Christian Vazquez

[notin]

Yeah, well one of the top 13 teams made to the ALCS or NLCS. Two of the top 18 made it that far.

 

Success in the post-season doesn't counter the advantage of having another hitter in the lineup for 162 games.

 

Defense is important, but defense at the expense of offense , especially done too often, may have a price...

[Kimmi]

4 of the top 6 made the playoffs. I wonder how many other positions have that.

 

Although Texas had Lucroy for less than half a season...

 

OTOH, those 4 of the top 6 teams also have strong defensive catchers. I would guess that there would be a stronger correlation between teams with strong defensive catchers and teams making the postseason than between teams with better hitting catchers and teams making the postseason.

[moonslav59]

OTOH, those 4 of the top 6 teams also have strong defensive catchers. I would guess that there would be a stronger correlation between teams with strong defensive catchers and teams making the postseason than between teams with better hitting catchers and teams making the postseason.

 

Good point.

 

Yes 4 out of the top 6 catcher hitting teams made the playoffs, but it was also 4 of the top 13 teams made the playoffs. That's 31%. 5 of the top 17 made the playoffs. In theory, 5 out of 15 should make it, if it was randon.

 

Since 10 out of 30 teams make the playoffs, which is 33%, then there's not much of a correlation between having a plus hitting catching and making the playoffs. Slight, but not major.

[Kimmi]

Good point.

 

Yes 4 out of the top 6 catcher hitting teams made the playoffs, but it was also 4 of the top 13 teams made the playoffs. That's 31%. 5 of the top 17 made the playoffs. In theory, 5 out of 15 should make it, if it was randon.

 

Since 10 out of 30 teams make the playoffs, which is 33%, then there's not much of a correlation between having a plus hitting catching and making the playoffs. Slight, but not major.

 

Agreed. I don't really see much of a correlation there.

[moonslav59]

Rating catching defense has always been a tough task.

 

For what's it's worth, here's where the playoff teams ranked on fangraph's team catcher defense page:

 

4 BOS

7 CLE

10 SFG

11 C Cubs

12 TEX

14 WSH

15 LAD

18 BAL

29 TOR

 

Looks like a slightly closer correlation to better catcher defense than better catcher offense, in terms of making the playoffs.

 

[southpaw777]

Rating catching defense has always been a tough task.

 

For what's it's worth, here's where the playoff teams ranked on fangraph's team catcher defense page:

 

4 BOS

7 CLE

10 SFG

11 C Cubs

12 TEX

14 WSH

15 LAD

18 BAL

29 TOR

 

Looks like a slightly closer correlation to better catcher defense than better catcher offense, in terms of making the playoffs.

 

 

Yes, i agree. It seems te better defensive catchers are at the top.

There is ONE position on the field where, IMHO, defense will ALWAYS trump offense, and thats at the catchers position. We have 8 other positions to make it up. Its the most important position defensively on the diamond and has the most workload to deal with...Id stay with Vaz and Leon over Swihart at catcher every day...

[moonslav59]

Yes, i agree. It seems te better defensive catchers are at the top.

There is ONE position on the field where, IMHO, defense will ALWAYS trump offense, and thats at the catchers position. We have 8 other positions to make it up. Its the most important position defensively on the diamond and has the most workload to deal with...Id stay with Vaz and Leon over Swihart at catcher every day...

 

Plus, our catcher offense was ranked 18th, which is not really that bad (.681). The league catcher OPS average was .702.

 

I know people keep talking about a Leon offensive regression, but one could also look at the strong possibility that a Leon-Vaz combo could improve on these numbers:

 

181 PAs .584 by Vaz

111 PAs .449 by Hanigan

34 PAs .454 by Holaday

 

That's 326 PAs of pretty God-awful offense.

 

Leon only had 271 PAs (.840) and Swihart 23 PAs (.669) as catchers, so if Leon can give us 400 PAs at .690 and Vaz can give us 200 PAs at .630, our catcher OPS could improve from 2016.

 

[southpaw777]

Plus, our catcher offense was ranked 18th, which is not really that bad (.681). The league catcher OPS average was .702.

 

I know people keep talking about a Leon offensive regression, but one could also look at the strong possibility that a Leon-Vaz combo could improve on these numbers:

 

181 PAs .584 by Vaz

111 PAs .449 by Hanigan

34 PAs .454 by Holaday

 

That's 326 PAs of pretty God-awful offense.

