2017 Rotation

[Dojji]

It was Wright or Pomeranz I believe.

 

So Wright or a guy you already knew was slightly damaged.... yeah, Farrell made a defensible call there.

[Bellhorn04]

Well, if we're going to rehash that once again, leaving Papi in to run for himself was also an option. Farrell didn't run for him when he reached first base, not until he reached second base. I know that's sort of a standard procedure but in this case I'm not sure it made sense to put in a guy who had never been on base in a major league game.

[Dojji]

Except that we know that Papi had had pain problems with his feet and ankles all that year, and that his lower body was basically a complete mess. Once that piece is in place, pinching for him makes a lot more sense

 

If Farrell could tell that Papi was in trouble, he had to get him off the bases because we needed that bat all year. If Papi was signalling get-me-out-of-here, or it was clear to Farrell that he was on borrowed time with Papi's creaky wheels, then it was time to make whatever move he could to keep Papi in the lineup every day.

 

As much as I loved what Wright did for us this year, him getting hurt hurt us less when it happened than if Papi had had to take any length of time off with ankle issues.

[notin]

So Wright or a guy you already knew was slightly damaged.... yeah, Farrell made a defensible call there.

 

 

I did prefer Pomeranz for the pinch running role because he had more experience. The Padres even used him as one earlier that season.

 

But people do make way too big of a deal of the decision to use Wright. A lot of managerial critics live in the realm of " that's not what I would have done and he needs to be fired for it!"

[cp176]

I did prefer Pomeranz for the pinch running role because he had more experience. The Padres even used him as one earlier that season.

 

But people do make way too big of a deal of the decision to use Wright. A lot of managerial critics live in the realm of " that's not what I would have done and he needs to be fired for it!"

 

Not to mention the fact that Pomeranz is younger and actually looks to be in better shape. Of course Farrell was responsible for putting Wright in the game - thus I guess in some people's minds he has to be responsible for the injury. I'm sitting here thinking that Wright knows who is responsible for him getting hurt when he attempted to go back to the bag . It was not an unusual move by any means even though it has given Farrell dislikers some more fodder the cannon. Farrell can take it!

[moonslav59]

Which also means, on the flip side, that the postseason numbers of Papi and Schilling have no great relevance to their stature as players.

 

I never claimed small sample sizes have NO relevance. I just don't make definitive judgments about a person or player based on tiny scattered sample sizes.

 

Also, the question at hand was about adding 2-3 great starts to Price's sample size to possibly change his designation (by others not me) as a "choke". Price has 9 GS'd in the playoffs with 55 IP as a starter. Let's say 3 more starts at 7 IP each, he'd be at about 75 IP and 12 career playoff starts.

 

Schilling has 19 career starts and over 133 IP in the playoffs. That's almost double the IP sample size Price would be at after 3 more starts. I still think 133 IP and 19 scattered starts over a 15 year period is still not enough to make a definitive judgment, but it's a hell of a lot close to a legitimate sample size than Price's. Also, not making a definitive judgement does mean I'm not okay with saying, "Schilling has done a great job as a playoff pitcher."

 

David Ortiz has played in 85 playoff games. I would not definitively judge any player over a half season's worth of games, especially scattered over several years. Papi has done great. I've never seen a player deliver in the clutch more than him. Having a slightly higher playoffs OPS than regular season OPS is not easy over 369 PAs. In no way am I taking anything away from his achievements by saying his sample size is still small. He's done great. That greatness was enormously important and essential to our championships. Sample size arguments do not deny great accomplishments or poor performances. Sample sizes are just part of the context.

 

Papi was great. Schill was great. Price has been pretty bad. Nobody is denying that. My beef comes when someone wants to call Price a choke, basically judging his mental make-up, based on just 9 starts scattered over several years.

[jacksonianmarch]

Slav, all you need to know about Price's PO failure was in his twitter feed on his trip to Hawaii. He said he couldn't lose a playoff game there. It's in his head. Until he proves he isn't a total lemon in the PO's, he's a liability

[Bellhorn04]

Papi was great. Schill was great. Price has been pretty bad. Nobody is denying that. My beef comes when someone wants to call Price a choke, basically judging his mental make-up, based on just 9 starts scattered over several years.

 

Part of it is mystification. Price is a guy you expect to pitch well every time out. He also seems like a cool and unflappable guy. At the very least it's strange he hasn't come out and dominated in his playoff starts.

[Kimmi]

So they can't be compared at all, really - truly apples and oranges.

 

I disagree. The contracts can most certainly be compared.

 

Which deal has more risk? A one year deal @ $13 mil or a 7 year deal @ $217 mil? IMO, that question can be answered pretty much regardless of who the players are, and it's not even a close decision. The amount of risk involved in a contract is a significant part of whether the contract is a good one or not. Obviously it's not the only factor, but it's a significant factor.

