Sox Pitching Staff Discussion

[mvp 78]

No, there's not really one significant incident. Little things that seem to draw controversy or 'bother' his teammates, like barking at the umps a lot over strike calls, things he said regarding his contract negotiations at the beginning of the year, or statements like the ones he made this postseason regarding 'circumstances' or 'boots'.

 

They may be nothing. A fellow poster who lives in Canada seems to think that he rubs people the wrong way and that the Jays really don't want him back. Again, it may be nothing, or it may be something.

 

Pedroia and Papi love to argue with the umps, so maybe he'd fit in well here?

 

I think a lot of the clubhouse issues for the Jays are due to their manager. He seems like a pretty big dip s***.

[bosoxmal]

I see no reason this pitching staff (both starters and pen) will be any better this coming year than it was in 2016. I base that on the past performances of acquisitions and those let go. Someone upstairs is either having extremely bad luck when it comes to pitching evaluation, oi he has no isea what constitutes a good pitcher and what doesn't. The most desirable commodity in the player market is left handed pitching. Think Lester, Hill, Miller. With those three we would have walked thru the AL series, and probably the WS as well. Add that to the fact we are not developing any pictching in the minors. LH or RH!

[mvp 78]

I see no reason this pitching staff (both starters and pen) will be any better this coming year than it was in 2016. I base that on the past performances of acquisitions and those let go. Someone upstairs is either having extremely bad luck when it comes to pitching evaluation, oi he has no isea what constitutes a good pitcher and what doesn't. The most desirable commodity in the player market is left handed pitching. Think Lester, Hill, Miller. With those three we would have walked thru the AL series, and probably the WS as well. Add that to the fact we are not developing any pictching in the minors. LH or RH!

 

I think Porcello will have a little bit of regressing and Price will get a little bit better. There's zero chance Wright pitches as well as he did last year. I can see Rodriguez and Pomeranz pitching a little better, but it's not a given.

[moonslav59]

I see no reason this pitching staff (both starters and pen) will be any better this coming year than it was in 2016. I base that on the past performances of acquisitions and those let go. Someone upstairs is either having extremely bad luck when it comes to pitching evaluation, oi he has no isea what constitutes a good pitcher and what doesn't. The most desirable commodity in the player market is left handed pitching. Think Lester, Hill, Miller. With those three we would have walked thru the AL series, and probably the WS as well. Add that to the fact we are not developing any pictching in the minors. LH or RH!

 

We traded Espi and have Kopech and Groome.

[Dojji]

I think Porcello will have a little bit of regressing and Price will get a little bit better. There's zero chance Wright pitches as well as he did last year. I can see Rodriguez and Pomeranz pitching a little better, but it's not a given.

 

I wouldn't bet any large sums on Wright pitching like an ace again this year, but anything that has been done once has a chance of happening again, so "zero chance" is a bit of hyperbole.

[Eddy Ballgame]

I wouldn't bet any large sums on Wright pitching like an ace again this year, but anything that has been done once has a chance of happening again, so "zero chance" is a bit of hyperbole.

 

At worst, he should give them quite a few quality starts if he's healthy.

[Dojji]

Yeah that's what I'm hoping for. Lots of innings will be great, if we get lots of innings and sub-4, I'll be thrilled.

[moonslav59]

Wright has actually did pretty well before 2016. He had a 3.96 ERA as a starter last year in 9 starts.

 

Over his 35 career MLB starts:

 

16-11 3.52 (1.24 WHIP)

 

AAA: 3.67 in 52 starts

AA: 3.51 ERA in 50 starts

 

I kept hearing the same thing about Wake. Nobody expects a great knuckleballer to repeat his greatness.

[moonslav59]

At worst, he should give them quite a few quality starts if he's healthy.

 

I actually think Buch or Pom will be in the pen, if everyone is healthy.

 

Wright's my 4th starter right now.

[Dojji]

Wright has actually did pretty well before 2016. He had a 3.96 ERA as a starter last year in 9 starts.

