Sox get Sale

[moonslav59]

But it's going to be that way whether we made these trades this year or not. At some point a few years down the road our core of players is going to become eligible for free agency. I have no problem with trading the players behind them in the depth chart to win now because the same issues are going to exist in 3-4 years regardless of what we do today.

 

The argument is that 3-4 years from now we would have had Dubon to replace Bogey, Moncada to replace Sandy or JBJ, Kopech to replace Porcello, Espi to replace Pomeranz, etc...

 

It's hard to imagine us, in this new structure of the draft and Int/l signings to replenish the farm like Ben did, so that in 3-4 years, we can either replace the next set of stars or trade the prospects for established stars..

[Slasher9]

David Ortiz took to social media Tuesday night to say Sale being in “Btown” got him “thinking.” http://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2016/12/06/the-chris-sale-deal-has-david-ortiz-thinking

 

yeah. he posted on IG:

"my god my boy Sale to Btown? you guys got me thinking."

[sk7326]

DD is a wheeler dealer. He doesn't go for some half baked player. He goes for and gets the top stud. Benny Boy never pulls the trigger on a trade like this... never.

 

Did he have the mandate? We'll never know. Clearly Dombrowski does.

 

Of course given the Cherington-esque approach won the World Series this past season - Henry's sea change the last year plus will always be interesting to me.

[mvp 78]

Get the duckboats ready.

[Emp9]

yeah. he posted on IG:

"my god my boy Sale to Btown? you guys got me thinking."

 

Could you imagine if that happened? That would be insane.

[a700hitter]

Did he have the mandate? We'll never know. Clearly Dombrowski does.

 

Of course given the Cherington-esque approach won the World Series this past season - Henry's sea change the last year plus will always be interesting to me.

I don't think there would have been any restriction on Benny Boy from getting a top 5 starting pitcher (age 27) on a well-below market 3 year contract. That would have been a stupid restriction. DD gets these deals done. Cherries never made a bold acquisition in a trade. That would not be Benny Boy, who prefers to hoard prospects.

[moonslav59]

That would not be Benny Boy, who prefers to hoard prospects.

 

I seriously doubt Ben would have unloaded all but 3 good prospects, but I think he would have traded a few and signed a big FA pitcher last year.

[moonslav59]

Our 2012-2015 was a first in history and unlikely to be repeated. A total anomaly.

 

It almost happened earlier in Red Sox history:

 

One of MLB's worst teams for 5 years (1962-1966)- then one win from a ring, then back to mediocrity 7 years (only reaching 89 wins once) befor another near miss in 1975 followed by 83 wins in 1976.

 

We kinda sucked around the near miss 1986 season as well.

 

[Dojji]

yeah. he posted on IG:

"my god my boy Sale to Btown? you guys got me thinking."

 

Keep thinking big guy, keep thinking. We have a chance at the top this year, and Papi knows that as well as anyone. That retirement is gonna start looking mighty boring mighty fast.

[Bellhorn04]

Get the duckboats ready.

 

Thanks Mr. Shaughnessy.

[moonslav59]

Keep thinking big guy, keep thinking. We have a chance at the top this year, and Papi knows that as well as anyone. That retirement is gonna start looking mighty boring mighty fast.

 

What if someone gets hurt mid season, and Papi is bored out of his mind?

[mvp 78]

Thanks Mr. Shaughnessy.

 

Do not invoke that name...

[Dojji]

"See here's how it is, Mr. Ortiz. We don't have a DH. We have millions of dollars. You are a DH. We have every chance to win a world series with or without you. You have a choice. Play or watch?" Edited December 7, 2016 by Dojji

[Bellhorn04]

Did he have the mandate? We'll never know. Clearly Dombrowski does.

 

Of course given the Cherington-esque approach won the World Series this past season - Henry's sea change the last year plus will always be interesting to me.

 

Cherington did have a win-now mandate of some sort, when you consider the signings of Hanley and Panda. Of course we can always speculate whose idea those signings really was.

[mvp 78]

Unpopular opinion:

 

Ortiz should stay retired. He's done enough for this franchise.

[Bellhorn04]

Do not invoke that name...

 

I'll never do it again, if you never say things like get the duckboats ready.

[mvp 78]

I'll never do it again, if you never say things like get the duckboats ready.

 

I will never stop saying that...

[Dojji]

Unpopular opinion:

 

Ortiz should stay retired. He's done enough for this franchise.

 

I don't disagree with this opinion, but he's got the talent. If he's also still got the itch, and we could use him, I don't see a good reason why not.

[moonslav59]

Cherington did have a win-now mandate of some sort, when you consider the signings of Hanley and Panda. Of course we can always speculate whose idea those signings really was.

 

I don't think it was a "win a championship now" mandate.

 

It was more like, get us out of last place and set us up for a big splash pitcher signing the following winter that will get us over the top mandate.

[moonslav59]

I don't disagree with this opinion, but he's got the talent. If he's also still got the itch, and we could use him, I don't see a good reason why not.

 

Agreed. There should be no pressure applied, but he should know that we'd welcome him back, if he chooses to return.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't think it was a "win a championship now" mandate.

 

It was more like, get us out of last place and set us up for a big splash pitcher signing the following winter that will get us over the top mandate.

