Rick Porcello Wins the Cy Young Award

[cp176]

I know we've argued this point for a long time.

 

I've played on winning teams that have awful chemistry, but everyone had a strong desire to win.

 

Something happened to cause Beckett not to care anymore. I don't think it was all him, in fact, I'm guessing someone else or others started the cancer that spread quickly and got out of control.

 

I've never said chemistry doesn't matter. I do remember thinking that day Billy Maryin and Reggie Jackson went at it in the dugout on national TV, that they were toast. They ended up winning it all that year, and maybe that's what soured me to the idea that Chemistry and attitude mattered as much as many seemed to think it did. I also remember Manny trying to put Youk in his place in the dugout. I seem to recall soem teammates saying it was a long time coming. Youk was a fierce competitor though, so I think sometimes poor attitudes can be OVERCOME AS LONG AS THE GUY CARES.

 

I respect your opinion a lot. Maybe my position has swung more towards your side over the years, but I don't think I'm all the way there yet.

 

i truly think that good teams have to have very strong leadership. I'm not sure the people that you mentioned necessarily had bad attitudes. Things happen that can't be explained quite often when the heat rises. It is a long season and these guys have to be close. I'll bet that there all types of things that go on that we don't hear of. That's a good thing. We don't need to know everything. If a team is going to win, they have to perform much like a strong family. Families are going to have problems but the best ones find ways to keep plugging along. It is about the leadership. We will miss Ortiz for sure and that is why when I read what Porcello said I was very pleased. He makes a lot of money but it seems like he gets it. I'm pretty sure Price does also. We just need a little bit more going forward. I like what I have seen and read about Beltran. I think that he would fit very nicely in the middle of our lineup. Good character guys. I have seen so many kids over the years that had great talent but their attitudes got in the way of its development. More often than not they let themselves and their teammates down at some point as the pressure built.

[Kimmi]

When the GM publicly states that, "he needed to change the culture of the clubhouse," there's definitely a problem. It's no secret Crawford & Gonzalez didn't want to be here, and Beckett was livid after he was ripped publicly after he decided to play 18 holes with Buchholz the day after he missed a start for "soreness." Beckett made his next start and threw batting practice for about 3 innings before Valentine finally yanked him. It was his "FU" to management.

 

No one can prove anything on this message board, but everything I've heard & read makes me think that it was much worse than most fans realize. My guess is that it will be a pretty big chapter in someone's book at some point. For now, we'all just have to disagree.

 

Was Beckett a clubhouse problem in 2011 though?

 

The FO overreacted to the 2011 collapse, IMO. Hiring Valentine to come in to 'whip this team into shape' was mistake number one. Actually, it was mistake number 3, behind letting Theo and Tito go. Valentine created a terrible clubhouse atmosphere, if you ask me, and there is a lot of evidence to support that.

 

I think the culture of the clubhouse and Ben's statement that it needed to be changed had more to do with Valentine than it did Beckett.

 

This is nothing more than my opinion, of course, but I still don't believe that Beckett was the bad egg that people are making him out to be.

[Kimmi]

I love the reasons Porcello gives for not pitching in the WBC next year. Hopefully he does not get talked into it. It is pretty obvious from his comments that he understands the physical and mental too doing what he does demands. His loyalty is right where it belongs with the Boston Red Sox. Hope Price follows suit.

 

I 100% agree with you on this. I was very pleased when I read that Porcello would not be pitching in the WBC and his reasons for his decision.

[a700hitter]

I don't ever want a Red Sox pitcher participating in that useless pointless tournament. It ruined Dice K's career. I am convinced of that. He ramped up too quickly and through a lot of high octane innnings in March permanently damaging his shoulder. Thereafter he was a request visitor of the FL. I remember Carlos Zambrano ruining his career at the WBC too. Stay home Rick and polish that Cy Young award instead of pitching in a pointless exhibition.

[Kimmi]

I think the situation was probably worse than we think. I bet some crap never came out.

 

When so many players are involved, the problem was serious.In my opinion, it went way beyond beer, chicken, golf and a cell phone call, and I'm not one that credits or blames clubhouse attitude as a significant factor in winning or losing very often.

 

Or maybe it was due to injuries to the pitching staff and a string of bad luck.

