Sox get Sale

[mvp 78]

I'm cautiously optimist about this one. That being said, DD better bring us another trophy.

 

I'd be happy with just no more last place finishes. We already have 3 WS in the recent past. I just want the Sox to be a playoff contender every year.

[Jack Flap]

I usually err on the side of building from within and will readily admit my prospect-hugging tendencies, but the more I think about this deal, the more I like it. Probably my favorite Dombrowski trade yet, in fact. The cost was steep, to be sure, but justified, and if anything it could have been even more. I don't feel as if we've sold out the future, but rather upgraded both the present and the near-future significantly by drawing from a position of depth. (I don't think you make this trade unless you have confidence that Pablo can be the short-term and Devers the long-term answer at 3B.)

 

Yes, it sucks to see the farm all but emptied out, but having almost every position and the entire rotation set for the next 2-3 years at minimum will give us plenty of time to replenish it...and in the meantime, we get to watch what should be a very, very good major league team, which is really the whole point. I'm happy with that.

[oldtimer]

I usually err on the side of building from within and will readily admit my prospect-hugging tendencies, but the more I think about this deal, the more I like it. Probably my favorite Dombrowski trade yet, in fact. The cost was steep, to be sure, but justified, and if anything it could have been even more. I don't feel as if we've sold out the future, but rather upgraded both the present and the near-future significantly by drawing from a position of depth. (I don't think you make this trade unless you have confidence that Pablo can be the short-term and Devers the long-term answer at 3B.)

 

Yes, it sucks to see the farm all but emptied out, but having almost every position and the entire rotation set for the next 2-3 years at minimum will give us plenty of time to replenish it...and in the meantime, we get to watch what should be a very, very good major league team, which is really the whole point. I'm happy with that.

 

My concern is risk. Losing Sales due to injury is the risk. We are betting probably at least 10 years of ML contributions for Moncada, Basabe may also be a ML for years to come and Kopech has the talent to become a frontline starter in the future. Diaz at least has a chance to become a ML pitcher. That is a lot to lose and the risk is definitely there with sale. I'm not saying DD is wrong in what he did, but I wouldn't have and both opinions can be supported.

[Jack Flap]

My concern is risk. Losing Sales due to injury is the risk. We are betting probably at least 10 years of ML contributions for Moncada, Basabe may also be a ML for years to come and Kopech has the talent to become a frontline starter in the future. Diaz at least has a chance to become a ML pitcher. That is a lot to lose and the risk is definitely there with sale. I'm not saying DD is wrong in what he did, but I wouldn't have and both opinions can be supported.

 

I certainly get where you're coming from, but Moncada and Kopech are pretty high-risk prospects themselves (see contact/strikeout issues for the former and walk rate, questionable third pitch for the latter), and Basabe even more so (a high-upside but low-floor type by all accounts and probably a number of years away). Diaz is a pure relief prospect. We gave up quite a bit, but got an elite pitcher in his prime on a great contract in return -- easily justifiable in my opinion, though I certainly respect anyone who disagrees.

[moonslav59]

I'd be happy with just no more last place finishes. We already have 3 WS in the recent past. I just want the Sox to be a playoff contender every year.

 

I'd rather win a ring every 3-5 years and suck the rest.

[Bellhorn04]

I'd rather win a ring every 3-5 years and suck the rest.

 

There are no guarantees of winning the ring no matter what you do. The Cubs were the favorites this year and they won, but look at what they had to do, coming back from 3-1 in the WS with the last 2 games in Cleveland, winning in extra innings in Game 7.

 

The more times you make it to the playoffs the better your chances.

[moonslav59]

There are no guarantees of winning the ring no matter what you do. The Cubs were the favorites this year and they won, but look at what they had to do, coming back from 3-1 in the WS with the last 2 games in Cleveland, winning in extra innings in Game 7.

 

The more times you make it to the playoffs the better your chances.

 

I was speaking to a hypothetical choice:

 

A) stay competitive every year but don't win another ring in my lifetime

 

win a ring every 3-5 years and suck nearly all the others

 

I'll take B.

[Bellhorn04]

I was speaking to a hypothetical choice:

 

A) stay competitive every year but don't win another ring in my lifetime

 

win a ring every 3-5 years and suck nearly all the others

 

I'll take B.

