Sox get Sale

[Bellhorn04]

We're good for 4-5 years and we're worried about what's beyond that? Now I have to invoke the words of 700's mother (and my wife as well): 'Don't borrow trouble.' There's nothing any of us can do about it anyway.

 

As long is JH is alive and owns this franchise we should be in good shape.

 

Also: Dombrowski supposedly left the Tigers decimated after their 4-year run, but after one bad year they almost made the playoffs again this year.

[Hugh2]

I wouldn't say we ARE going to pay because we never truly know how things will transpire but I would say that odds that we pay down the road have significantly increased.

[Emp9]

With all due respect, we've drafted like crap after the 15th pick for 11 years, and you want to pin your hopes on things changing radically to the good.

 

Trade for young players? With what? Pablo?

 

There's no freakin way we rebuild the farm to 1/4th of what it was in just 3-4 years.

 

Times have changed.

 

We are going to be great for 3-4- maybe 5 years, but we are going to pay someday for what DD did.

 

I'm happy with the choices made, but I'm not going to pretend all will be fine in 4-5 years.

 

 

That's when we fire DD and hire BC back or maybe Theo by that time? (Larry's gone now anyway).

[Hugh2]

Us fans who don't plan on dying in 52 weeks have every right to be excited about this team next year and worry about the future impact of decisions made today.

 

If you have all your money invested in J.P. Morgan wouldn't you be concerned with the long term outlook of the companies performance?

 

We might not be shareholders as fans but we are stake holders. To each their own, but don't tell us how to root, we can care about today and tomorrow and you can care just about today. That's the beautiful thing about being a fan, you can love the team and if you want you can love everything else that comes with it from the business side to team building side to the development side.

 

To each there own.

[Nick]

With all due respect, we've drafted like crap after the 15th pick for 11 years, and you want to pin your hopes on things changing radically to the good.

 

Trade for young players? With what? Pablo?

 

There's no freakin way we rebuild the farm to 1/4th of what it was in just 3-4 years.

 

Times have changed.

 

We are going to be great for 3-4- maybe 5 years, but we are going to pay someday for what DD did.

 

I'm happy with the choices made, but I'm not going to pretend all will be fine in 4-5 years.

 

 

You of all people wanted Sale. Now we have him. Which is it? Did you think we were going to get him for NOTHING? If baffles for me. You've been on both sides.

 

WE DON'T HAVE TO REBUILD THE ENTIRE f***ING FARM SYSTEM. YOU THINK DD IS A f***ING MORAN? YOU NEED HIGH CEILING GUYS TO FILL IN. NOT ALL 9 POSITION SPOTS WILL OPEN UP AT ONCE. WE ARE RED SOX. I'M PRETTY CONFIDENT DD WILL PUT A COMPETITIVE TEAM OUT THERE AS LONG AS HE'S DIRECTING THE TEAM.

[moonslav59]

We're good for 4-5 years and we're worried about what's beyond that? Now I have to invoke the words of 700's mother (and my wife as well): 'Don't borrow trouble.' There's nothing any of us can do about it anyway.

 

As long is JH is alive and owns this franchise we should be in good shape.

 

Also: Dombrowski supposedly left the Tigers decimated after their 4-year run, but after one bad year they almost made the playoffs again this year.

 

So, now almost making the playoffs is okay?

 

Let's see how they do the next 2-3 years.

[moonslav59]

I wouldn't say we ARE going to pay because we never truly know how things will transpire but I would say that odds that we pay down the road have significantly increased.

 

These trades are going to make a difference down the road. To what extent may be up for debate, but a price will be paid.

 

I'm not sitting here crying over the long term future, but I did like the idea of winning for a whole decade.

[Nick]

Us fans who don't plan on dying in 52 weeks have every right to be excited about this team next year and worry about the future impact of decisions made today.

 

If you have all your money invested in J.P. Morgan wouldn't you be concerned with the long term outlook of the companies performance?

