Clutch vs non-clutch

[Spudboy]

Personally I only have to go back a few weeks to see momentum as predictive. The 4th quarter of the super bowl.

 

Of course being the best team in the league helped.

[S5Dewey]

Personally I only have to go back a few weeks to see momentum as predictive. The 4th quarter of the super bowl.

 

Brady's performance in the 4th quarter? Completely random. Since neither momentum nor clutch can be explained statistically we have to assume that neither of them exist.

 

Brady is so damn good that any outstanding performance he has can be attributed to randomness and not momentum or being clutch. He occasionally goes on streaks like that. We Patriot fans are just fortunate that the randomness exhibited itself in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl.

[a700hitter]

Brady's performance in the 4th quarter? Completely random. Since neither momentum nor clutch can be explained statistically we have to assume that neither of them exist.

 

Brady is so damn good that any outstanding performance he has can be attributed to randomness and not momentum or being clutch. He occasionally goes on streaks like that. We Patriot fans are just fortunate that the randomness exhibited itself in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl.

Small Sample Size. He has probably only had 20 hot 4th quarters in the post season. Probably just randomness. LOL! Ryan wilted making stupid calls and taking stupid sacks. Brady was clutch as usual and dissected the defense.

[cp176]

No one said that.

 

Try and get past that part of the argument...

 

It is just so hard dealing with the brilliance in general. I think it pretty much is the unspoken implication.

[cp176]

Brady's performance in the 4th quarter? Completely random. Since neither momentum nor clutch can be explained statistically we have to assume that neither of them exist.

 

Brady is so damn good that any outstanding performance he has can be attributed to randomness and not momentum or being clutch. He occasionally goes on streaks like that. We Patriot fans are just fortunate that the randomness exhibited itself in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl.

 

Hey now - you know better . No one has ever said that if it can't be measured then it can't exist. At least that is what I have been told. Guys like us probably wouldn't recognize clutch and clutch moments even if they did exist. lol

[SoxnCycles]

Personally I only have to go back a few weeks to see momentum as predictive. The 4th quarter of the super bowl.

 

You see momentum, I see a team with a defense that was worn out.

Not to mention some moronic coaching decisions.

[Slasher9]

So any player who comes through in the clutch one time suddenly gains this ability as a repeatable skill?

 

no. not everyone. and you and i both know that hitting a baseball is a fail endeavor. you fail 7 out of 10 times and you are an All Star and make $20MM a year.

 

in the moment it is a clutch hit. what makes someone (Ortiz) a clutch hitter is that they have repeated the clutch hit.

[Slasher9]

Ifv we have to keep going to other sports, was Drew Bledsoe clutch or not?

 

Notin, i didnt say anyone on the patriots was "clutch". i was only referring to momentum when talking about football.

[Slasher9]

You see momentum, I see a team with a defense that was worn out.

Not to mention some moronic coaching decisions.

 

fair enough. i can agree that many will see it that way as well.

[SoxnCycles]

fair enough. i can agree that many will see it that way as well.

 

Don't get me wrong, what the Pats did in that game was unbelievable.

But, the Falcons certainly helped them out in the 4th quarter.

 

I think Kimmi has the right idea.

There are certainly clutch plays and clutch moments.

But, I don't think "clutch" is definable ability, limited to a few players.

Most good players have clutch moments.

Great players have a lot of them.

[User Name]

You see momentum, I see a team with a defense that was worn out.

Not to mention some moronic coaching decisions.

 

It was the Pats' strategy. Even the Falcons' D acknowledged it.

[Dojji]

Small Sample Size. He has probably only had 20 hot 4th quarters in the post season. Probably just randomness. LOL! Ryan wilted making stupid calls and taking stupid sacks. Brady was clutch as usual and dissected the defense.

 

I refuse to believe Matt Ryan is that stupid. He was pretty damn clutch in BC. Reports circulating that he was screaming at his coach over some of the playcalling late in the game, but Shannahan overruled him.

[notin]

Brady's performance in the 4th quarter? Completely random. Since neither momentum nor clutch can be explained statistically we have to assume that neither of them exist.

 

Brady is so damn good that any outstanding performance he has can be attributed to randomness and not momentum or being clutch. He occasionally goes on streaks like that. We Patriot fans are just fortunate that the randomness exhibited itself in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl.

 

In baseball, you always throw out there thr other factors involved. But nit in football?

 

If Edelman doesn't mske what was probably the most spectacular catch in Super Bowl history, the Patriots probably don't tie that game. As that ball was obviously defensible, if it hits the ground and the Pats lose, is Brady still clutch?

[notin]

Notin, i didnt say anyone on the patriots was "clutch". i was only referring to momentum when talking about football.

 

Not the point.

 

Bledsoe was a guy the fans and media always labeled as "couldn't win big games." Outside of lazy sportswriting, I'm not sure why. He won an ARC championship game. He relieved Brady in the another one in Pittsburgh and took the team down field for their only offensive touchdown, which sent the Patriots to what would be the first Super Bowl title in team history.

 

But his label was always "can't win big games." Probably because his offensive line failed him massively in thr second half of his only Super Bowl appearance.

 

So is Bledsoe's inability to win big games real or a media-driven label that got repeated too often?

[a700hitter]

In baseball, you always throw out there thr other factors involved. But nit in football?

 

If Edelman doesn't mske what was probably the most spectacular catch in Super Bowl history, the Patriots probably don't tie that game. As that ball was obviously defensible, if it hits the ground and the Pats lose, is Brady still clutch?