 

Yeah but B is kind of an impossible scenario.

[OH FOY]

You want to build Farm system again fast, sign Jansen or Chapman. Trade Kimbrel, Relievers especially Closers are getting unreal Prospects back, especially at the Deadline. There will be a lot of teams looking for Closers at the Deadline, just because you closed the Market, with Melancon off the Market. That's how you think ahead.

I think you have to be under the Luxury Tax by Dec.2, take a chance.

[Slasher9]

holy crap!!!!!! I haven't posted in quite a long time but this certainly warranted it!!!!! This is a crazy good deal!!! I was as high on moncada as others......loved his speed a ton and his power potential but he just seemed to have too many question marks in terms of consistency at the ml level at the plate and in the field. I actually hate to see kopeck go because young fireballers like him are not a dime a dozen........but to get a real tor starter......it's an absolute no brainer.

 

When i saw the deal originally i thought that one of bogey, jbj, betts or benni would have been included.......in which case i would have been sad...... But to keep that young core intact is absolutely crazy awesome!!!!!!

 

The amazing thing is......price is our 3rd starter!!!! He's an ace on 3/4 of the clubs out there!! Haha!!!!

 

Sale, porcello, price, erod, pom???? With wright and buch as 6th starters and spot starters??? Crazy good. In all honesty though, i actually would be shocked if they broke camp with wright,buch and pom on the squad. I can see once of them being traded for some quality bp help or depth in the if.

 

this post.

 

Hot stove is on!!!!!

[Slasher9]

so, uh yeah.

when some of us were bitching about the Espi trade. this is the kind of trade that we wanted to do with prospects.

when some of us were saying we can get a TOTR starter for JUST PROSPECTS. this IS WHAT WE MEANT.

thanks for finally figuring it out DD.

[Slasher9]

BTW - when DD was brought in and we said "say goodbye to the Farm"....now you know. and knowing is half the battle.

at least this trade makes 100% sense.

[OH FOY]

Yankees built the whole Farm system back up, by Trading 2 Relievers at the Deadline. That SS they got from the Cubs is going to be very good.

[Emp9]

so, uh yeah.

when some of us were bitching about the Espi trade. this is the kind of trade that we wanted to do with prospects.

when some of us were saying we can get a TOTR starter for JUST PROSPECTS. this IS WHAT WE MEANT.

thanks for finally figuring it out DD.

 

Exactly right Slash.

[moonslav59]

Yeah but B is kind of an impossible scenario.

 

Look at 2012-2015, plus I didn't say suck every single year we don't win, so one could widen the example given to 2010-2015 or 2010-2016 with only 2 out of 7 seasons with over 90 wins and just one ring.

[Hugh2]

The farm exists to supplement the big league team. You do that two ways by either developing from within or trading to bring in guys to fill your mlb roster where it is weak.

 

There always seems to be a fight between emptying the farm to buy a team or saving all the prospects and developing from within. I've always been a firm believer in timing, timing is everything and there is a time and a place for both strategies. Ben C. was the right G.M. at the right time, the cost for a Bogaerts, JBJ, or Betts now would be much more than their prospect value 3 years ago. You do the math! the reason why these moves will make the Sox better is because they already have a good team to build them around. Chris Sale couldn't do crap on a crappy team in Chicago what would he look like Boston this past year if we traded Bogaerts/Betts/Barnes/JBJ for him a couple years ago?

 

I'll give credit where credit is due. DD has built a team that could be favored to win the WS next year. But he came into a team that had a stacked farm and a solid young core. It may end up being that he made the right moves at the right time that other G.M's wouldn't have the balls to make but lets not forget the patients it took to get us here.

[moonslav59]

You want to build Farm system again fast, sign Jansen or Chapman. Trade Kimbrel, Relievers especially Closers are getting unreal Prospects back, especially at the Deadline. There will be a lot of teams looking for Closers at the Deadline, just because you closed the Market, with Melancon off the Market. That's how you think ahead.

I think you have to be under the Luxury Tax by Dec.2, take a chance.

 

Not a bad idea, if Henry is okay with going way over the limit.