 

We might not be shareholders as fans but we are stake holders. To each their own, but don't tell us how to root, we can care about today and tomorrow and you can care just about today. That's the beautiful thing about being a fan, you can love the team and if you want you can love everything else that comes with it from the business side to team building side to the development side.

 

To each there own.

 

Some fans want EVETYTHING. Win now and also wants a guaranty 10 years from now.

 

You should bury your money in the back yard and get rid of your dog if you don't want to take any risks.

[Hugh2]

We're good for 4-5 years and we're worried about what's beyond that? Now I have to invoke the words of 700's mother (and my wife as well): 'Don't borrow trouble.' There's nothing any of us can do about it anyway.

 

As long is JH is alive and owns this franchise we should be in good shape.

 

Also: Dombrowski supposedly left the Tigers decimated after their 4-year run, but after one bad year they almost made the playoffs again this year.

 

What if you could do the same thing without mortgaging the future?

 

Would you rather have a 25% chance of winning the world series every year for 4 years or a 20% chance of winning it every for 10?

 

^^^^obviously made up stats to make a point.

 

Not saying I'm right or you're wrong, but that is how someone like me looks at it.

[Bellhorn04]

So, now almost making the playoffs is okay?

 

Let's see how they do the next 2-3 years.

 

Oh sure, keep pushing it out-now it's a 7 year window or more we're talking about.

[Hugh2]

Some fans want EVETYTHING. Win now and also wants a guaranty 10 years from now.

 

You should bury your money in the back yard and get rid of your dog if you don't want to take any risks.

 

Well I don't have a dog, and you still run the risk of seeing your cash lose value to inflation or being stolen if you bury it in the ground.

 

Also, again...not liking a few trades isn't analogous with hating all trades and not taking on risk. I never said all that and most have not.

[Bellhorn04]

What if you could do the same thing without mortgaging the future?

 

Would you rather have a 25% chance of winning the world series every year for 4 years or a 20% chance of winning it every for 10?

 

^^^^obviously made up stats to make a point.

 

Not saying I'm right or you're wrong, but that is how someone like me looks at it.

 

I think it's impossible to build a team that has a 20% chance of winning it every year for 10 consecutive years. I think that falls under pie in the sky. Just my opinion too of course.

[moonslav59]

You of all people wanted Sale. Now we have him. Which is it? Did you think we were going to get him for NOTHING? If baffles for me. You've been on both sides.

 

WE DON'T HAVE TO REBUILD THE ENTIRE f***ING FARM SYSTEM. YOU THINK DD IS A f***ING MORAN? YOU NEED HIGH CEILING GUYS TO FILL IN. NOT ALL 9 POSITION SPOTS WILL OPEN UP AT ONCE. WE ARE RED SOX. I'M PRETTY CONFIDENT DD WILL PUT A COMPETITIVE TEAM OUT THERE AS LONG AS HE'S DIRECTING THE TEAM.

 

It baffles me that you guys think we can trade away so much incredibly highly ranked youth and think it's not going to affect the future or will by just a little bit.

 

It's not hypocritical to love the deals we made, but recognize them for what they are: we sacrificed a big chunk of the future for a bigger chance at winning in the next 3 years.

 

I'm fine with it, but that doesn't mean I have to deny the downside of the plan.

 

I never said we're going to be in last place in 5 years, but these trades are going to matter someday.

 

I'm hoping we win 2 rings, would be happy with one. It's worth it to me.

 

It's not a complicated position to hold. I loved the trade.

 

I've spent 40 years suggesting trades just like this one from dorm rooms to water coolers to sports blogs.

[Hugh2]

I think it's impossible to build a team that has a 20% chance of winning it every year for 10 consecutive years. I think that falls under pie in the sky. Just my opinion too of course.

 

Well, as I said I was making up stats to prove a greater point. I think that's probably an impossible or close to impossible thing to quantify. Want 18% for 7? or maybe 37% for 2? Point is, there is real value in having a competitive team that can stay competitive for a larger number of consecutive years. Because it's not always the best team to win it all, often it is the good team that gets hot at the end of the year.

