Sox Pitching Staff Discussion

[mvp 78]

I don't know if Papelbon is being discussed elsewhere, but personally, I think picking him up is worth serious consideration. I believe that any attitude issues that he has had with other teams would not carry over to the Red Sox. If he is picked up, it would have to be made clear to both Paps and Kimbrel that Paps will not be the team's closer, and may not even be the set up man. If Paps is not okay with that, then don't sign him.

 

Yes, I'm aware of his less than stellar numbers this year.

 

You are really into Farrell's off field management. I think bringing Papelbon in would really test that. He's not a likable person and actively tries to annoy his teammates. Maybe he'd straighten up and fly right because it's his last chance? I don't see it though.

[SoxnCycles]

To me, it was more about losing the extremely high ceiling of Espi and not the half season sample size of very good pitching by PomPom before the trade.

 

I pointed out how Pomeranz and his low cost for the 2.4 years of team control could save enough money on our luxury budget to allow us to make strong plays for some great pen help, a big hitter and/or a big (ex[expensive) SP'er (via trade).

 

He's certainly an asset on the current team. I never meant to imply he was another Dempster- type. He's better than that - or at least projects to be so. My position has always been to build up the rotation from the 1-2 slot not the 4-5 slot. Building at the 3 has some merit when you look at the cost for a 1-2 these days.

 

Who knows, Pom Pom may end up pitching like a number 2, and I don't mean the doo doo kind.

 

 

Yup, he's been much better since his stinker against the Angels.

His IP totals still worry me, but hopefully, he's healthy enough to keep it going.

 

If E-Rod is out for any length of time, the Sox are going to need Pomeranz to consistently pitch well.

[SoxnCycles]

I don't know if Papelbon is being discussed elsewhere, but personally, I think picking him up is worth serious consideration. I believe that any attitude issues that he has had with other teams would not carry over to the Red Sox. If he is picked up, it would have to be made clear to both Paps and Kimbrel that Paps will not be the team's closer, and may not even be the set up man. If Paps is not okay with that, then don't sign him.

 

Yes, I'm aware of his less than stellar numbers this year.

 

They really need to do something with the bullpen.

And I don't want to give up more prospect to fix it.

i think Papelbon is worth a look, as long as he knows ahead of time what his role is going to be.

All he would cost is money.

He can't be any worse than Abad.

[Spudboy]

I don't know if Papelbon is being discussed elsewhere, but personally, I think picking him up is worth serious consideration. I believe that any attitude issues that he has had with other teams would not carry over to the Red Sox. If he is picked up, it would have to be made clear to both Paps and Kimbrel that Paps will not be the team's closer, and may not even be the set up man. If Paps is not okay with that, then don't sign him.

 

Yes, I'm aware of his less than stellar numbers this year.

 

I agree. I just wonder what BP piece will be jettisoned to make room for him?

 

I suspect that he will land with Theo.

[Kimmi]

You are really into Farrell's off field management. I think bringing Papelbon in would really test that. He's not a likable person and actively tries to annoy his teammates. Maybe he'd straighten up and fly right because it's his last chance? I don't see it though.

 

The holdovers, whom I believe are down to Clay, Pedroia, and Ortiz, are all on board with bringing Papelbon back. Think about it. What issues did he really have with the clubhouse while he was here?

[Dojji]

Do you think for one second that Papelbon is going to be happy setting up for Kimbrel, Kimmi?

[Kimmi]

They really need to do something with the bullpen.

And I don't want to give up more prospect to fix it.

i think Papelbon is worth a look, as long as he knows ahead of time what his role is going to be.

All he would cost is money.

He can't be any worse than Abad.

 

Agreed, and it wouldn't even be much money.

 

He also gets a very short leash, both on and off the field. If he doesn't work out for any reason, it would be easy enough to cut ties with him.

[Kimmi]

I agree. I just wonder what BP piece will be jettisoned to make room for him?

 

I suspect that he will land with Theo.

 

Probably Abad, no?

 

I suspect that you are right about him landing with Theo.

[Spudboy]

The holdovers, whom I believe are down to Clay, Pedroia, and Ortiz, are all on board with bringing Papelbon back. Think about it. What issues did he really have with the clubhouse while he was here?

 

Issues? The issue I am thinking of is his remarks comparing Boston and Philly fans. That's about it. If he comes here and sucks he will hear about it very soon.