 

A smaller version might be to trade Buch for prospects once we know what we have for 4 & 5 starters.

 

I'd try to trade Abad and Elias for far away prospects right now.

 

I might trade Hembree, if he looks to be squeezed out of a 25 man roster slot. He's out of options.

 

[iortiz]

I was speaking to a hypothetical choice:

 

A) stay competitive every year but don't win another ring in my lifetime

 

win a ring every 3-5 years and suck nearly all the others

 

I'll take B.

 

I'd rather a competitive team every year.

 

This scenario is like watching the Diamondbacks every year hoping that the stars align and they win somehow and from nowhere a ring LOL!

 

Your scenario A gives you more chances to win a ring.

[Emp9]

The farm exists to supplement the big league team. You do that two ways by either developing from within or trading to bring in guys to fill your mlb roster where it is weak.

 

There always seems to be a fight between emptying the farm to buy a team or saving all the prospects and developing from within. I've always been a firm believer in timing, timing is everything and there is a time and a place for both strategies. Ben C. was the right G.M. at the right time, the cost for a Bogaerts, JBJ, or Betts now would be much more than their prospect value 3 years ago. You do the math! the reason why these moves will make the Sox better is because they already have a good team to build them around. Chris Sale couldn't do crap on a crappy team in Chicago what would he look like Boston this past year if we traded Bogaerts/Betts/Barnes/JBJ for him a couple years ago?

 

I'll give credit where credit is due. DD has built a team that could be favored to win the WS next year. But he came into a team that had a stacked farm and a solid young core. It may end up being that he made the right moves at the right time that other G.M's wouldn't have the balls to make but lets not forget the patients it took to get us here.

 

Good post hugh

[Bellhorn04]

Look at 2012-2015, plus I didn't say suck every single year we don't win, so one could widen the example given to 2010-2015 or 2010-2016 with only 2 out of 7 seasons with over 90 wins and just one ring.

 

Our 2012-2015 was a first in history and unlikely to be repeated. A total anomaly.

[moonslav59]

I've always been a firm believer in timing, timing is everything and there is a time and a place for both strategies.

 

I agree. How many times does a guy like Sale come along that costs no MLB talent in return and a $6.5M luxury tax price tag?

 

NEVER!

 

DD saw the wisdom of going for the golden apple.

 

Well done, DD!

[moonslav59]

Our 2012-2015 was a first in history and unlikely to be repeated. A total anomaly.

 

Like I said- a hypothetical scenario that actually happened recently.

[Emp9]

MLBTR usually posts links to the reactions around the league/media on blockbuster deals like this, but I haven't seen any there. Have there been any good write-ups about this yet?

[Hugh2]

I have no problem with the DD strategy and I am so so excited for this team over the next 3 years but I do remain a little nervous to what the drop off could be down the road.

 

I don't buy into the whole "well more prospects will come argument" I think that fails to understand the process of how teams bring in talent and how that playing field has drastically changed over the past several years.

 

So much of our talent came from one jackpot draft in 2011. This was the last draft where teams could spend freely without penalties and loss of draft picks and this allowed the Sox to draft high school talents and throw money at them like Swihart, Owens, Betts and others. New rules in the past CBA which still exist in the current one really takes away the financial advantage big market teams have in the draft to make up for picking lower.

 

Also the landscape has drastically changed in the international market as well which will have an impact. There will be prospects to come, they will get lucky with a guy, but don't think for one second the Sox are as capable as ever as building the farm system that was stripped away.

 

Perhaps this is a problem for another day, and we should just sit back and enjoy the next few years and largely I will. I just hope they find other ways to stay competitive down the road.

[Hugh2]

FTR I think the step up in talent from Kimbrel/Pomeranz to Sale vs. the step up in talent to the prospects exchanged in those deals makes this his best one yet. I really do like this deal, I'm just stepping back and taking a macro view at the long term horizon.....which in the short term looks very very good.

[S5Dewey]

I have no problem with the DD strategy and I am so so excited for this team over the next 3 years but I do remain a little nervous to what the drop off could be down the road.

 

I don't buy into the whole "well more prospects will come argument" I think that fails to understand the process of how teams bring in talent and how that playing field has drastically changed over the past several years.