 

Over his 35 career MLB starts:

 

16-11 3.52 (1.24 WHIP)

 

AAA: 3.67 in 52 starts

AA: 3.51 ERA in 50 starts

 

I kept hearing the same thing about Wake. Nobody expects a great knuckleballer to repeat his greatness.

 

I was arguing that all last offseason campaigning for Wright to get the open spot in the rotation. Validation is a wonderful feeling sometimes

 

I think that Wright is a better knuckleballer than Wakefield. He has a greater range of speeds with his knuckleball (he throws a Dickey-style hard knuckler and a Wakefield style slowpitch knuckler) and he has a more-or-less-average fastball to go with it rather than Wake's 75mph offering. The overall package is a much better set of tools in the toolshed to keep hitters off balance than Wake ever had.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Dojji

[bosoxmal]

I actually think Buch or Pom will be in the pen, if everyone is healthy.

 

Wright's my 4th starter right now.

I feel almost the opposite. I think Wright belongs in the pen. Long relief, omce thru the order, no more. Buch looked pretty good. I do wish some of these guys wpuld get back to a real windup. Both Buch and Price lost about 3mph on their fasball instead of winding up, and "letting the f***er fly."

[Eddy Ballgame]

I was arguing that all last offseason campaigning for Wright to get the open spot in the rotation. Validation is a wonderful feeling sometimes

 

I think that Wright is a better knuckleballer than Wakefield. He has a greater range of speeds with his knuckleball (he throws a Dickey-style hard knuckler and a Wakefield style slowpitch knuckler) and he has a more-or-less-average fastball to go with it rather than Wake's 75mph offering. The overall package is a much better set of tools in the toolshed to keep hitters off balance than Wake ever had.

 

I agree that Wright is much more similar to Dickey than Wake. Let's just hope Farrell keeps him off the base paths next year.

[mvp 78]

I wouldn't bet any large sums on Wright pitching like an ace again this year, but anything that has been done once has a chance of happening again, so "zero chance" is a bit of hyperbole.

 

Everything on here is a bit of hyperbole, no?

[Spudboy]

I was arguing that all last offseason campaigning for Wright to get the open spot in the rotation. Validation is a wonderful feeling sometimes

 

I think that Wright is a better knuckleballer than Wakefield. He has a greater range of speeds with his knuckleball (he throws a Dickey-style hard knuckler and a Wakefield style slowpitch knuckler) and he has a more-or-less-average fastball to go with it rather than Wake's 75mph offering. The overall package is a much better set of tools in the toolshed to keep hitters off balance than Wake ever had.

 

You were not alone as I recall.

 

Also, the bolded sentence is the key from what I have heard from old time knucklers.

[moonslav59]

I was arguing that all last offseason campaigning for Wright to get the open spot in the rotation. Validation is a wonderful feeling sometimes

 

I think that Wright is a better knuckleballer than Wakefield. He has a greater range of speeds with his knuckleball (he throws a Dickey-style hard knuckler and a Wakefield style slowpitch knuckler) and he has a more-or-less-average fastball to go with it rather than Wake's 75mph offering. The overall package is a much better set of tools in the toolshed to keep hitters off balance than Wake ever had.

 

I was one of Wake's biggest defenders vs the softy the clown's onslaught on that "other site".

 

I have always wanted Wright to get a solid chance at starting. I was bummed when he got hurt last year after 9 pretty good starts. Too many people right off knucklers (pun intended).

 

Wright had a great first half to 2016. I think he deserves an inside track to the rotation.

[moonslav59]

I feel almost the opposite. I think Wright belongs in the pen. Long relief, omce thru the order, no more. Buch looked pretty good. I do wish some of these guys wpuld get back to a real windup. Both Buch and Price lost about 3mph on their fasball instead of winding up, and "letting the f***er fly."

 

Bringing in a knuckler might work to throw off the opps timing, but I think Wright could prove to be too good to be in the pen.

[Dojji]

Wright's track record so far in his short career is that he tacks a full run onto his ERA when he appears in relief. It would be a criminal misuse of Steven Wright to try to pitch him out of the pen to start the season.