 

FTR, I'm not against trading prospects, and I really like the Sale deal. I just dislike the overall reality of trading so much of our farm in it's totality over the last year. I personally think you need balance, I don't want to say we shouldn't ever trade our prospects and be willing to empty the farm a little, but we shouldn't go from full to empty, I'd be more comfortable with full to 1/2 full.

[Hugh2]

It baffles me that you guys think we can trade away so much incredibly highly ranked youth and think it's not going to affect the future or will by just a little bit.

 

It's not hypocritical to love the deals we made, but recognize them for what they are: we sacrificed a big chunk of the future for a bigger chance at winning in the next 3 years.

 

I'm fine with it, but that doesn't mean I have to deny the downside of the plan.

 

I never said we're going to be in last place in 5 years, but these trades are going to matter someday.

 

I'm hoping we win 2 rings, would be happy with one. It's worth it to me.

 

It's not a complicated position to hold. I loved the trade.

 

I've spent 40 years suggesting trades just like this one from dorm rooms to water coolers to sports blogs.

 

These were the same type of people who at some point wanted to trade Bogaerts, Betts, JBJ, Swihart, Barnes, Owens.

[Bellhorn04]

I honestly believe everyone who posts on this forum understands that we're not going to have as good a farm for years to come as we did before all these moves.

[Hugh2]

I honestly believe everyone who posts on this forum understands that we're not going to have as good a farm for years to come as we did before all these moves.

 

And I think many of us also understand we won't need as deep a farm for the next 2-3 years.

[Bellhorn04]

These were the same type of people who at some point wanted to trade Bogaerts, Betts, JBJ, Swihart, Barnes, Owens.

 

There really weren't many people who ever wanted to trade the B's. The situation was different. We needed an infusion of young talent badly. Now the infusion has taken place and we need to focus on winning titles with that talent.

[moonslav59]

Oh sure, keep pushing it out-now it's a 7 year window or more we're talking about.

 

I've always said 4-7 years. I think we will be competitive in 4 years- maybe 5, but not highly compeitive, unless we do things we haven't done in 11 years- like draft someone great in the 15-35 slot area or find a couple of the next Betts or Rizzos with 2 in 11 odds.

 

I'm not predicting it will happen, and I doubt it does, but if we finish in last place in 3 out of 4 years like we did with Ben, I'll bet a million dollars 90% of this board will be roasting DD for not having a long term vision. (The same way they roasted Ben for having a f***ed up short term vision.)

[Hugh2]

There really weren't many people who ever wanted to trade the B's. The situation was different. We needed an infusion of young talent badly. Now the infusion has taken place and we need to focus on winning titles with that talent.

 

Agreed, if you're in last place you have every right to hoard prospects. If you are in first and have a loaded farm it makes sense to strengthen the big club.

 

I'm at level excited yet concerned right now. If DD trades Devers and Groome next year I'll be at level pissed.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not predicting it will happen, and I doubt it does, but if we finish in last place in 3 out of 4 years like we did with Ben, I'll bet a million dollars 90% of this board will be roasting DD for not having a long term vision. (The same way they roasted Ben for having a f***ed up short term vision.)

 

Even if it does come to that, so what? Half of what happens on message boards is complaining regardless. That'll never change. Besides, you'll be able to tell them that they're hypocritical, flip-flopping clowns.

[cp176]

I honestly believe everyone who posts on this forum understands that we're not going to have as good a farm for years to come as we did before all these moves.

 

You are very much right. i can only speak for myself but seems to me that the suggestion is that if I think that the red sox might find a way to get over and around the loss of these highly touted prospects, then i just don't know what I am talking about. If I can't accept the fact that DD has nothing more in mind than winning in the upcoming 3 year window with no regard for the future, then I just don't get it. We all understand that trading good prospects will indeed have an effect on our farm. Some sort of reaction follows most actions. To date, all of his moves have been made with regard to making our team stronger. I have no reason to doubt that any future obstacles that we face will not be dealt with in a way that keeps our team solid and competitive well in to the future.