 

So much of our talent came from one jackpot draft in 2011. This was the last draft where teams could spend freely without penalties and loss of draft picks and this allowed the Sox to draft high school talents and throw money at them like Swihart, Owens, Betts and others. New rules in the past CBA which still exist in the current one really takes away the financial advantage big market teams have in the draft to make up for picking lower.

 

Also the landscape has drastically changed in the international market as well which will have an impact. There will be prospects to come, they will get lucky with a guy, but don't think for one second the Sox are as capable as ever as building the farm system that was stripped away.

 

Perhaps this is a problem for another day, and we should just sit back and enjoy the next few years and largely I will. I just hope they find other ways to stay competitive down the road.

 

OK. But it's going to be that way whether we made these trades this year or not. At some point a few years down the road our core of players is going to become eligible for free agency. I have no problem with trading the players behind them in the depth chart to win now because the same issues are going to exist in 3-4 years regardless of what we do today.

 

DD's trades give us a window when our team should be very, very good with the potential for a WS Championship (or two). I'll take that over continued (comparative) mediocrity for now and beyond.

[Hugh2]

Yankees built the whole Farm system back up, by Trading 2 Relievers at the Deadline. That SS they got from the Cubs is going to be very good.

 

There system was already on the way back up before those trades as well. Before they brought in any talent they already had Jorge Mateo, Aaron Judge, Miguel Andujar, Gary Sanchez, Dustin Fowler. These guys were already in their system and they also had a lot of lower level guys in their system that are toolsy but too far away and without track records that people really like. They also drafted Blake Rutherford this year too. They were arguably a top 10 system before their trades and easily in the top half of baseball. Now after the trades they are a top 3 system and arguably the best.

[Hugh2]

OK. But it's going to be that way whether we made these trades this year or not. At some point a few years down the road our core of players is going to become eligible for free agency. I have no problem with trading the players behind them in the depth chart to win now because the same issues are going to exist in 3-4 years regardless of what we do today.

 

DD's trades give us a window when our team should be very, very good with the potential for a WS Championship (or two). I'll take that over continued (comparative) mediocrity for now and beyond.

 

That's a good point, but it shouldn't be the go to excuse to just trade as many prospects as it takes every time. Personally I like this deal, but I thought the Kimbrel trade was too much. And trying to maintain a strong farm and being competitive does not have to be mutually exclusive, that's my main point.

[Emp9]

David Ortiz took to social media Tuesday night to say Sale being in “Btown” got him “thinking.” http://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2016/12/06/the-chris-sale-deal-has-david-ortiz-thinking

[moonslav59]

I have no problem with the DD strategy and I am so so excited for this team over the next 3 years but I do remain a little nervous to what the drop off could be down the road.

 

I don't buy into the whole "well more prospects will come argument" I think that fails to understand the process of how teams bring in talent and how that playing field has drastically changed over the past several years.

 

So much of our talent came from one jackpot draft in 2011. This was the last draft where teams could spend freely without penalties and loss of draft picks and this allowed the Sox to draft high school talents and throw money at them like Swihart, Owens, Betts and others. New rules in the past CBA which still exist in the current one really takes away the financial advantage big market teams have in the draft to make up for picking lower.

 

Also the landscape has drastically changed in the international market as well which will have an impact. There will be prospects to come, they will get lucky with a guy, but don't think for one second the Sox are as capable as ever as building the farm system that was stripped away.

 

Perhaps this is a problem for another day, and we should just sit back and enjoy the next few years and largely I will. I just hope they find other ways to stay competitive down the road.

 

You make a strong case. If we keep winning more and more, our picks get lower and our spending allotment gets smaller.

 

We've gone from having 10-12 very promising prospects to 3:

 

Beni, Devers & Groome, and since Beni is slated to start LF next year, one could view it as having only 2 very promising prospects.

 

Maybe someone from the lower ranks jumps ahead this year, and it's good that our two highest need areas 2-3 years from now are 3B and pitching, so having Devers and Groome left over looks well planned out, but you are right. It will be very hard to find and acquire the next Moncada, Kopech, Margot, Espi, and maybe even Basabe and Dubon.