 

My main point is that Buchholz' option was only for one year. And it was for a reasonable amount on top of that. It was a good deal to make. So good, in fact, that it was a no brainer last year.

[Kimmi]

Except that we know that Papi had had pain problems with his feet and ankles all that year, and that his lower body was basically a complete mess. Once that piece is in place, pinching for him makes a lot more sense

 

If Farrell could tell that Papi was in trouble, he had to get him off the bases because we needed that bat all year. If Papi was signalling get-me-out-of-here, or it was clear to Farrell that he was on borrowed time with Papi's creaky wheels, then it was time to make whatever move he could to keep Papi in the lineup every day.

 

As much as I loved what Wright did for us this year, him getting hurt hurt us less when it happened than if Papi had had to take any length of time off with ankle issues.

 

If Farrell had left Papi in the game and Papi injured himself trying to score from second, there would have been a lot of criticism towards Farrell for not sending in a pinch runner. Pinch running for Papi once he reached second base was the right call. I can agree that Pomeranz was probably a better choice, but it's not one of those choices where one option was light years better than the other.

 

Regardless, Farrell does not deserve the blame for Wright's injury. It's just one of those things.

[Kimmi]

Which also means, on the flip side, that the postseason numbers of Papi and Schilling have no great relevance to their stature as players.

 

Papi and Schilling are great postseason players because they are great players, period. In the eyes of the fans, postseason performances stand out more than regular season performances for obvious reasons. So for the fans, it does add to their stature.

 

Statistically speaking, however, their postseason stats shouldn't be given any more weight than their regular season stats.

[Bellhorn04]

I disagree. The contracts can most certainly be compared.

 

Which deal has more risk? A one year deal @ $13 mil or a 7 year deal @ $217 mil? IMO, that question can be answered pretty much regardless of who the players are, and it's not even a close decision. The amount of risk involved in a contract is a significant part of whether the contract is a good one or not. Obviously it's not the only factor, but it's a significant factor.

 

My main point is that Buchholz' option was only for one year. And it was for a reasonable amount on top of that. It was a good deal to make. So good, in fact, that it was a no brainer last year.

 

I really don't get this. There will always be more risk in signing good players because you have to pay them more and for longer. That's a given. You can keep risk to a minimum by signing inferior players on the cheap, but your team won't be very good.

[Bellhorn04]

I've said all along that I was fine with picking up Buch's option. But he really didn't do much to prove his doubters wrong this year. He pitched some decent games at the end but for most of the year he was horrible. And he was one of the reasons we had to trade for Pomeranz.

[moonslav59]

Slav, all you need to know about Price's PO failure was in his twitter feed on his trip to Hawaii. He said he couldn't lose a playoff game there. It's in his head. Until he proves he isn't a total lemon in the PO's, he's a liability

 

Again, I've never said he's not a choke or that his losses might be a result of tightening up when it matters.

 

My point is the sample size is too small to call anyone a choke.

 

One could view that tweet as a sign of him being able to joke about it, and having a relaxed outlook.

[Slasher9]

Until he proves me wrong he is a chocker and wilts in the spotlight. I pray to god he proves me wrong as he will be tying up a significant percentage of our annual payroll for the next 6 seasons.

[Slasher9]

The whining about Price has become an auto-trigger for me.

 

The whining about whiners has become an auto-trigger for me.

[Slasher9]

Some folks don't pay as much attention to the money and the value aspects of contracts, they just thought Price was an elite pitcher and Clay was Mr. Unreliable. Which is true if you overlook the money factors.

 

If you redacted their names in their postseason stats would you know who is elite pitcher and who is Mr. Unreliable?

[Kimmi]

I really don't get this. There will always be more risk in signing good players because you have to pay them more and for longer. That's a given. You can keep risk to a minimum by signing inferior players on the cheap, but your team won't be very good.

 

I am not suggesting that we only sign inferior players for cheap. I was just saying that I don't understand the opinion that Clay's option was not worth the $13 mil risk but that Price's enormous contract was a good deal. That was not meant to be a knock on Price or on Dombrowski for signing Price.

[Bellhorn04]

I am not suggesting that we only sign inferior players for cheap. I was just saying that I don't understand the opinion that Clay's option was not worth the $13 mil risk but that Price's enormous contract was a good deal. That was not meant to be a knock on Price or on Dombrowski for signing Price.

 

Some people just didn't trust Clay because of his history and thought there were better options out there. Their doubts turned out to be well-founded. I would assume he was a negative-WAR player most of the year. With some good games at the end he managed to eke out a 0.2 bWAR and a 0.5 fWAR.

[Bellhorn04]

If you redacted their names in their postseason stats would you know who is elite pitcher and who is Mr. Unreliable?

 

Price's postseason numbers stink and I keep saying so. (Buch's are nothing special either.)

 

Price at least is a guy who gets you to the playoffs. He's been doing that consistently.

