialystock]

They don't "stink". They've just pitched like stink in small sample sizes.

 

Stink is in the present tense, so it applies. I sure as heck hope the sample size is small, but we don't know that.

[Maxbialystock]

Can we let a couple of them get maybe 25 or so IP before we write them off?

 

Who wrote them off? Not me. I said they stink because they do, but I certainly hope they don't stay that way.

[Maxbialystock]

I'm not going to defend Pomeranz when he struggles which he did a little today. I would say that he got pinched early and a couple of plays could have been made behind him and then who knows what might have happened but that is hindsight. Where the hell does your "great Pomeranz" s*** come from? I'm not above criticizing poor play but it only gets personal for me when someone has a bad attitude or just doesn't work. A 28 year old kid who cares and has some ability shouldn't have to be personally berated by anyone. Social media strikes again. thanks for stating some obvious numbers too. I'm sure the guys who posted them don't care at all. lol

 

What social media? Nobody comes here. right now pomeranz stinks, simple as that-- he gave up 5 runs, all earned, in 4.1 innings.

[Maxbialystock]

Maybe even 50-60.

 

We owe them nothing. There is a strong statistical correlation between pitchers who stink right now and games that are lost. Spring training is over, and these games count. Time for the rotation to man up.

[cp176]

What social media? Nobody comes here. right now pomeranz stinks, simple as that-- he gave up 5 runs, all earned, in 4.1 innings.

 

Silly me, I thought everybody came here. i still saw some positive in his effort. Double figures in K's and if runs could be considered just sort of earned, he had a few of those. I like the kid, I like his arm, and I like the trade. I knew we weren't getting Koufax when we made it.

[Fisk]

Silly me, I thought everybody came here. i still saw some positive in his effort. Double figures in K's and if runs could be considered just sort of earned, he had a few of those. I like the kid, I like his arm, and I like the trade. I knew we weren't getting Koufax when we made it.

 

10 strikeouts in 4 and a third innings shows you how good he can be.

[Bellhorn04]

Pomeranz has had 2 starts. He pitched extremely well in one of them. Yesterday he would have fared better if Benintendi had made that catch.

[cp176]

Pomeranz has had 2 starts. He pitched extremely well in one of them. Yesterday he would have fared better if Benintendi had made that catch.

 

He might have for sure but stuff happens. We know that. I was more upset with him not getting a few early calls than anything else. They could have gone either way. They didn't go his way. I just get upset when comments are made in general that relate to a person's character when we really don't know anything about him. My opinion is that it relates directly to the fact that some just didn't like the trade in general and thought that based on prospects rankings of a young pitcher we should have gotten more than Pomeranz in a trade. I'm ok with that. I don't agree with that opinion because I don't place as much value in prospects rankings with respect to what their future might become before they are 18 years old than some do. I would hate to think that a potentially good young ml pitcher gets victimized in Boston for things that he can't control. As an aside, i do think that Bradley might have made that catch but it still would have been a very good one.

[Bellhorn04]

He might have for sure but stuff happens. We know that. I was more upset with him not getting a few early calls than anything else. They could have gone either way. They didn't go his way. I just get upset when comments are made in general that relate to a person's character when we really don't know anything about him. My opinion is that it relates directly to the fact that some just didn't like the trade in general and thought that based on prospects rankings of a young pitcher we should have gotten more than Pomeranz in a trade. I'm ok with that. I don't agree with that opinion because I don't place as much value in prospects rankings with respect to what their future might become before they are 18 years old than some do. I would hate to think that a potentially good young ml pitcher gets victimized in Boston for things that he can't control. As an aside, i do think that Bradley might have made that catch but it still would have been a very good one.

 

Yeah, I didn't mean to trash Benintendi. I love the kid. And he ended up helping us come back and win.

 

I do think JBJ would have caught that. The main point is that sometimes the defense can have a big impact on what the pitcher's numbers end up looking like.

[Jack Flap]

Every guy in our rotation (Pomeranz included) has shown enough in the past not to be dismissed in 2-3 starts. We're barely into this thing.

[cp176]

Yeah, I didn't mean to trash Benintendi. I love the kid. And he ended up helping us come back and win.

 

I do think JBJ would have caught that. The main point is that sometimes the defense can have a big impact on what the pitcher's numbers end up looking like.

 

I didn't think that you trashed Benintendi at all. He is good and he will get better but bradley is a different breed of cat out there. he is clutch(lol). I agree with you!

