Sox get Sale

[mvp 78]

Abad is less expendable than Brian Johnson.

[moonslav59]

How's the quality of our 40 man roster?

 

Well, I just listed 10 guys that are probably not that essential and could be easily replaced in kind (replacement level?). Here's the rest listed from lower to higher.

 

There's probably another that are close to expendable:

Robby Scott

 

Then there are the role players:

Pablo Sandoval

Mitch Moreland

Robbie Ross

Brock Holt

Chris Young

 

The promising:

Henry Owens

Brian Johnson

Marco Hernandez

Matt Barnes

Sandy Leon

Christian Vazquez

Blake Swihart

Eduardo Rodriguez

Andrew Benintendi

 

The quality:

Clay Buchholz

Joe Kelly

Carson Smith

Tyler Thornburg

Drew Pomeranz

Steven Wright

Craig Kimbrel

Hanley Ramirez

Xander Bogaerts

 

The top quality:

Jackie Bradley Jr.

Dustin Pedroia

David Price

Rick Porcello

Chris Sale

Mookie Betts

 

[cp176]

if everyone is healthy through ST how do you determine the "best players"?

are you actually stating that you would base the top 5 SPers based on Spring Training ERA/WHIP/BABIP/KW ratio?????

 

if that is the case, i dont think Pedro would have made our starting rotation in any year he was here......

 

ok - I'll be the sucker and bite. let's say you got 3 spots already locked up right? You agree? In their cases, it doesn't make any difference what kinds of whips, bips, knockouts or whatever right? Those 3 are in for sure. So now you got Pomeranz, Wright, E-Rod, and buck snorts all battling it out for the last 2 spots in the rotation. I guess I should have been clearer- I agree with you in the event that E-rod really sucks and gets outpitched in spring training then yes I would consider sending him down. but since I happen to think that he is a better pitcher than all of them, he would have to suck a lot more the way I (and probably a few ) others see it. Good try with the Pedro comparison but sorry I would not just send a better pitcher back to the minor leagues just because you wanted to have a stronger bench. I'm trying to be nice here because obviously no one else agrees with me (sarcasm) but I think it would be a sorry assed day when then happens to someone if they have earned the right to be there.

[moonslav59]

Abad is less expendable than Brian Johnson.

 

Since he's out of options, I'm not so sure. I do agree, he's more likely to be a help in 2017 than Johnson.

[OH FOY]

Rutledge was a Rule 5 pick, he has to be on 25 man Roster all year. Or returned.

[a700hitter]

Rutledge was a Rule 5 pick, he has to be on 25 man Roster all year. Or returned.

Or they could trade a player for him.

[moonslav59]

ok - I'll be the sucker and bite. let's say you got 3 spots already locked up right? You agree? In their cases, it doesn't make any difference what kinds of whips, bips, knockouts or whatever right? Those 3 are in for sure. So now you got Pomeranz, Wright, E-Rod, and buck snorts all battling it out for the last 2 spots in the rotation. I guess I should have been clearer- I agree with you in the event that E-rod really sucks and gets outpitched in spring training then yes I would consider sending him down. but since I happen to think that he is a better pitcher than all of them, he would have to suck a lot more the way I (and probably a few ) others see it. Good try with the Pedro comparison but sorry I would not just send a better pitcher back to the minor leagues just because you wanted to have a stronger bench. I'm trying to be nice here because obviously no one else agrees with me (sarcasm) but I think it would be a sorry assed day when then happens to someone if they have earned the right to be there.

 

I'll go with the 2 that give us the best chance to win. Since the other one can pitch from the pen, it's not like we're losing anyone from the 25 or 40 man roster.

 

The bigger question to me, is who makes the 25 man roster out of the 3 out-of-options RP'er?

 

Abad

Hembree

Elias

 

We can get creative with DLs, but I think, in theory, we'll have room for none. Once Smith comes back, we may have to choose again.

 

I have our 7 pitcher pen as follows:

 

Closer: Kimbrel

RP2: Thornburg

RP3: Kelly (until Smith returns)

RP4: Buch, Pom or Wright

RP5: Buch, Pom or Wright

RP6: Ross

RP7: Barnes

 

RP8: Abad, Hembree or Elias

 

Also: Scott, Workman, Owens/Johsnon, N Ramirez, K Martin, L Ysla

[moonslav59]

Rutledge was a Rule 5 pick, he has to be on 25 man Roster all year. Or returned.