 

If he comes here and pitches well, no one will care what he said in Philly.

[Spudboy]

Probably Abad, no?

 

I suspect that you are right about him landing with Theo.

 

Abad is my guess as well but then we just wasted whatever resource was spent to acquire the stiff and lost Tommy Lane to boot.

 

Who would be the Loogey?

[Kimmi]

Do you think for one second that Papelbon is going to be happy setting up for Kimbrel, Kimmi?

 

As opposed to his other options? 'Happy' might not be the right term, but he has said that returning to Boston is his top choice, and he has to know that we already have a closer. I think he would be willing to accept a 'lesser' role to have a chance to pitch for a playoff contender.

[Dojji]

If your late innings are good enough you can use Ross as the LOOGY

[mvp 78]

The holdovers, whom I believe are down to Clay, Pedroia, and Ortiz, are all on board with bringing Papelbon back. Think about it. What issues did he really have with the clubhouse while he was here?

http://deadspin.com/5388660/coming-soon-jonathan-papelbons-dubious-taste-in-cinema

[Kimmi]

Issues? The issue I am thinking of is his remarks comparing Boston and Philly fans. That's about it. If he comes here and sucks he will hear about it very soon.

 

If he comes here and pitches well, no one will care what he said in Philly.

 

Right, that was a stupid thing for him to say. He is not the brightest bulb in the bullpen. I don't see that as being a clubhouse issue though.

[Dojji]

Could be a media issue. You know what our media is like if they have a story they think they can beat to death.

[mvp 78]

Right, that was a stupid thing for him to say. He is not the brightest bulb in the bullpen. I don't see that as being a clubhouse issue though.

 

When teammates have to start commenting for you to the media on why you are grabbing your crotch and fighting teammates, it becomes a clubhouse issue.

[Kimmi]

Could be a media issue. You know what our media is like if they have a story they think they can beat to death.

 

This is a very valid point. It could definitely turn into a media circus.

[Bellhorn04]

Do you think for one second that Papelbon is going to be happy setting up for Kimbrel, Kimmi?

 

He knows he's not going to be the closer. He certainly wouldn't be taking over for Chapman with the Cubs.

[sk7326]

I don't see a situation where Papelbon can be remotely helpful. He has little experience in uncontrolled situations and he was awful this season.

[Kimmi]

When teammates have to start commenting for you to the media on why you are grabbing your crotch and fighting teammates, it becomes a clubhouse issue.

 

If Farrell, Buchholz, Pedroia, and Papi are all on board with having him back, I can't imagine that he was a clubhouse problem. That said, Dojji's point about creating a media storm is valid.

[Wade Boggs]

The holdovers, whom I believe are down to Clay, Pedroia, and Ortiz, are all on board with bringing Papelbon back. Think about it. What issues did he really have with the clubhouse while he was here?

 

None. But how will he be like coming back here. He had plenty of issues in the PHI/Was, clubhouse's. I heard on Sports radio WEEI, the big issue was his political stance. His backing of Trump, talking about it everyday in the clubhouse. I don't care if he signs or not. Still think he signs with Cubs anyway. I also heard that Farrell did not speak to Pap yesterday. They spoke to his agent. This time of year, you hear so many things.. Who knows what's true... Do I want Pap? Yes? But on a short leash. A very short one.

[moonslav59]

We traded potential talent for developed talent in a year when we had every chance to make the playoffs and teams do that ALL the frigging time.

 

I get why they did it. Telling me why they did it doesn't help me to like the deal anymore than I did.

 

 

Espinosa is not THAT special.

 

He may be. He may not.

 

He was "special" enough to be rated higher than any other Sox pitcher his age has been for as long as I can remember.

 

I realize the value was highly speculative. I don't need to be preached on how many fail. I, personally, think he was THAT SPECIAL, but I like the way you have already set up your covering up that it was still a good deal, even if Espi turns into the next Pedro. I'm not projecting Pedro greatness for Espi, but his ceiling was and still is pretty damn high.

 

I know Pom Pom is much more of a known commodity and less speculative, despite the fact that his sample size of goodness was only based on about 16 starts. I'm not projecting failure for Pomeranz. I think he will help our staff for 3 playoff cycles. I'm glad we didn't get a rental 5th starter type. I'm glad is salary is low. That will help us rebuild this winter when we try to make up for the loss of Papi, Uehara and Tazawa.