 

Yes, losing probably did contribute to some clubhouse tension, but I don't think clubhouse tension came first.

[Kimmi]

I don't ever want a Red Sox pitcher participating in that useless pointless tournament. It ruined Dice K's career. I am convinced of that. He ramped up too quickly and through a lot of high octane innnings in March permanently damaging his shoulder. Thereafter he was a request visitor of the FL. I remember Carlos Zambrano ruining his career at the WBC too. Stay home Rick and polish that Cy Young award instead of pitching in a pointless exhibition.

 

I really enjoy watching the WBC, but at the same time, I prefer that none of the Sox players participate in it. Especially pitchers.

[a700hitter]

I really enjoy watching the WBC, but at the same time, I prefer that none of the Sox players participate in it. Especially pitchers.

i enjoy watching all baseball, but I hate the WBC because it takes many of the best players away from Spring Training.

[moonslav59]

Or maybe it was due to injuries to the pitching staff and a string of bad luck.

 

Yes, losing probably did contribute to some clubhouse tension, but I don't think clubhouse tension came first.

 

It's the old chicken or egg came first debate.

 

Losing breeds disappointment and sometimes bad attitudes, or do bad attitudes breed losing?

 

Clearly bad things were going on aside from the losing.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't ever want a Red Sox pitcher participating in that useless pointless tournament. It ruined Dice K's career. I am convinced of that. He ramped up too quickly and through a lot of high octane innnings in March permanently damaging his shoulder. Thereafter he was a request visitor of the FL. I remember Carlos Zambrano ruining his career at the WBC too. Stay home Rick and polish that Cy Young award instead of pitching in a pointless exhibition.

 

I think the same thing about Dice-K. It was after his second WBC that all his injury problems began.

[Dojji]

I don't think it's ever quite that simple. Personally I suspect Daisuke's decline happened after the deadline in 2007, before he ever played in that WBC. If memory serves, Daisuke went from being a very durable starter to struggling to get through 5 innings starting in that bad spell we had in August of 2007, and he really was never quite the same pitcher after that August that he had been before. Could be injury? Yes it could. Or it could be that the league started to adjust to him at that point. Or maybe that was just when I started to notice the cracks starting to spread,

 

But anyway, no, I'm not fully convinced that the real problems started after 2008 when there were obvious problems by the end of 2007. I remain convinced that Daisuke hid an injury from the team starting at the end of July 2007, and it was concealing that injury that led to the fallout to his career after that point.

 

I distinctly remember Daisuke touching 96 on the radar gun several times in his first few months with the team, and living around 93-94 MPH. I distinctly remember that almost never happening after July 2007 after which he frequently sat 91-92 and with that subtle-but-significant drop in fastball velocity, started to lose confidence in his power stuff and get serious about the whole nibbling thing he would become unfortunately well known for.

 

Now what is possible, is that the problems Daisuke was already concealing went from minor to critical as a result of participating in the WBC instead of focusing on recovery. That's certainly a distinct possibility that matches history as I remember it. But I don't think there's as obvious a year-to-year breakdown, first year completely uninjured and pristine, second year, one foot in the grave.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Dojji

[Spudboy]

I'm just glad Dice-K is gone.

[moonslav59]

That was so long ago...

[Spudboy]

That was so long ago...

 

Yes it was. But there was a s***-ton of Dice-K hate here on Talksox.

[moonslav59]

There was on "that other site" too, but take a deep breath and let it go...

 

[southpaw777]

And (reportedly) Kate Upton responds:

 

 

Scroll down.

 

Someone has a sandy vagina

[Kimmi]

It's the old chicken or egg came first debate.

 

Losing breeds disappointment and sometimes bad attitudes, or do bad attitudes breed losing?

 

Clearly bad things were going on aside from the losing.

 

Beckett was given his initial extension because management loved his work ethic and they felt that he was a good role model for younger pitchers to model themselves after. Beckett also received another extension in 2010, which I'm pretty sure he would not have received if the FO had any issues with him being a 'problem'.

 

He might have been a 'problem' in 2012, but that was after he was unfairly crucified for the chicken and beer thing and that was during the Valentine fiasco.