 

Yes, but it doesn't mean he's totally indispensable, especially since we'll have Hernandez on the farm.

[OH FOY]

Yep, you can Trade Rutledge, but same rules apply for Team Trading for him.

[OH FOY]

Good for Rutledge, he was signed to a Minor League deal with the Rockies, he's guaranteed Major League Salary with the Sox, if he stays.

[a700hitter]

Yep, you can Trade Rutledge, but same rules apply for Team Trading for him.

Or we can trade a player to the Rockies to get Rutledge off Rule V and we can option him to the minor leagues.

[OH FOY]

Not doubting you, but you'll have to show me that rule. Thanks.

[OH FOY]

Your right, teams can work out Trades to original team, so you can option him to Minors. If that's the case wonder who's player to be named later?

[a700hitter]

Your right, teams can work out Trades to original team, so you can option him to Minors. If that's the case wonder who's player to be named later?

Usually a bag of balls.

[Kimmi]

This seems to be a damn difficult concept for some people to understand. Your best players play. That is just the way it is. All things being equal - everybody healthy - best players play. In basketball, you actually might be able to convince a kid that coming off the bench makes your team stronger by telling him that it is more important who is on the floor when the game ends as opposed to when it starts. That kid probably gets more pt than someone you choose to start. Not the same in baseball. There is nothing wrong with rewarding someone who is a better player. Being fair means running an intramural program. Don't think that flies.

 

Your best players play when you don't risk losing a potentially very good player by doing that. It's not about rewarding someone who is a better player. It's about giving the team the best chance to win over the course of a long season. To do that, you need depth and flexibility.

 

We're not talking about benching Price over Owens. We're talking about two pitchers that could provide similar back end production.

 

Not a difficult concept to understand.

[Kimmi]

I actually deleted my post because it was kind of crappy LOL

 

But yes, keeping all 7 to keep the Sean O'Sullivans of the world out of the picture if possible makes a ton of sense to me. It just creates some roster issues with where you stash the extra guy or two.

 

It makes a ton of sense to me too.

 

The roster issue is partially solved by stashing ERod in AAA.

 

Are we so sure that ERod will definitely pitch better than Buchholz, Pomeranz, or Wright? Can we base that off of spring training results? I would sure hate to trade Buchholz because of roster issues, only to have him pitch like the Good Buccholz while ERod struggles.

[Kimmi]

ERod was one of their four best starters by the end of last season - he is a stock you buy. The numbers problem is solveable in more sensible ways.

 

No one is selling ERod.

 

I don't disagree that there are other ways that the numbers problem could be solved, but I'm keeping as many good arms as I can.

[Nick]

It makes a ton of sense to me too.

 

The roster issue is partially solved by stashing ERod in AAA.

 

Are we so sure that ERod will definitely pitch better than Buchholz, Pomeranz, or Wright? Can we base that off of spring training results? I would sure hate to trade Buchholz because of roster issues, only to have him pitch like the Good Buccholz while ERod struggles.

 

There's a move to get under the luxury tax just to reset it. It's not the gross penalty amount they are concerned with, it's carrying over the high % into future years.

 

Go read the article about the two days surrounding winter meeting. DD wants to stay below cap.

[Kimmi]

For anyone who hasn't had the pleasure of reading this article, I've posted a link.

 

Kory nailed it from beginning to end.

 

CHRIS SALE IS A LUXURY THE RED SOX DIDN’T NEED

[Kimmi]

There's a move to get under the luxury tax just to reset it. It's not the gross penalty amount they are concerned with, it's carrying over the high % into future years.

 

Go read the article about the two days surrounding winter meeting. DD wants to stay below cap.

 

Well, trading Buchholz to get salary relief is a different story. I understand and agree with the desire to reset the luxury tax.

[cp176]

Your best players play when you don't risk losing a potentially very good player by doing that. It's not about rewarding someone who is a better player. It's about giving the team the best chance to win over the course of a long season. To do that, you need depth and flexibility.

 

We're not talking about benching Price over Owens. We're talking about two pitchers that could provide similar back end production.

 

Not a difficult concept to understand.