 

Quite possibly. It can't be said that Ben didn't have big payrolls to work with though.

[FredLynn]

I've always been a firm believer in timing, timing is everything and there is a time and a place for both strategies.

 

I agree. How many times does a guy like Sale come along that costs no MLB talent in return and a $6.5M luxury tax price tag?

 

NEVER!

 

DD saw the wisdom of going for the golden apple.

 

Well done, DD!

 

I had reservations about this initially. But I am coming around to the wisdom of it. There was an article by Wilbur today reminding everyone of how badly overhyped several of our recent "can't miss" prospects were: Casey Kelly, Anthony Ranaudo, Henry Owens, Lars Anderson, Michael Bowden, Will Middlebrooks, and to a lesser extent, Daniel Bard. Maybe Moncada and Kopech will become stars at the ML level; maybe not. Meanwhile Sale cost us no ML players and we still have a semblance of a farm system.

[Bellhorn04]

I had reservations about this initially. But I am coming around to the wisdom of it. There was an article by Wilbur today reminding everyone of how badly overhyped several of our recent "can't miss" prospects were: Casey Kelly, Anthony Ranaudo, Henry Owens, Lars Anderson, Michael Bowden, Will Middlebrooks, and to a lesser extent, Daniel Bard. Maybe Moncada and Kopech will become stars at the ML level; maybe not. Meanwhile Sale cost us no ML players and we still have a semblance of a farm system.

 

Did Wilbur happen to mention Rizzo?

[sk7326]

Cherington did have a win-now mandate of some sort, when you consider the signings of Hanley and Panda. Of course we can always speculate whose idea those signings really was.

 

Of course there was a win now - but the question was on the "how" ... it's moot either way. I like all the moves - how can you not? But I don't want the infrastructure to atrophy either - and that is a legitimate thing to watch.

[moonslav59]

I had reservations about this initially. But I am coming around to the wisdom of it. There was an article by Wilbur today reminding everyone of how badly overhyped several of our recent "can't miss" prospects were: Casey Kelly, Anthony Ranaudo, Henry Owens, Lars Anderson, Michael Bowden, Will Middlebrooks, and to a lesser extent, Daniel Bard. Maybe Moncada and Kopech will become stars at the ML level; maybe not. Meanwhile Sale cost us no ML players and we still have a semblance of a farm system.

 

None of the prospects listed was ranked number 1 in all of MLB.

 

Kopech was getting very high praise. One scout said the session he watched was the best he'd ever seen as a scout.

 

We gave a lot, but we got something that never occurs. You just don't trade for known aces like this anymore.

[FredLynn]

Did Wilbur happen to mention Rizzo?

 

I am not saying that our GMs NEVER made good decisions. There were many: Bogaerts, Betts...and yes, Rizzo. But they whiffed on many as well. Some of our top prospects simply didn't pan out, despite the hype. I remember I couldn't wait to see Ranaudo pitch for us. He had a 9.48 ERA in 9 games for the Rangers and WS. Too many of our top prospects ended up sucking. If Moncada and/or Kopech end up in that boat, then we essentially stole Sale. Time will tell.

[Dojji]

Did Wilbur happen to mention Rizzo?

 

Rizzo is the exception that proves the rule and the only one of these that even hurts.

[FredLynn]

None of the prospects listed was ranked number 1 in all of MLB.

 

Kopech was getting very high praise. One scout said the session he watched was the best he'd ever seen as a scout.

 

We gave a lot, but we got something that never occurs. You just don't trade for known aces like this anymore.

 

Yeah, but they are called "prospects" for a reason. They have yet to prove anything. I admit its possible that either or both of them will contribute in a major way to the WS rebuilding efforts. Like you said, we got a proven ace for cheap money and gave up no ML players to do it. Tell me the last time that happened in a trade.

[Dojji]

I am not saying that our GMs NEVER made good decisions. There were many: Bogaerts, Betts...and yes, Rizzo. But they whiffed on many as well. Some of our top prospects simply didn't pan out, despite the hype. I remember I couldn't wait to see Ranaudo pitch for us. He had a 9.48 ERA in 9 games for the Rangers and WS. Too many of our top prospects ended up sucking. If Moncada and/or Kopech end up in that boat, then we essentially stole Sale. Time will tell.

 

See, this is why I wasn't too broken up about losing a lot of our scouting and development people. Our bust rate has been embarrassingly high in the last few years, especially on the pitching front. I'm personally just fine with losing those people and bringing in new ones under the circumstances.

[moonslav59]

Yeah, but they are called "prospects" for a reason. They have yet to prove anything. I admit its possible that either or both of them will contribute in a major way to the WS rebuilding efforts. Like you said, we got a proven ace for cheap money and gave up no ML players to do it. Tell me the last time that happened in a trade.

 

I love the deal, but I'm not going to kid myself or lessen what I thought of Moncada or Kopech, because they ate no longer ours.

 

Moncada is about as sure a bet as there is, and his upside is near limitless.

 

Kopech is much more speculative, but his upside is enormous.

 

I wish them well, except when they face us, and I expect this deal to rival the HanRam & Anibal Sanchez for Beckett (and Lowell) deal. Both sides could easily claim a win.