 

You know why this is even a debate right? You know why everyone keeps saying "6 good starters." It's because Clay Buchholz has fooled us again. AGAIN! Always that man finds a way to do just enough actual work to fool the gullible into thinkiing we can count on him. You'd think the results year after year would dissuade all but the most brain-dead but -- well, here we are again! Actual intelligent people, people whose baseball acumen I acknowledge and respect, somehow fall into the small sample size trap that is Buchholz, over and ov er again, buying the good bits and ignoring the bad ones, wich *they themselves know is bad sense* if they stop and think about it -- but where Buchholz is concerned they never seem to. And I have literally no idea how he keeps doing this to actually intelligent fans. 7 straight years he keeps fooling us, and he just did it again. It's literally unbelievable. How many times does this parasite have to fool us before we admit that we were fooled?

 

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me? This is number 7. What the hell does that say about us?

 

If you can start a guy like Wright who's a great bet to get 180-200 innings of acceptable ball, or you can start a boom-or-bust-and-then-hurt guy like Clay Buchholz, you start Wright 25 times out of 10. That is NOT hyperbole. That is simply what you do. Wright >>>>>>> Buchholz as a vector of present pitching value for this franchise. AINEC. I cannot process the concept of why I seem to be in the minority on this

 

If Clay Buchholz manages to undeservedly weasel his way into the rotation once more even with 5 other ACTUALLY decent options, and I honest-to-God have no way of knowing how he actually manages to keep doing that right in the face of the most knowledgeable fans in all of baseball, I really hope it's at Pomeranz' expense. At least Pom has extensive esperience as an effective RP

Edited November 2, 2016 by Dojji

[Nick]

Wright's track record so far in his short career is that he tacks a full run onto his ERA when he appears in relief. It would be a criminal misuse of Steven Wright to try to pitch him out of the pen to start the season.

 

You know why this is even a debate right? You know why everyone keeps saying "6 good starters." It's because Clay Buchholz has fooled us again. AGAIN! Always that man finds a way to do just enough actual work to fool the gullible into thinkiing we can count on him. You'd think the results year after year would dissuade all but the most brain-dead but -- well, here we are again! Actual intelligent people, people whose baseball acumen I acknowledge and respect, somehow fall into the small sample size trap that is Buchholz, over and ov er again, buying the good bits and ignoring the bad ones, wich *they themselves know is bad sense* if they stop and think about it -- but where Buchholz is concerned they never seem to. And I have literally no idea how he keeps doing this to actually intelligent fans. 7 straight years he keeps fooling us, and he just did it again. It's literally unbelievable. How many times does this parasite have to fool us before we admit that we were fooled?

 

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me? This is number 7. What the hell does that say about us?

 

If you can start a guy like Wright who's a great bet to get 180-200 innings of acceptable ball, or you can start a boom-or-bust-and-then-hurt guy like Clay Buchholz, you start Wright 25 times out of 10. That is NOT hyperbole. That is simply what you do. Wright >>>>>>> Buchholz as a vector of present pitching value for this franchise. AINEC. I cannot process the concept of why I seem to be in the minority on this

 

If Clay Buchholz manages to undeservedly weasel his way into the rotation once more even with 5 other ACTUALLY decent options, and I honest-to-God have no way of knowing how he actually manages to keep doing that right in the face of the most knowledgeable fans in all of baseball, I really hope it's at Pomeranz' expense. At least Pom has extensive esperience as an effective RP

 

I bet 90% of fans would love to move away from Buchasshurtz. It's more of not having anyone in the farm ready to come in. Owens, Johnson, etc have not taken steps to assure the Sox FO that we have enough depth. And Clay as a consequence, weasels another $13M. Shame on Sox for not developing major league pitching talent.

[Nick]

Is it wrong to think that basically we traded Lester for Porcello?

 

Players 15 16 17 18 19 20

Lester 26M 26M 26M 26M 26M 26M

Procello 13M 21M 21M 21M 21M

 

It remains to be seen who got the better deal....Lester has the edge so far...mainly from 2015 season. 2016 was pretty close, not counting the playoffs.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Nick

[Bellhorn04]

Is it wrong to think that basically we traded Lester for Porcello?