 

The last sentence is a tad nasty I think but oh well. I'm just guessing that I can understand most of the concepts that get thrown around here. You always risk losing a very good player every time they step on to the field. If you are saying that you think that there is any justification for sending better players down because you are planning for the bad things that might happen in the future and you want to have them there just in case - that's good I guess. Your opinion not mine.

[Bellhorn04]

For anyone who hasn't had the pleasure of reading this article, I've posted a link.

 

Kory nailed it from beginning to end.

 

CHRIS SALE IS A LUXURY THE RED SOX DIDN’T NEED

 

I understand the position of the writer. Personally I think he's a little too certain about the Red Sox not needing Sale. We might need him a lot. We don't know for sure that the other starters won't be struck by injury or underperformance. You can never have enough pitching and all that.

[Bellhorn04]

The last sentence is a tad nasty I think but oh well. I'm just guessing that I can understand most of the concepts that get thrown around here. You always risk losing a very good player every time they step on to the field. If you are saying that you think that there is any justification for sending better players down because you are planning for the bad things that might happen in the future and you want to have them there just in case - that's good I guess. Your opinion not mine.

 

But it's not even an opinion about bad things happening to pitchers. Pitchers are subject to extraordinarily high injury rates. And at least one of your starters usually gets off to a bad start for one reason or another. As moonslav keeps mentioning, we had to put Sean O'Sullivan in the rotation in May last year.

[Wade Boggs]

For anyone who hasn't had the pleasure of reading this article, I've posted a link.

 

Kory nailed it from beginning to end.

 

CHRIS SALE IS A LUXURY THE RED SOX DIDN’T NEED

 

 

After looking over this article my thought is... I like the trade. I understand the prospects that they traded. But my thought was at the time the starting staff was good not great. I completely understand everybody's under contract for a good amount of time. But Kimmi I don't have a problem with the Sale deal. The Pomeranz deal a little. It could have been voided. They chose not. The Red Sox have enough good/ great everyday players. They lacked a proven ace. That's not a knock on Price/Porcello. It was a good article. But they didn't say was Sale could take the pressure off the bullpen. That means a little less of Branes , Kelly, getting key late inning outs. I think Sale brings a little FU when he's on the mound. I think this could take the pressure off of Price. When you lose Ortiz your O drops . They replaced it with Sale and Thornburg. More pitching pitching... It's sort of like when a dog has puppies you can't keep every puppy. Some get sold. Sad but true.. I also think stashing Erod in the minors makes no sense. He the 4 th starter . He needs the ball every fifth day. I change on this everyday . I say move Bucholtz. I say move Pomeranz so they can restock the system. But I also saw in Cafardo's article that said both of their medical reports don't look good . I disagree. I keep both until after ST. They won't . But I would.

[moonslav59]

For anyone who hasn't had the pleasure of reading this article, I've posted a link.

 

Kory nailed it from beginning to end.

 

CHRIS SALE IS A LUXURY THE RED SOX DIDN’T NEED

 

Great article, but I still love the trade. This was the one paragraph that got me...

 

The other aspect of this that bothers me even more is this: one of the main reasons the Red Sox paid David Price over $200 million was so they wouldn’t have to make a farm system destroying deal like this. Recall last off-season when Dombrowski decided he had to have an “ace” (the irony being the eventual 2016 Cy Young award winner was already on his staff) but determined the pitchers on the trade market (including Sale) were too expensive in terms of prospects. So instead he issued the largest contract ever given to a starting pitcher. And now, one year later, now with “Cy” Porcello and Pomeranz, he blows up the farm system anyway. Does this seem like the workings of someone with a plan, or the meanderings of a ten-year-old in a mall whose parents just gave him a $20 bill and told him to “have fun?”

[Emp9]

For anyone who hasn't had the pleasure of reading this article, I've posted a link.

 

Kory nailed it from beginning to end.

 

CHRIS SALE IS A LUXURY THE RED SOX DIDN’T NEED

 

Without the Sale deal, the Sox were Play-off contenders. With Sale on board, they could be World Series contenders. This writer seems to forget that the Sox didn't win a game against the Guardians. Does anyone think the Guardians will be easier to beat in '17 when both Carrasco & Salazar are back to join Kluber? I have this strange feeling that Sale won't be a "Luxury" when/if we have to face them again in the Post Season.

[Nick]

All of you with panties bunched up.