[Jack Flap]

I'm not losing sleep about the 2021 cliff because I believe some useful talent currently in the system will manifest itself and there will be other draftees that bring some value.

I've been as critical of some of Dombrowski's moves as the next guy, but I have a hard time with this "cliff" concept. There are simply too many unknowns when you're trying to forecast the direction of a franchise 4-5+ years out into the future. We'll probably look very different than we do today, but I have a difficult time believing it's predestined that the Boston Red Sox are just going to go to s***.

[mvp 78]

I've been as critical of some of Dombrowski's moves as the next guy, but I have a hard time with this "cliff" concept. There are simply too many unknowns when you're trying to forecast the direction of a franchise 4-5+ years out into the future. We'll probably look very different than we do today, but I have a difficult time believing it's predestined that the Boston Red Sox are just going to go to s***.

 

Worrying about a cliff that is 4 years away is a very pessimistic view imo. How can anyone say the farm will be garbage and there will be nobody to call up when they have 4 years of drafting and IFAs? Mookie was drafted in 2011 and was in the show 3 years later. It's possible that the replacements for the guys that leave via FA aren't even in the organization right now.

[moonslav59]

Stink is in the present tense, so it applies. I sure as heck hope the sample size is small, but we don't know that.

 

Present tense does not include yesterday, or last week, or two weeks ago.

 

You chose to make you cut off on what counts just these last two starts to say they "stink". That's subjective.

 

They don't stink.

 

Thay have stunk for the last two weeks. I see a difference, but maybe it's just semantics.

[moonslav59]

I've been as critical of some of Dombrowski's moves as the next guy, but I have a hard time with this "cliff" concept. There are simply too many unknowns when you're trying to forecast the direction of a franchise 4-5+ years out into the future. We'll probably look very different than we do today, but I have a difficult time believing it's predestined that the Boston Red Sox are just going to go to s***.

 

Certainly trading away so many nationally, highly ranked prospects is going to affect the future 4+ years from now. By how much is up for debate.

 

It won't be easy to stay highly competitive into the extended future

[moonslav59]

Worrying about a cliff that is 4 years away is a very pessimistic view imo. How can anyone say the farm will be garbage and there will be nobody to call up when they have 4 years of drafting and IFAs? Mookie was drafted in 2011 and was in the show 3 years later. It's possible that the replacements for the guys that leave via FA aren't even in the organization right now.

 

I haven't heard one poster say our farm will be garbage, or we'll have nobody to call up.

 

Our future 4-5+ years out looks worse than it did before all these trades-- much worse.

 

Can we recover? Maybe- maybe not. One thing is for certain, the rules have changed making it harder to buy your way into acquiring the best young talent via international free agency and draft picks who slide down the draft due to "signability issues".

[mvp 78]

I haven't heard one poster say our farm will be garbage, or we'll have nobody to call up.

 

Our future 4-5+ years out looks worse than it did before all these trades-- much worse.

 

Can we recover? Maybe- maybe not. One thing is for certain, the rules have changed making it harder to buy your way into acquiring the best young talent via international free agency and draft picks who slide down the draft due to "signability issues".

 

You're basically saying the farm will be garbage with your post. Not sure what else to tell you Mr Gloomanddoom.

[Bellhorn04]

Our future 4-5+ years out looks worse than it did before all these trades-- much worse.

 

Can we recover? Maybe- maybe not.

 

1) No kidding.

 

2) What do you mean by recover - will we ever have a good team again?

 

Seriously, man, this stuff is really getting tiresome.

[mvp 78]

1) No kidding.

 

2) What do you mean by recover - will we ever have a good team again?

 

Seriously, man, this stuff is really getting tiresome.

 

On the bright side, the cliff is ONLY 4 years away. That means in 2022, we won't have to read about the cliff anymore as we'll already be in a burning heap.

[Maxbialystock]

Present tense does not include yesterday, or last week, or two weeks ago.

 

You chose to make you cut off on what counts just these last two starts to say they "stink". That's subjective.

 

They don't stink.

 

Thay have stunk for the last two weeks. I see a difference, but maybe it's just semantics.

 

Not semantics because I entirely agree with they have stunk but just might not stink right now. Today, for example, your genius prediction almost came true. You said Wright would go 7 and give up 2, but he only went 6 and might be responsible for 3 if Ross can't stop this rally.