 

Leon only had 271 PAs (.840) and Swihart 23 PAs (.669) as catchers, so if Leon can give us 400 PAs at .690 and Vaz can give us 200 PAs at .630, our catcher OPS could improve from 2016.

 

 

And if you think about it, Vaz had a couple months in MLB. He struggled offensively at first but started to turn it on a little at the end. Then he got hurt and missed a year. He really hasnt had any real consistency in MLB since being brought up, so Im really curious to see him have a full season in MLB.

Leon should be fine. Prob regress a little, but I think he will be right in line with most other catchers.

[moonslav59]

And if you think about it, Vaz had a couple months in MLB. He struggled offensively at first but started to turn it on a little at the end. Then he got hurt and missed a year. He really hasnt had any real consistency in MLB since being brought up, so Im really curious to see him have a full season in MLB.

Leon should be fine. Prob regress a little, but I think he will be right in line with most other catchers.

 

I mentioned .690 from leon in 400 PAs and .630 from Vaz in 200 PAs as actually improving on last year's catcher OPS, but I think we can and will do better than that.

 

I'm happy with our catcher defense right now. Very happy. If we can get a .710 OPS from them, which is above average these days, we'd turn a long time problem area on this team to a sure fire plus-plus.

 

If it works out, we may trade swihart at the deadline or try him at another position, if something goes wrong in the OF or 1B/3B/DH.

[OH FOY]

Last year with games caught by Vazquez (15) Price's ERA was 4.62 97.1 innings 14 HRS

In games Leon caught him (16) Price's era was 3.23 108.2 innings 12 HRS

[Hugh2]

Last year with games caught by Vazquez (15) Price's ERA was 4.62 97.1 innings 14 HRS

In games Leon caught him (16) Price's era was 3.23 108.2 innings 12 HRS

 

I do think that catchers can have an impact on a pitchers era however I also think it's very very very hard to determine as well. Price struggled earlier in the year and turned it on as the season went on. Now was that because of Vas? or did Prices early season struggles stand alone and we shouldn't read into the small sample size?

 

From what I've heard pitchers love throwing to Vaz and we know how great his defense is, my concern is with his bat.

[moonslav59]

Last year with games caught by Vazquez (15) Price's ERA was 4.62 97.1 innings 14 HRS

In games Leon caught him (16) Price's era was 3.23 108.2 innings 12 HRS

 

The numbers are similar to Porcello's:

With Leon: 2.52 in 94 IP (11 HRs)

With Vaz 3.64 in 107 IP (10 HRs)

 

and Buch:

Leon 3.84 in 61 IP (6 HRs)

Vaz 5.60 in 53 IP (11 HRs)

 

Some different results here though:

 

Wright

Vaz 2.72 in 36 IP

Han 2.90 in 90 IP

Leon 6.46 in 24 IP

 

ERod

Vaz 4.50 in 22 IP

Leon 4.90 in 79 IP

 

[S5Dewey]

The numbers are similar to Porcello's:

With Leon: 2.52 in 94 IP (11 HRs)

With Vaz 3.64 in 107 IP (10 HRs)

 

and Buch:

Leon 3.84 in 61 IP (6 HRs)

Vaz 5.60 in 53 IP (11 HRs)

 

Some different results here though:

 

Wright

Vaz 2.72 in 36 IP

Han 2.90 in 90 IP

Leon 6.46 in 24 IP

 

ERod

Vaz 4.50 in 22 IP

Leon 4.90 in 79 IP

 

 

As I mentioned earlier in another thread, O'Brian said that the starting catcher this year may be determined by the pitching staff. Right now I see it as Leon's job to lose, but with Vaz on his heels Leon may... or may not... lose it.

[moonslav59]

As I mentioned earlier in another thread, O'Brian said that the starting catcher this year may be determined by the pitching staff. Right now I see it as Leon's job to lose, but with Vaz on his heels Leon may... or may not... lose it.

 

We might see Vaz be Wright's caddy...maybe catch ERod half the time.

[Spudboy]

You guys are all way off here.

 

Clearly both are fleet footed.

 

Whoever runs the bases most effectively will win the starting gig.

 

Jeez.

[S5Dewey]

You guys are all way off here.

 

Clearly both are fleet footed.

 

Whoever runs the bases most effectively will win the starting gig.

 

Jeez.

 

That would be an interesting way to decide it, but the entire spring training may not be long enough to let those two guys "race" around the bases.

[southpaw777]

That would be an interesting way to decide it, but the entire spring training may not be long enough to let those two guys "race" around the bases.

