Christian Vazquez

[Eddy Ballgame]

Swihart would be the headliner on a package, in theory, to get a solid pitcher.

 

I have contended that Blake's value as a starting catcher on another team is more than his value as a platoon LF'er/3rd string catcher for the Sox. Please do not take this to mean I value Swihart less than any of you do. I still think he is a great young talent with high value.

 

My second major piece would be Devers. I realize that Shaw is still not a sure bet at 3B, and with HanRam possibly being our DH next year, trading Devers could be viewed as risky. However, I think Moncada's ultimate landing spot might be 3B, 1B or DH (with LF as another choice). We also have Sam Travis and Pablo Sandoval in the mix at 3B/1B next year, if Shaw falters. I think these facts essentially mean Devers is all but blocked. Again, this does not mean I devalue Devers. I just see his value as being greater for another team, and that is a foundation for making a trade offer.

 

So, my choice for making a serious offer for a solid #2 type SP'er would start with Swihart and Devers. To improve our chances at getting the best (non rental) SP'er out there for this portion of a package, we could do one or more of the following:

 

1) Take on a high salary pitcher or add another high salary player as a salary dump (like Mike Lowell was in the Beckett deal).

2) Offer someone like Castillo or Pablo with just about all their salary paid, assuming the other team wants one.

3) Widen the package with a vet or two, if the team is looking to seriously compete next year (such as Holt or Kelly/Buchholz/Barnes/Elias/Layne)

4) Widen the package with mid-level prospects such as...

Kopech, Owens, Johnson, Lakins, Light, TBall, Stanki/ K Martin/C Acosta

Marrero, Hernandez, Dubon, Chavis, Longhi, Ockimey or maybe even Travis

Basabe or Yoan Aybar

5) Offer cash

 

I'd try hard to do any of the above, before I part with Moncada, Benintendi or Espinoza.

 

Note: just because a guy like Sam Travis is ranked 5th in our system, doesn't mean his value is equal to other teams' #5 prospect. Not many teams have 4 top prospects like ours.

 

 

At this point, I think that the only untouchable guy is Moncada. They have 60 milion invested and he has a chance to be special. It would have to be names like Fernandez & Sale for him to even be considered. I also think that Swihart and Espinosa are close to untouchable as well, but Benintendi could be that centerpiece with Devers and Kopech.

I've read enough to think that the Sox are not high enough on Terehen from Atlanta, so not sure what else might be available, but they will do something. My guess is that they will go after bullpen help based on supply & demand.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Eddy Ballgame

[moonslav59]

I think the question is with so many bad pitchers on the team, is this season even salvageable? I posted this on the game thread too:

 

Elias's ERA is now 15.88. Sean O' Sullivan is at 7.94. ERod is at 6.97. Kelly: 8.46. And Buchholz as a starter: 6.35.

 

Those are your #4-5 SPs. They are more like #7 SPs. Should we empty the farm (and thats probably what it would take) to get TWO (not one) very good SPs and a bullpen arm. Mid-level SPs are not going to solve our problem. Its a difficult decision. This team's pitching is very full of holes.

 

Whenever you have two guys pitching like aces and an offense like ours, you have a shot in the playoffs. That's why we are still close to the best record in the AL.

 

If we can acquire a solid #2 type this summer and just one of the guys left over turns things around. I'd bet on ERod with Buch as an longshot.

[moonslav59]

At this point, I think that the only untouchable guy is Moncada. They have 60 milion invested and he has a chance to be special. It would have to be names like Fernandez & Sale for him to even be considered. I also think that Swihart and Espinosa are close to untouchable as well, but Benintendi could be that centerpiece with Devers and Kopech.

I've read enough to think that the Sox are not high enough on Terehen from Atlanta, so not sure what else might be available, but they will do something. My guess is that they will go after bullpen help based on supply & demand.

 

I disagree on trading Benintendi over Swihart for various reasons.

 

I feel...

 

1) Benintendi is better than Swihart.

2) Vazquez is better at Catcher than Swihart.

3) Vazquez is better at Catcher than Young/Swihart are in LF, so LF is a higher need area 2 years out than C.