[moonslav59]

And I think many of us also understand we won't need as deep a farm for the next 2-3 years.

 

Devers should replace Pablo, Moreland or HanRam.

 

Travis could replace Moreland or HanRam.

 

Groome may someday replace Pom or Porcello.

 

We're not doomed.

 

My point is losing Moncada, Espi, Margot, Kopech and a ton of others who combined will probably produce another 2 significant ML talents was what was going to infuse cheap talent into roster for the next 2-8 of 9 years. It's going to make a hell of a difference especially once the years of service from the guys we got are up.

 

I'm sure Henry will make sure we stay competitive, but without ready youth at his disposal, we run the risk of having a few poor finishes bunched up together.... like we did under Ben recently before his farm got a chance to mature.

 

If we are going to rely on free agency to carry us from years 4 to 7, good luck with that.

[moonslav59]

Even if it does come to that, so what? Half of what happens on message boards is complaining regardless. That'll never change. Besides, you'll be able to tell them that they're hypocritical, flip-flopping clowns.

 

They'll be leading the dump DD brigade pretending they said all along DD "overpaid" back in the day.

[cp176]

I've always said 4-7 years. I think we will be competitive in 4 years- maybe 5, but not highly compeitive, unless we do things we haven't done in 11 years- like draft someone great in the 15-35 slot area or find a couple of the next Betts or Rizzos with 2 in 11 odds.

 

I'm not predicting it will happen, and I doubt it does, but if we finish in last place in 3 out of 4 years like we did with Ben, I'll bet a million dollars 90% of this board will be roasting DD for not having a long term vision. (The same way they roasted Ben for having a f***ed up short term vision.)

 

 

stop cussing - that is not characteristic of you - plus don't be suggesting million dollar bets - someone might accept.

[moonslav59]

You are very much right. i can only speak for myself but seems to me that the suggestion is that if I think that the red sox might find a way to get over and around the loss of these highly touted prospects, then i just don't know what I am talking about. If I can't accept the fact that DD has nothing more in mind than winning in the upcoming 3 year window with no regard for the future, then I just don't get it. We all understand that trading good prospects will indeed have an effect on our farm. Some sort of reaction follows most actions. To date, all of his moves have been made with regard to making our team stronger. I have no reason to doubt that any future obstacles that we face will not be dealt with in a way that keeps our team solid and competitive well in to the future.

 

Keeping Devers & Groome shows DD isn't 100% about the next 2 years (3 if we can replace Kimbrel & Price doesn't opt out). Those two can help us at a low cost, but it's hard to construct a winning roster with just 2-3 top class, low cost players. It's not impossible to draft a player or two who will be ready in years 4-5, but we can't wait to year 3 to do it. It almost has to be next draft.

 

My hope remains linked to international signings. Even with restrictions, we could find some more gems. I'm not without hope. I just know losing all these kids is going to hurt some day. I'm not "worrying" or fretting or crying. I'm not losing sleep over it. I'll deal with some low times if and when they come, but I'm not going to sugar coat our losses to defend my position that these deals were great. There's a downside to most trades, and our was the extended future. I can live with it, because I love what we have now... a lot!

 

[Hugh2]

Keeping Devers & Groome shows DD isn't 100% about the next 2 years (3 if we can replace Kimbrel & Price doesn't opt out). Those two can help us at a low cost, but it's hard to construct a winning roster with just 2-3 top class, low cost players. It's not impossible to draft a player or two who will be ready in years 4-5, but we can't wait to year 3 to do it. It almost has to be next draft.

 

My hope remains linked to international signings. Even with restrictions, we could find some more gems. I'm not without hope. I just know losing all these kids is going to hurt some day. I'm not "worrying" or fretting or crying. I'm not losing sleep over it. I'll deal with some low times if and when they come, but I'm not going to sugar coat our losses to defend my position that these deals were great. There's a downside to most trades, and our was the extended future. I can live with it, because I love what we have now... a lot!