No, those things don't excuse Beckett from having a bad attitude, if he did indeed have one, but my whole point was that he got a bum rap for the 2011 collapse.

[moonslav59]

Beckett was given his initial extension because management loved his work ethic and they felt that he was a good role model for younger pitchers to model themselves after. Beckett also received another extension in 2010, which I'm pretty sure he would not have received if the FO had any issues with him being a 'problem'.

 

He might have been a 'problem' in 2012, but that was after he was unfairly crucified for the chicken and beer thing and that was during the Valentine fiasco.

No, those things don't excuse Beckett from having a bad attitude, if he did indeed have one, but my whole point was that he got a bum rap for the 2011 collapse.

 

I've been saying all along that people don't change that radically overnight. I'm not sure Beckett was the ring leader or even a major part of the clubhouse problems. I'm just saying I think the whole team tanked. They pissed away a playoff slot, and I think their collective attitude had a significant role in their demise.

 

We may never know everything that happened, and there is a chance it's all been overblown, but I think there's a bigger chance it was "underblown".

 

[Bellhorn04]

I've been saying all along that people don't change that radically overnight. I'm not sure Beckett was the ring leader or even a major part of the clubhouse problems. I'm just saying I think the whole team tanked. They pissed away a playoff slot, and I think their collective attitude had a significant role in their demise.

 

We may never know everything that happened, and there is a chance it's all been overblown, but I think there's a bigger chance it was "underblown".

 

It was primarily the pitching that collapsed. The team scored 5.4 runs a game that September, but they gave up an incredible 6.4 runs per game.

[moonslav59]

It was primarily the pitching that collapsed. The team scored 5.4 runs a game that September, but they gave up an incredible 6.4 runs per game.

 

True enough, and the pitchers didn't seem to care a lick.

 

There was no fire in the dugout. No energy.

 

It's sad that it ultimately led to Tito's departure.

[Dojji]

And if the same pitchers had been throwing well, we'd have said they were relaxed and confident and how well their calmness reflected on the management.

 

There is a reason I never read Boston sports media and avoid the likes of the Dan Shaugnessey in particular like the plague. All they really do is react to the effect of what happens and try to pretend that there's an overarching narrative to it, and I can do that all by myself.

[moonslav59]

And if the same pitchers had been throwing well, we'd have said they were relaxed and confident and how well their calmness reflected on the management.

 

There is a reason I never read Boston sports media and avoid the likes of the Dan Shaugnessey in particular like the plague. All they really do is react to the effect of what happens and try to pretend that there's an overarching narrative to it, and I can do that all by myself.

 

I stopped reading DS and others long ago as well.

 

I've said i'm not sure if it was better or worse than the media made it seem like, but Tito was let go, and I doubt DS had anything to do with that.

 

I happen to think it was worse than it appeared. The cell phone call, watching the lack of energy in the dugout and on the field. Hardly anybody was rooting for others. It was sad.

 

[Behindenemylines]

Porcello earned this one. Hopefully, his performance carries over to 2017. Sox need the consistent starter at the top of the rotation.

[mvp 78]

I'm just glad Dice-K is gone.

 

Gone but never forgotten.

[vjcsmoke]

Congrats to Rick!! He really deserved this Cy Young award.

The guy carried us for a large portion of the regular season and just gave us a chance to win every time out.

A true workhorse starter.

Hopefully Porcello kicks on and continues to improve.

 

I'll admit I was doubtful when they gave him the big extension early. But he has proven that he deserves every penny of his contract.

 

Now, we still need to get another quality starter, but the price has to be right and it needs to be the right guy.

 

Because honestly I'm not sure if E Rod will continue to progress.

Pomeranz also has something to prove, that he can do it in the AL East, which is the toughest division in baseball to pitch against.

 

Hopefully Wright can repeat.

And Buccholz, well he's about as reliable as a roulette wheel. LOL.

 

I still believe we need another good starting pitcher to really be contenders in the postseason.

[mvp 78]

Porcello just announced retirement. He had stepped away from the game to be with his family, but now it is permanent. Congrats!

[Jasonbay44]

Porcello just announced retirement. He had stepped away from the game to be with his family, but now it is permanent. Congrats!

 

Good for him. He was very solid player and great in the clubhouse. Definitely enjoyed having him in Boston