Yes

[a700hitter]

Are you saying that because it is not measurable than you do not think that it exists?

That is the basis of their argument.

[Slasher9]

In baseball, you always throw out there thr other factors involved. But nit in football?

 

If Edelman doesn't mske what was probably the most spectacular catch in Super Bowl history, the Patriots probably don't tie that game. As that ball was obviously defensible, if it hits the ground and the Pats lose, is Brady still clutch?

 

it wasnt a fourth down play. TB12 probably hits White for a 15 yarder on the next play......

[Slasher9]

Not the point.

 

Bledsoe was a guy the fans and media always labeled as "couldn't win big games." Outside of lazy sportswriting, I'm not sure why. He won an ARC championship game. He relieved Brady in the another one in Pittsburgh and took the team down field for their only offensive touchdown, which sent the Patriots to what would be the first Super Bowl title in team history.

 

But his label was always "can't win big games." Probably because his offensive line failed him massively in thr second half of his only Super Bowl appearance.

 

So is Bledsoe's inability to win big games real or a media-driven label that got repeated too often?

 

sorry, i never heard that label on Bledoe so wont comment on it. i know that the 96 super bowl he played pretty darn well. if not for a kickoff return for a TD (that changed the momentum) i 100% believe the Patriots would have won that game.

football is such a team sport it is hard to label anyone "clutch". i would refer to a kicker or a FG as "clutch". but it's not like baseball where a batter is on an island to himself and can let his "clutchness" shine.....

[Slasher9]

Don't get me wrong, what the Pats did in that game was unbelievable.

But, the Falcons certainly helped them out in the 4th quarter.

 

I think Kimmi has the right idea.

There are certainly clutch plays and clutch moments.

But, I don't think "clutch" is definable ability, limited to a few players.

Most good players have clutch moments.

Great players have a lot of them.

 

for the most part i agree with this 100%. i just happen to label those that have a lot of them as "clutch".

[notin]

it wasnt a fourth down play. TB12 probably hits White for a 15 yarder on the next play......

 

While I agree I can't say the Patriots would have lost if thst ball had hit the ground, you also don't get to define Brady as clutch based on plays that never happened.

 

It was simply a great all around team effort (including Brady) with other factors involved. ..

[a700hitter]

While I agree I can't say the Patriots would have lost if thst ball had hit the ground, you also don't get to define Brady as clutch based on plays that never happened.

 

It was simply a great all around team effort (including Brady) with other factors involved. ..

And you diminish the plays that happened as luck.

[Slasher9]

While I agree I can't say the Patriots would have lost if thst ball had hit the ground, you also don't get to define Brady as clutch based on plays that never happened.

 

It was simply a great all around team effort (including Brady) with other factors involved. ..

i never called TB12 clutch. i simply stated that the patriots had momentum in the 4th quarter.

[notin]

And you diminish the plays that happened as luck.

 

No I didn't.

 

I credited Edelman with the most spectacular catch in SB history. That's hardly calling it luck. I just didn't credit Brady for that play, which isn't the same thing as calling it luck.

 

They were lucky Atlanta' OC never said "Let's just run the ball a couple times and kick a safe field goal." But I didn't discuss that...

[a700hitter]

No I didn't.

 

I credited Edelman with the most spectacular catch in SB history. That's hardly calling it luck. I just didn't credit Brady for that play, which isn't the same thing as calling it luck.

 

They were lucky Atlanta' OC never said "Let's just run the ball a couple times and kick a safe field goal." But I didn't discuss that...

By not crediting Brady for the play, you were calling it luck for Brady. You are really parsing your words.

[S5Dewey]

In baseball, you always throw out there thr other factors involved. But nit in football?

 

If Edelman doesn't mske what was probably the most spectacular catch in Super Bowl history, the Patriots probably don't tie that game. As that ball was obviously defensible, if it hits the ground and the Pats lose, is Brady still clutch?

 

If Brady hits a player right in the hands and the player drops it is Brady not clutch?

[notin]

If Brady hits a player right in the hands and the player drops it is Brady not clutch?

 

Well no one called Brady clutch when Weller didn't catch that pass in the Super Bowl against the Giants...

[notin]

By not crediting Brady for the play, you were calling it luck for Brady. You are really parsing your words.

 

That play was definitely Edelman bailing out Brady. Are you saying it was anything else?

[S5Dewey]

Well no one called Brady clutch when Weller didn't catch that pass in the Super Bowl against the Giants...

 

That begs the question. Did anyone say Brady wasn't clutch when Weller didn't catch the pass?

[notin]

That begs the question. Did anyone say Brady wasn't clutch when Weller didn't catch the pass?

 

Actually it doesn't beg that question.

 

But I do know that no one (except a few people on this board) watched this year's Super Bowl and said "Wow! That was an amazing comeback by Tom Brady! This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt thst certain baseball players can gain extra skills and exceed their normal performance level repeatedly when key games are on the line!"

[Slasher9]

Notin, i'm not sure how this turned into TB12 and whether or not he is considered "clutch". i simply used the 4th quarter of the super bowl as an example of "momentum" after i had asked kimmi if she believed in momentum. this really is a separate discussion than "clutch". again, personally i can only grant a FG kicker "clutch" in football. every other position requires 10 other men.

as for Tom Brady...at least we can all agree that he is the greatest of all time. of that, there is no further discussion required.