[moonslav59]

Not semantics because I entirely agree with they have stunk but just might not stink right now. Today, for example, your genius prediction almost came true. You said Wright would go 7 and give up 2, but he only went 6 and might be responsible for 3 if Ross can't stop this rally.

 

Only 1 ER though, so I'll take 6 IP 1 ER over my projection of 7 IP 2 ER.

 

[moonslav59]

1) No kidding.

 

2) What do you mean by recover - will we ever have a good team again?

 

Seriously, man, this stuff is really getting tiresome.

 

I meant can we recover and be highly competitive from 4-6 years out.

 

It won't be easy, but I don't see us being bad, even if we lose Porcello, Bogey and Pomeranz.

[Maxbialystock]

Only 1 ER though, so I'll take 6 IP 1 ER over my projection of 7 IP 2 ER.

 

 

I don't mind saying it was a heckuva projection. Memorable.

[moonslav59]

I don't mind saying it was a heckuva projection. Memorable.

 

Wright has had many more good starts than bad. I just went with the odds.

 

I don't put much stock into a players last 2-3 starts as a guide to my expectations going forward.

 

He has a career QS% of 51, but last year it was 63%. It might have been higher had he not gotten injured.

 

Have faith in the guy. He's a good pitcher who happened to have a tough game last week.

[moonslav59]

As bad as our starters have looked as a whole, I don't think it's as bad as the starter ERA shows it is.

 

Sale has been "Chris Freakin' Sale": 2 great/1 very good

7 IP 0 ER

7.1 2 ER

7.0 1 ER

 

Porcello has not been great: 2 OK/1 horrific

6.1 3 ER

6.0 3 ER

4.1 8 ER

 

Wright:not really that bad: 1 very good, 1 OK, 1 horrific

6.2 4 ER

1.1 8 ER

6.0 1 ER

 

ERod has been okay: 1 good/1 bad

5.0 4 ER

5.1 2 ER

 

Pom has been okay: 1 very good/1 bad

6.0 1 ER

4.1 5 ER

 

Overall, we have a 54% QS%.

 

Starts:

2 Great

3 Very Good

1 Good

 

3 Okay

 

2 Bad

2 Horrific

 

-Or-

6 Good to Great

3 Okay

4 Bad to Horrific

 

Yeah, it's not the start we hoped for from this highly touted rotation, but it's not as bad as it looks. Those two starts with 8 ERs each hurts the numbers badly.

[Kimmi]

Having Sale highlights inadequacy of pitchers we have on our staff.

 

As a coach, I always preach playing with since of urgency or having athletes with a 'motor' on the court/field.

Sale is epitome of that type of an athlete.

 

Compare that to Pomeranze. Oblivious to the pitch count. Not having a care as to how much the team needs him to go at least six innings. E Rod is following similar path. You can't nibble at the corners all night long. Man up.

 

For those that's convinced that we didn't need Sale, well I think you are dead wrong. He's a role model for rest of our pitching staff.

 

You are making a lot of unfair assumptions about those pitchers.

 

Pretty much any pitcher is going to pale in comparison to Sale. Sale is an ace. The others are not, nor are they supposed to be.

 

Price is supposed to be an ace. He has paled in comparison to Sale so far. If Price does not do his part this year, then yes, we will absolutely have needed Sale.

[Kimmi]

Unfortunately the concern you voiced about DD when he was hired have been realized. I think he has spent too much on relievers ( I hate big$ contracts and particularly ones to relievers ) both in contracts and in prospect currency. Yeah, you can't keep them all and yes most of them never amount to much or flame out. Still, he has cast off most of this team's chips for a bunch or arms whose best days may be behind them or are just not worth it.

 

I'm not losing sleep about the 2021 cliff because I believe some useful talent currently in the system will manifest itself and there will be other draftees that bring some value.

 

But if the Sox do not win a WS in the next two or three years it will be seen as a failed effort chasing a tittle with a huge payroll and few native pieces to build further on.

 

Bailey, Hanrahan, Smith, Thornberg.....none of them has ever worked out to date. Spending big money on BP arms is mostly a waste of time and money when decent lower cost arms can be developed and sourced otherwise.

 

If we win a World Series within the next 3 years, then everything Dombrowski did will be worth it. If we don't, then let's hope the farm is replenished in the meantime to keep us competitive.

 

A lot can happen in 3 years. I'm willing to give Dombrowski the benefit of the doubt as far as saving us from the cliff goes, but regardless, I am not a fan of his modus operandi to date.