 

I thin since Vaz dropped a little weight last year hes got the foot race hands down. Leon is still pretty "stocky"

[notin]

Last year with games caught by Vazquez (15) Price's ERA was 4.62 97.1 innings 14 HRS

In games Leon caught him (16) Price's era was 3.23 108.2 innings 12 HRS

 

That's only because Vazquez worked with Price before Pedroia had a chance to straighten tbe pitcher out...

[Hugh2]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Swihart back in the fold by mid season behind the plate.

[southpaw777]

The numbers are similar to Porcello's:

With Leon: 2.52 in 94 IP (11 HRs)

With Vaz 3.64 in 107 IP (10 HRs)

 

and Buch:

Leon 3.84 in 61 IP (6 HRs)

Vaz 5.60 in 53 IP (11 HRs)

 

Some different results here though:

 

Wright

Vaz 2.72 in 36 IP

Han 2.90 in 90 IP

Leon 6.46 in 24 IP

 

ERod

Vaz 4.50 in 22 IP

Leon 4.90 in 79 IP

 

 

i could care less for very SSS partial year stats for a catcher back from TJS and a couple pitchers new to Boston and a flutterballer...

[southpaw777]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Swihart back in the fold by mid season behind the plate.

 

Only if he can figure out how to block a ball in the dirt and not give yp too many runs

[moonslav59]

That's only because Vazquez worked with Price before Pedroia had a chance to straighten tbe pitcher out...

 

But, would Leon have seen it before Pedey?

[Hugh2]

Only if he can figure out how to block a ball in the dirt and not give yp too many runs

 

If I was a betting man I'd bet he's the starting catcher by June. I mean....I wouldn't bet the bank on it, but I'd bet a few pennies if you will.

[Emp9]

You guys are all way off here.

 

Clearly both are fleet footed.

 

Whoever runs the bases most effectively will win the starting gig.Jeez.

 

Swihart it is then? LOL

[moonslav59]

Even with a broken ankle, he'd probably still beat Vaz & Leon in a race.

[Eddy Ballgame]

But, would Leon have seen it before Pedey?

 

Even with a broken ankle, he'd probably still beat Vaz & Leon in a race.

 

Agreed. Swihart is a great athlete, which is obviously one of the reasons they seem to tell everyone he's simply not available. I'm glad the "Buster Posey" comparisons have been tempered (maybe more like a BJ Surhoff ceiling), but I don't think anyone would be surprised to see him become the #1 catcher on this team at some point in the near future.

[moonslav59]

We have a pretty good core of AAA back-ups for non-pitchers:

 

C (LF) Swihart (Romanski)

1B Travis (Craig)

2B, SS, 3B Hernandez (Marrero & Miller))

3B Dominguez

OF Lake & Brentz (Castillo/Craig)

DH Witte

 

 

[Hugh2]

Agreed. Swihart is a great athlete, which is obviously one of the reasons they seem to tell everyone he's simply not available. I'm glad the "Buster Posey" comparisons have been tempered (maybe more like a BJ Surhoff ceiling), but I don't think anyone would be surprised to see him become the #1 catcher on this team at some point in the near future.

 

I think thats a pretty fair comp, If he develops into his ceiling the same way JBJ did then I could see him putting up numbers similar to B.J. when he was in his prime. B.J. developed a little later though, lets hope it doesn't take Swihart 5 years to figure it out.

[southpaw777]

I think thats a pretty fair comp, If he develops into his ceiling the same way JBJ did then I could see him putting up numbers similar to B.J. when he was in his prime. B.J. developed a little later though, lets hope it doesn't take Swihart 5 years to figure it out.

 

If his D, game calling and pitch framing doesnt get better hes more of a liability behind the plate...hes doing this well because of his athleticism, just remember that he's not a "natural" catcher like Leon and Vaz are...

I hope his D does develop and he becomes more valuable to us AND other teams. Swihart could do very well in helping restock the farm...

[Eddy Ballgame]

If his D, game calling and pitch framing doesnt get better hes more of a liability behind the plate...hes doing this well because of his athleticism, just remember that he's not a "natural" catcher like Leon and Vaz are...

I hope his D does develop and he becomes more valuable to us AND other teams. Swihart could do very well in helping restock the farm...

 

Blake Swihart is a 24 year old kid, so I'm pretty sure that he has some time to improve defensively, as well as offensively. There's a reason why it's always reported that the Sox have no interest in trading him.

 

Young, very athletic catchers who hit effectively from both sides of the plate don't exactly grow on trees, but "natural" catchers who can't hit seem to be pretty common in baseball.