 

Beni 17 18 19 20 21 22

Swihart 17 18 19 20 21

Pedey 17 18 19 20 21

Bradley 17 18 19 20

Betts 17 18 19 20

Bogaertz 17 18 19

Vazquez 17 18 19 20

Sandy 17 18 19 20

Haley 17 18 19

Pablo 17 18 19.

Holt 17 18 19

 

Price 17 18 19 20 21 22

E Rod 17 18 19 20 21

Wright 17 18 19 20

Porcello 17 18 19

Sale 17 18 19

Pom 17 18

 

AND YOU ARE ASSUMING THEY ARE ALL LEAVING when faced with Free Agency. We're in good shape for next 4 years. You don't think we'll acquire some young players via trade or draft in addition to extending contracts of current players? DD is intent on keeping our outfield intact.

 

What about last year's draft class? Dalbec? Chatam? Throw in guys like Devers who many think will be better defensive 3B man than Moncada. Better feet. Sam Travis? Groome? With a September call up, Devers and Travis will be under team control until 2023. See how that works?

 

I'd get rid of Clay's salary in the spring (assuming everyone is healthy) and then extend Pomeranz after season starts.

 

Don't jump off the bridge yet. You can wait 4 years at least.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Nick

[cp176]

But it's not even an opinion about bad things happening to pitchers. Pitchers are subject to extraordinarily high injury rates. And at least one of your starters usually gets off to a bad start for one reason or another. As moonslav keeps mentioning, we had to put Sean O'Sullivan in the rotation in May last year.

 

yes - ok - I think I understand that.

[Nick]

Venezuelan Professional Baseball League

 

Left-hander Eduardo Rodriguez (pictured) made his first start of the winter for the Navegantes del Magallanes on Thursday, tossing two perfect innings and striking out three.

 

Dominican Baseball League

 

Marco Hernandez had a big week for the Tigres del Licey, going 7 for 18 at the plate, clubbing a homer and a double apiece on Friday and Saturday. Third baseman Rafael Devers received just two plate appearances last week, going 0 for 2. Roenis Elias continued his strong run this winter, tossing six strong innings while allowing a run on five hits on Thursday, lowering his ERA to 2.06 in 35 innings pitched.

 

 

Roberto Clemente Professional Baseball League

 

Catcher Christian Vazquez was 3 for 14 at the plate this week, bringing his line to .266/.365/.328 in 18 games. Rusney Castillo hit the ground running this week, going 6 for 14 with a double in his first four games in Puerto Rico. Joseph Monge was 2 for 3 in his only start of the week and scored a run as a pinch-runner.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Nick

[moonslav59]

All of you with panties bunched up.

 

Beni 17 18 19 20 21 22

Swihart 17 18 19 20 21

Pedey 17 18 19 20 21

Bradley 17 18 19 20

Betts 17 18 19 20

Bogaertz 17 18 19

Vazquez 17 18 19 20

Sandy 17 18 19 20

Haley 17 18 19

Pablo 17 18 19.

Holt 17 18 19

 

Price 17 18 19 20 21 22

E Rod 17 18 19 20 21

Wright 17 18 19 20

Porcello 17 18 19

Sale 17 18 19

Pom 17 18

 

AND YOU ARE ASSUMING THEY ARE ALL LEAVING when faced with Free Agency. We're in good shape for next 4 years.

 

You're exaggerating. Nobody has even come close to saying we will lose even half our young players to free agency, let alone all of them.

 

 

You don't think we'll acquire some young players via trade or draft in addition to extending contracts of current players? DD is intent on keeping our outfield intact.

 

What about last year's draft class? Dalbec? Chatam? Throw in guys like Devers who many think will be better defensive 3B man than Moncada. Better feet. Sam Travis? Groome? With a September call up, Devers and Travis will be under team control until 2023. See how that works?

 

I'd get rid of Clay's salary in the spring (assuming everyone is healthy) and then extend Pomeranz after season starts.

 

Don't jump off the bridge yet. You can wait 4 years at least.

 

With all due respect, we've drafted like crap after the 15th pick for 11 years, and you want to pin your hopes on things changing radically to the good.

 

Trade for young players? With what? Pablo?

 

There's no freakin way we rebuild the farm to 1/4th of what it was in just 3-4 years.

 

Times have changed.

 

We are going to be great for 3-4- maybe 5 years, but we are going to pay someday for what DD did.

 

I'm happy with the choices made, but I'm not going to pretend all will be fine in 4-5 years.