4) Swihart should bring more in return than Benintendi,

 

[Eddy Ballgame]

Whenever you have two guys pitching like aces and an offense like ours, you have a shot in the playoffs. That's why we are still close to the best record in the AL.

 

If we can acquire a solid #2 type this summer and just one of the guys left over turns things around. I'd bet on ERod with Buch as an longshot.

 

Right now, Price and Wright are a solid 1-2, Porcello a solid 3 and pray for rain. I agree that Buchholz might be resurrected from the dead, but E-Rod isn't himself. They need somebody to give them some innings right now.

[moonslav59]

Right now, Price and Wright are a solid 1-2, Porcello a solid 3 and pray for rain. I agree that Buchholz might be resurrected from the dead, but E-Rod isn't himself. They need somebody to give them some innings right now.

 

Erod is dealing with injury, so I'm holding out hope he gets healthy and then finds his groove. It might be a better chance than Buch finding himself.

[a700hitter]

Erod is dealing with injury, so I'm holding out hope he gets healthy and then finds his groove. It might be a better chance than Buch finding himself.

Buch is back on Wednesday.

[Kimmi]

Vasquez is still very young and he should have a long career as a backup in a worst case scenario, but I don't think Swihart is as available in a trade as many others do. Certainly not for what starting pitchers seem to be available at this point.

 

I have confidence in Vazquez to regain his elite defensive level. Because of that, I still think Swihart is worth more to some other team in trade value than he is to us. If he could be part of a package to bring back a #2 type pitcher, I'd do it in a heartbeat, and I love Swihart.

 

Kory's article suggested trading for Lucroy. Depending on the price, I don't think that's a bad idea. That said, upgrading the catching position is not a top priority IMO.

[CliffKlowers]

Good article in today's Herald about E-Rod's mechanics being affected by his sore knee. They will make adjustments.

[moonslav59]

If ERod's injury is causing him to pitch differently or change his mechanics, I'd shut him down until he's all the way back.

Don't mess up this kid!

[southpaw777]

I have confidence in Vazquez to regain his elite defensive level. Because of that, I still think Swihart is worth more to some other team in trade value than he is to us. If he could be part of a package to bring back a #2 type pitcher, I'd do it in a heartbeat, and I love Swihart.

 

Kory's article suggested trading for Lucroy. Depending on the price, I don't think that's a bad idea. That said, upgrading the catching position is not a top priority IMO.

 

Vaz had a year off. I think giving him plenty of time to get everything back to normal is worth it with his elite defense. He will hit too. Bold prediction? Give him a couple years like Yadi and he will be plenty good on offense as well.

Swihart is expendable in our system and should fetch a good starter as a possible headliner in a deal.

I hold onto Moncada Espinoza and Benni if I can. If Fernandez becomes a possibility then Benni and Espinoza become available if need be.

[Kimmi]

Vaz had a year off. I think giving him plenty of time to get everything back to normal is worth it with his elite defense. He will hit too. Bold prediction? Give him a couple years like Yadi and he will be plenty good on offense as well.

Swihart is expendable in our system and should fetch a good starter as a possible headliner in a deal.

I hold onto Moncada Espinoza and Benni if I can. If Fernandez becomes a possibility then Benni and Espinoza become available if need be.

 

I don't disagree with any of this. It was really nice to see Vazquez get a couple of big hits last night. By all accounts, he has been working very hard on his hitting and it paid off last night.

[moonslav59]

I don't disagree with any of this. It was really nice to see Vazquez get a couple of big hits last night. By all accounts, he has been working very hard on his hitting and it paid off last night.

 

Agreed. I think Vaz deserves to be cut some slack. He had a very serious injury, missed a year, and (I'm guessing) probably spent most of his rehab tyime working on hise defense, building arm/should strength and throwing- not so much hitting, until recently.

[Nick]

I disagree on trading Benintendi over Swihart for various reasons.

 

I feel...

 

1) Benintendi is better than Swihart.

2) Vazquez is better at Catcher than Swihart.