 

 

Keeping those two is big, but even know....if one or both of them bust we have no other high end talent in the system. After those two theres a drop off to Sam Travis but after him theres a massive drop off. Guys will be top ten prospects the next year or two who never would even be top 20 prospects over the last several years.

 

How was DD's drafts in Detroit? off the top of my head they were not that great.

[S5Dewey]

There are two conflicting theories as to how to win the World Series.

 

Theory #1 is to assemble as many blue-chip players as a team can. This team will go into the WS favored to win it... and often will.

 

Theory #2 is to get there and after that "anything can happen". After all, it's been proven time and time again that the team with the best players doesn't always win the WS.

 

It appears that DD is currently favoring Theory #!. He's assembled players at... seven... positions who would have a legitimate shot at winning some kind of personal award- MVP, GG SS, CY. That's pretty impressive! While it doesn't guarantee a WS win it would seem that this would be a good team to bet on to win it all. And that's where we are now.

 

Looking to the future there's a lot to be said for our chances if you like Theory #2. We've got players signed to longer term contracts, some of whom will probably be extended into what some of us think are the 'lean years', 4-7 years down the road. The bad news is that some of them won't be extended, too. But that core of players who will be extended combined with players like Devers and Groome could very well be a team that makes the post-season, and after that... well... anything can happen!

 

I believe the Sox will do well for the next 3-4 seasons, and after that while they may not be a powerhouse they'll be a team who'll make the playoffs...and we all know what that means.

[Emp9]

I'm a Mookie fanboy. He's the type of player you try and build around and go for it while you can... for this fan anyway. I'd hate to look back years down the road and think of what if we traded this or that prospect (that wasn't ready yet) for a player that could've put us over the top and could've sealed the deal at the time. I like the young core group we have on the major league roster. Without them, none of these recent moves make sense. I wanted to trade for someone like Sale well before the Kimbrel trade. To have that many good prospects graduate and have so many more left over that if we didn't trade for a TOTR SP it would've been a ridiculous disappointment IMHO. To not trade for an aspect (#1 SP) that we all know the Sox have trouble developing themselves would've just been simply unfathomable to me. Especially now that we're in striking distance to another WS Championship (if things go right) within the next 3 years and looking at our competition (Tribe/Cubs). Thing is, I loved the Sale, Ziegler, and Thornburg trades, but the Kimbrel and Pomeranz trades were lacking. If there's any regret from me it was from the Kimbrel/Pom trades. Even though the Kimbrel trade makes more sense now and the Pom trade makes less sense now. All in all, even with our future in jeopardy, I still think if there was a time to go all in, now would be the time.

[moonslav59]

I'm a Mookie fanboy. He's the type of player you try and build around and go for it while you can... for this fan anyway. I'd hate to look back years down the road and think of what if we traded this or that prospect (that wasn't ready yet) for a player that could've put us over the top and could've sealed the deal at the time. I like the young core group we have on the major league roster. Without them, none of these recent moves make sense. I wanted to trade for someone like Sale well before the Kimbrel trade. To have that many good prospects graduate and have so many more left over that if we didn't trade for a TOTR SP it would've been a ridiculous disappointment IMHO. To not trade for an aspect (#1 SP) that we all know the Sox have trouble developing themselves would've just been simply unfathomable to me. Especially now that we're in striking distance to another WS Championship (if things go right) within the next 3 years and looking at our competition (Tribe/Cubs). Thing is, I loved the Sale, Ziegler, and Thornburg trades, but the Kimbrel and Pomeranz trades were lacking. If there's any regret from me it was from the Kimbrel/Pom trades. Even though the Kimbrel trade makes more sense now and the Pom trade makes less sense now. All in all, even with our future in jeopardy, I still think if there was a time to go all in, now would be the time.

 

It's like I wrote this myself.