[Kimmi]

Some people just didn't trust Clay because of his history and thought there were better options out there. Their doubts turned out to be well-founded. I would assume he was a negative-WAR player most of the year. With some good games at the end he managed to eke out a 0.2 bWAR and a 0.5 fWAR.

 

I can understand not trusting Clay. I don't trust Clay. But I know the potential is there, and even if he doesn't pitch a full season, he has a good chance of being worth $13 million.

 

Just as I have said about Porcello's contract that even if he pitched like crap for the entire 4 years, I would do that extension every time, the same holds for Clay's option. It's well worth the risk.

[User Name]

The whining about whiners has become an auto-trigger for me.

 

Because you're the king of whiners.

[Jack Flap]

Price's postseason numbers stink and I keep saying so. (Buch's are nothing special either.)

 

Price at least is a guy who gets you to the playoffs. He's been doing that consistently.

 

Agreed...like I've said before, give me the most talented roster to get through the regular season with, and I'll be able to go into October with confidence every time. I know it's popular to think of the postseason as an entity all to its own, but putting as much emphasis on 3.1 innings out of 230+ last year (or Price's 66.2 career playoff innings spread out over nearly a decade) as some people do is simply silly.

 

Everyone is aware of Price's postseason stats and would like to see him pitch better...and my guess would be that no one is more keenly aware of this than him. I just don't see the need to continually harp on it in every thread, or hound him about it on social media the way some fans apparently do. (I remember reading after we acquired Sale that he doesn't have a Twitter account...probably wise on his part.)

[Dojji]

We're really our own worst enemies aren't we? We get pie in the sky expectations for whatever top talent the ownership brings in, and then go absolutely insane when they deliver less than absolute perfection, and then we make it out like it's the player's own fault that we expected more than human beings are capable of, and wind up alienating the best talent money can buy. And then we keep doing it over and over again.

 

Inasmuch as fan influence makes it harder to operate in Boston as a player who is not perfection incarnate (which is all of them) I have to say quite frankly that we as fans have a tendency to sabotage the very team we root for, and we need to freaking stop.

[Slasher9]

Because you're the king of whiners.

 

was there a vote? oh wait...being king is a bloodline thing. nevermind. now do my bidding peasant.

[moonslav59]

We're really our own worst enemies aren't we? We get pie in the sky expectations for whatever top talent the ownership brings in, and then go absolutely insane when they deliver less than absolute perfection, and then we make it out like it's the player's own fault that we expected more than human beings are capable of, and wind up alienating the best talent money can buy. And then we keep doing it over and over again.

 

Inasmuch as fan influence makes it harder to operate in Boston as a player who is not perfection incarnate (which is all of them) I have to say quite frankly that we as fans have a tendency to sabotage the very team we root for, and we need to freaking stop.

 

We fans do make it difficult for any struggling stars to want to stick around town, but Price started out so poorly last year, I think the perception of a big let down got firmly planted in many fans' brains.

 

He had a 6.00 ERA after 8 starts. Much of that had to do with an 8 ER in 3.2 IP start vs TB, but he also had 3 other starts with 5 or more ERs in that stretch.

 

It took him to game 12 to get under 5.00. He was still over 4.50 on July 28th.

 

Unfortunately, perception is a big part of fans' attitudes. You're right though, I think if we cut these guys a little more slack, maybe more players would want to come to Boston.

 

I won't even get into the argument about whether added pressure from the fans and media actually makes it harder for some players to recover from a slump.

[Slasher9]

you guys make it sound like players turn down $$$$ to stay away from Boston. that's a joke, right? you are being funny? players will go to whomever pays the most $$$$. name 1 player that turned down a Boston contract to play elsewhere for less money?

and i thought i made wacky ascertions.....

[Slasher9]

i have an idea. when you sign one of the alltime biggest FA contracts for a starting pitcher dont come out and suck for the first 2 or 3 months of your 7 year contract. i know, i know. that is really asking a lot. let me save you the time for all the excuses.

he needs to acclimate.

he needs to get used to the ballpark.

BABIP!

throwback uniforms

too much media!

so many rabid fans!

JFC this feels like postseason atmosphere and it's only April! wilt.

[moonslav59]

you guys make it sound like players turn down $$$$ to stay away from Boston. that's a joke, right? you are being funny? players will go to whomever pays the most $$$$. name 1 player that turned down a Boston contract to play elsewhere for less money?

and i thought i made wacky ascertions.....

 

I remember Barry Bonds saying he wouldn't even talk with Boston when he was a FA.

[Dojji]

you guys make it sound like players turn down $$$$ to stay away from Boston.

 

I firmly believe this has happened in a small minority of cases. There's also players who would have improved this team that we judt didn't even go after because of their reputation for fragility. Not the best example given his performance last season but Zack Greinke springs to mind.