3) Vazquez is better at Catcher than Young/Swihart are in LF, so LF is a higher need area 2 years out than C.

4) Swihart should bring more in return than Benintendi,

 

 

I completely agree on all your points.....very astute assessment with #3...Vaz will eventually become an adequate hitter, .250 hitter with high defensive marks....we need more power out of LF position and Swihart isn't it...his value lies in becoming a good offensive catcher, probably more pronounced in the National League where there's no DH and offensive catcher becomes more valuable.

[moonslav59]

The state of offense by the catching position in MLB today is horrible.

 

Only 7 MLB teams have a catcher OPS above .720.

 

14 teams have a catcher OPS below .650, and 8 are below .650.

 

Several winning teams have very poor offense at catcher:

 

30th CLE

28th TOR

27th NYM

24th LAD

22nd PITT

 

Swihart also has a pretty good arm (39% CS% in minors).

 

I think many teams are drooling over a chance to add him to their roster.

[moonslav59]

MLBTR reported that the Sox had inquired about J Fernandez and G Cole, but hung up when both teams asked for Bogey or Betts.

 

[southpaw777]

MLBTR reported that the Sox had inquired about J Fernandez and G Cole, but hung up when both teams asked for Bogey or Betts.

 

 

I imagine every team will start there with a few names that are realistic as well....betts and Bogey are part of the future foundation and will be going nowhere...the team has plenty of talent behind those two and should have zero issues getting a top starter if there is one available...

Gms know we have a stacked system, as well as a name or two on the main roster, not named Bogaerts or Betts, that could be had for the right price.

For Fernandez id give them any prospects not named Moncada.

[moonslav59]

I imagine every team will start there with a few names that are realistic as well....betts and Bogey are part of the future foundation and will be going nowhere...the team has plenty of talent behind those two and should have zero issues getting a top starter if there is one available...

Gms know we have a stacked system, as well as a name or two on the main roster, not named Bogaerts or Betts, that could be had for the right price.

For Fernandez id give them any prospects not named Moncada.

 

Yeah, the next guy they ask for is JBJ.

 

I doubt any other GM is really high on Holt, Hernandez or Marrero.

 

I doubt any GM is high on Owens, Elias, Johnson or Sullivan.

 

I doubt any contending team would trade an ace for Swihart, Devers plus any prospect not named Moncada, Espinoza or Benintendi.

 

We might not even get an ace for Swihart, Devers and Espinoza (plus mid levels).

 

Non contending teams don't seem to have an ace (no wonder- that's why they are non contending in the first place).

 

I don't see many choices.

 

Can you name a few?

[FredLynn]

Yeah, the next guy they ask for is JBJ.

 

I doubt any other GM is really high on Holt, Hernandez or Marrero.

 

I doubt any GM is high on Owens, Elias, Johnson or Sullivan.

 

I doubt any contending team would trade an ace for Swihart, Devers plus any prospect not named Moncada, Espinoza or Benintendi.

 

We might not even get an ace for Swihart, Devers and Espinoza (plus mid levels).

 

Non contending teams don't seem to have an ace (no wonder- that's why they are non contending in the first place).

 

I don't see many choices.

 

Can you name a few?

 

First, we don't need an ace. It would be nice, but what we need is a solid #2. Its not going to cost Betts/Bradley/Bogaerts to get that pitcher. We have the parts to obtain Fernandez (if the Marlins are willing to trade him, which I doubt as he still has another year after this year of team control) or another solid #2. Second, Owens-Elias-Johnson-Sullivan are useless appendages. Elias might have a little value; the others guys do not. But Benintendi and a few others could catch the eye of other GMs. Remember: no added pitching=no playoffs. Dombrowski knows this too.

[Dojji]

Our 1-2-3 in the roation is fine. Check out Price's numbers since april if you disagree. What we NEED, is depth. Not a top of the rotation guy, that's a waste of resources. Our 1-2-3 will do just fine as it is right now. We need solid rank and filers, not flashy headline guys.

[southpaw777]

Yeah, the next guy they ask for is JBJ.

 

I doubt any other GM is really high on Holt, Hernandez or Marrero.