 

Players 15 16 17 18 19 20

Lester 26M 26M 26M 26M 26M 26M

Procello 13M 21M 21M 21M 21M

 

It remains to be seen who got the better deal....Lester has the edge so far...mainly from 2015 season. 2016 was pretty close, not counting the playoffs.

 

I've said that all along. (Although, of course, we could have had both.)

[moonslav59]

I've said that all along. (Although, of course, we could have had both.)

 

We could have also had ERod and Miller.

[Dojji]

I know hot stove is the domain of coulda-woulda-shoulda, but this Miller stuff is getting a bit old.

[moonslav59]

I know hot stove is the domain of coulda-woulda-shoulda, but this Miller stuff is getting a bit old.

 

Hard to let go when Miller is pitching so well, but your point is well taken.

[sk7326]

Miller is an amazing reliever - and the Sox staff deserves a ton of credit for unleashing it.

 

At the same time - the trade of Miller was a homerun - the best trade of the Cherington administration ... you make that every day of the week. The principle of not signing a reliever to that sort of contract is sound - but Miller has proven to be the rare bird who can be truly impactful. He can't start (his command of the slider is not good enough) but he is perfect for his job.

[moonslav59]

Miller is an amazing reliever - and the Sox staff deserves a ton of credit for unleashing it.

 

At the same time - the trade of Miller was a homerun - the best trade of the Cherington administration ... you make that every day of the week. The principle of not signing a reliever to that sort of contract is sound - but Miller has proven to be the rare bird who can be truly impactful. He can't start (his command of the slider is not good enough) but he is perfect for his job.

 

I didn't think he was overpaid. He pitches more inning than Kimbrel, and we traded 4 prospects so we could pay Kimbrel $13M a year.

 

Miller got $9M x 4.

[sk7326]

I didn't think he was overpaid. He pitches more inning than Kimbrel, and we traded 4 prospects so we could pay Kimbrel $13M a year.

 

Miller got $9M x 4.

 

Paying relievers that much is hard to stomach on principle - and his emergence as a multi inning weapon is a fairly new development. I'd pay him for that work now.

[Dojji]

When starters can earn upwards to $30M, $10M for top relievers is not that much of a stretch. By comparison when top starters were making $15M 10 years ago (yes just 10) and the salary cap was barely over half what it is today, closers were making around 6-8. If anything the ratio favors starters more than it ever has.

 

There is more money in baseball right now than there pretty much ever was. Salaries are going to scale accordingly. I recommend that people get used to the idea.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Dojji

[sk7326]

When starters can earn upwards to $30M, $10M for top relievers is not that much of a stretch. By comparison when top starters were making $15M 10 years ago (yes just 10) and the salary cap was barely over half what it is today, closers were making around 6-8. If anything the ratio favors starters more than it ever has.

 

There is more money in baseball right now than there pretty much ever was. Salaries are going to scale accordingly. I recommend that people get used to the idea.

 

Relievers have so much volatility within and between seasons that as a cohort they are just less reliable in ways that starters are not. you are right about the importance of the role - but so much success in the pen is just getting lucky that paying a ton for it is a gamble. Very few of them offer certainty.

 

The money who cares - but the years is more important. A 4 year commitment to any reliever is hard to stomach.

[Dojji]

Yes, you've described the only valid reason why relievers are paid less than starters. Good job. Now, what does that have to do with the fact that a rising tide is floating all boats, including those of relief pitchers? Not too bloody well much.

 

There's more money and more demand in baseball than ever and salary prices will reflect that. Relievers deserve their share of the pie. Basic economics. The relievers you talk about rarely make more than league minimum anyway, the ones that get paid are the guys who *have* shown some consistency.

 

(I do agree that the years are more important when it comes to RP. But that has nothing to do with the salary component per se).

[moonslav59]

Paying relievers that much is hard to stomach on principle - and his emergence as a multi inning weapon is a fairly new development. I'd pay him for that work now.

 

But, he was "multi-inning" before the Yankees signed him, and they didn't have to give up 4 prospects or even one draft pick to sign him for 4 years at less than what Kimbrel makes in 3 years.