 

I doubt any GM is high on Owens, Elias, Johnson or Sullivan.

 

I doubt any contending team would trade an ace for Swihart, Devers plus any prospect not named Moncada, Espinoza or Benintendi.

 

We might not even get an ace for Swihart, Devers and Espinoza (plus mid levels).

 

Non contending teams don't seem to have an ace (no wonder- that's why they are non contending in the first place).

 

I don't see many choices.

 

Can you name a few?

 

None of us really know how Gms value our prospects, so I really dont have anything but a somewhat educated guess from the info, rumors and facts all of us have access to.

 

I think teams Gms value players higher than some of us fans do. I know it will cost a lot, but I think Swihart still has great value. Espinoza and even Kopech has value to some GMs. He looked solid in his first outing this year...I know some GMs will overlook some of his attitude and chalk it up to being young and dumb. They see 100MPH with good control and secondary stuff. Some may look at a prospect and think he will blossom in another city other than Bostons bright lights. Thus having more value to them than us. It also depends on another teams needs as well

Right now some teams are still in it and some on the bubble...my guess is over the next 3-4 weeks more names will be available.

What I do know is DD has, and will keep inquiring about top names. Available or not.

Im not trying to overvalue or undervalue our kids. Im just trying to be realistic from both sides.

 

My top names i want, available or not. Realistic or not.

Only because i really dont know who will be available in another month...

 

Noah Syndergaard

Jose Fernandez

Chris Sale

Gerrit Cole

Edited June 22, 2016 by southpaw777

[moonslav59]

First, we don't need an ace. It would be nice, but what we need is a solid #2. Its not going to cost Betts/Bradley/Bogaerts to get that pitcher. We have the parts to obtain Fernandez (if the Marlins are willing to trade him, which I doubt as he still has another year after this year of team control) or another solid #2. Second, Owens-Elias-Johnson-Sullivan are useless appendages. Elias might have a little value; the others guys do not. But Benintendi and a few others could catch the eye of other GMs. Remember: no added pitching=no playoffs. Dombrowski knows this too.

 

1) I view Fernandez as an ace, so we may be arguing semantics on ace vs solid #2. I view an ace as a top 30 MLB pitcher or a top 15 AL pitcher. That being said, I'd be fine with a solid #2, whcich might mean a top 20 out of 30 #2, so basically, I'd be fine with a top 50 pitcher or maybe even a top 75 pitcher that is young and is promising enough to get better.

 

2) We should make the playoffs by just adding a solid RP'er and dependable #4 SP'er, but if we are to seriously try for a championship this year, Papi's last year, then we'll need more than that to be one of the top 3 favorites.

[moonslav59]

Our 1-2-3 in the roation is fine. Check out Price's numbers since april if you disagree. What we NEED, is depth. Not a top of the rotation guy, that's a waste of resources. Our 1-2-3 will do just fine as it is right now. We need solid rank and filers, not flashy headline guys.

 

I'm thinking beyond this year, and am willing to trade some of our extended future (in prospects) for a solid pitcher under team control for 3 1/2+ years at a decent cost and age. Once Papi retires, we're going to have to find new ways to win, and improving our rotation significantly seems like the best way to do that. Getting a decent 4th starter type is never my idea of a good plan, and usually if he's just a 2 month rental.. I'm tired of the Jake Peavys (who was maybe a #3), Aaron Cooks, Franklin Morales, Zach Stewarts, Eric Bedards, Brad Pennys, John Smoltzs and Paul Byrds. These guys rarely make a difference.

 

[moonslav59]

None of us really know how Gms value our prospects, so I really dont have anything but a somewhat educated guess from the info, rumors and facts all of us have access to.

 

I think teams Gms value players higher than some of us fans do. I know it will cost a lot, but I think Swihart still has great value. Espinoza and even Kopech has value to some GMs. He looked solid in his first outing this year...I know some GMs will overlook some of his attitude and chalk it up to being young and dumb. They see 100MPH with good control and secondary stuff. Some may look at a prospect and think he will blossom in another city other than Bostons bright lights. Thus having more value to them than us. It also depends on another teams needs as well

Right now some teams are still in it and some on the bubble...my guess is over the next 3-4 weeks more names will be available.

What I do know is DD has, and will keep inquiring about top names. Available or not.

Im not trying to overvalue or undervalue our kids. Im just trying to be realistic from both sides.

 

My top names i want, available or not. Realistic or not.

Only because i really dont know who will be available in another month...

 

Noah Syndergaard

Jose Fernandez

Chris Sale

Gerrit Cole

 

Last year, there were only about 5 or 6 teams surely out of it by the deadline, and with parity the way it is and the wild card opportunity, I doubt there are many GM who view themselves as out of it next year. I know teams would love to have Espinoza and Devers, but with them so far away from MLB and their vale still somewhat speculaive, I'm not sure we'd get back what I think these two are worth.

 

Now, I realize you have to give a lot to get top quality pitching under team control for 3+ years at a reasonable cost.

 

I realize a package of Swihart, Devers, Travis, Kopech plus one or two from Lakins, Dubon, Chavis, Basabe, Light, T Ball.... might not get the type of pitcher both of us are wishing for, and maybe the need to add Espinoza or Benintendi is a sure thing. I'd have to see who the pitcher is, before I agree to that big of a futures dump.

Concerning your list of 4 guys above, I'm not sure on the years of team control on these guys, but if it's 3 1/2 + years, I'd seriously consider offering Swihart, Espinoza or Benintendi, Devers and 2-3 others from my list above (basically anyone but Moncada).

 

You are right about GMs valuing players much differently than us fans here. One example was the rumors of so many GMs calling about JBJ. Some fans severely devalued JBJ after just 500 PAs of poor offense at the ML level. GMs look beyond certain size sample sizes and listen to their scouts.

[southpaw777]

What I love about the red sox catchers is BOTH are defense first and both are solid behind the plate in all aspects...When we got Leon he was an all defense no bat catcher...like most catchers who concentrate on defense first, the offense was lagging behind. It looks like Leons bat has obviously gotten better....this is exactly what I see Vaz doing in the next year or two.

Leon, like Vaz, seemed to have good pitch recognition and usually had good ABs, just not a lot of hits. This is why I see Vaz taking the same path offensively. Neither are power threats, but i see both as solid line drive gap to gap hitters.

I love this catching tandum we have with Vaz and Leon...Great D and the offense will be there for both. Both in their 20s and under control

[moonslav59]

Hanigan is pretty good on defense as well, if he could just learn to catch a knuckler.

[Nick]

It's pretty brutal when Hanigan is paired with Wright. He has as much trouble catching it as hitters have hitting it....

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

Vazquez to be demoted?

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/49801/red-sox-facing-potentially-difficult-decision-on-catchers

[Spudboy]

Vazquez to be demoted?

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/49801/red-sox-facing-potentially-difficult-decision-on-catchers

 

Possibly.

 

With Swihart out for a while and only Butler as a back up the Sox need to be smart here.

[moonslav59]

Vazquez to be demoted?

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/49801/red-sox-facing-potentially-difficult-decision-on-catchers

 

Good read.

 

No mention of Swihart due to his injury, but eventually his name will once again join the who will be our catcher discussion mix.

 

I could see keeping 3 catchers on the 25 man roster, if one was Swihart, since he can play LF 9a high need area right now), but I think it's going to be hard keeping Vazquez and Hanigan both on the 25 man roster. It will make PH'ing for our weaker hitting catchers easier, but with a DH that only plays DH, and Holt still in rehab, we lack the flexibility many other teams enjoy. I just don't see 3 catchers as a likely solution.

[bosoxmal]

My enthusiasm for Vazquez is waning. Except that noone eslse can catch Wright, I don't he's that much of any improvement over Leon or Hanigan. If this was Sept and we were fighting for a spot, I would certainly go with Leon 3 out of every 4 games. Right now, I see them splitting the time more often than one would have expected, and maybe will Leon wil slump his way back to Pawtucket. For the team's sake, I hope he gets even better.