 

Again, it's not about Pomeranz to me; it's about Espinoza. I'm a patient kind of guy. I would have loved to have waited for 3-9 years to see who he becomes.

 

Note: the Sox talent evaluators and developers have changed over time, so assuming no quality Sox pitching prospect can ever turn into a great pitcher may be based on faulty assumptions.

[cp176]

Right after his good start, a ton of B level media were throwing shade on his performance. I don't get it. Some people will NEVER be happy about that trade no matter how it turns out.

 

you are right

[cp176]

Pomeranz was awesome in his last outing. Hopefully, he will continue pitching like that.

 

Got to have faith right?

[cp176]

We traded potential talent for developed talent in a year when we had every chance to make the playoffs and teams do that ALL the frigging time.

 

I get why they did it. Telling me why they did it doesn't help me to like the deal anymore than I did.

 

 

Espinosa is not THAT special.

 

He may be. He may not.

 

He was "special" enough to be rated higher than any other Sox pitcher his age has been for as long as I can remember.

 

I realize the value was highly speculative. I don't need to be preached on how many fail. I, personally, think he was THAT SPECIAL, but I like the way you have already set up your covering up that it was still a good deal, even if Espi turns into the next Pedro. I'm not projecting Pedro greatness for Espi, but his ceiling was and still is pretty damn high.

 

I know Pom Pom is much more of a known commodity and less speculative, despite the fact that his sample size of goodness was only based on about 16 starts. I'm not projecting failure for Pomeranz. I think he will help our staff for 3 playoff cycles. I'm glad we didn't get a rental 5th starter type. I'm glad is salary is low. That will help us rebuild this winter when we try to make up for the loss of Papi, Uehara and Tazawa.

 

Again, it's not about Pomeranz to me; it's about Espinoza. I'm a patient kind of guy. I would have loved to have waited for 3-9 years to see who he becomes.

 

Note: the Sox talent evaluators and developers have changed over time, so assuming no quality Sox pitching prospect can ever turn into a great pitcher may be based on faulty assumptions.

 

This has nothing to do with someone being right or wrong to me. i honestly hope that Espinoza becomes the great pitcher that some think that he might become. I'm patient as well but my time frame is obviously different than yours. If Pomeranz is able to pitch to a mid rotation or even higher level for us, it is quite possible that he will be responsible for between 40 and 50 wins for us at the major league level before Espinoza throws a ball in the majors. In my opinion, it was a good deal today as well as going forward. I don't agree with you but I value your opinion and realize that there are supporting arguments for either side. I don't think that this will be the last time the Sox use their young prospects as assets either. We can debate how we should use them until the cows come home, but we aren't making the ultimate decisions.

[sk7326]

This has nothing to do with someone being right or wrong to me. i honestly hope that Espinoza becomes the great pitcher that some think that he might become. I'm patient as well but my time frame is obviously different than yours. If Pomeranz is able to pitch to a mid rotation or even higher level for us, it is quite possible that he will be responsible for between 40 and 50 wins for us at the major league level before Espinoza throws a ball in the majors. In my opinion, it was a good deal today as well as going forward. I don't agree with you but I value your opinion and realize that there are supporting arguments for either side. I don't think that this will be the last time the Sox use their young prospects as assets either. We can debate how we should use them until the cows come home, but we aren't making the ultimate decisions.

 

 

This reasoning is sound. But given how many on boards like this snivel about why this organization cannot find good (sniff!) pitching in the minors ... there's your answer. Can't have it both ways.

 

My favorite part of the trade was one place where I read pointing to his 4+ ERA at Greenville as evidence he wasn't that good - which was a bit of a howler.

Edited August 17, 2016 by sk7326

[bosoxmal]

My Suggestion of the Day for DD. Stop picking up bargains from the NL. You'd be better off getting them from Portland!

[oldtimer]

This has nothing to do with someone being right or wrong to me. i honestly hope that Espinoza becomes the great pitcher that some think that he might become. I'm patient as well but my time frame is obviously different than yours. If Pomeranz is able to pitch to a mid rotation or even higher level for us, it is quite possible that he will be responsible for between 40 and 50 wins for us at the major league level before Espinoza throws a ball in the majors. In my opinion, it was a good deal today as well as going forward. I don't agree with you but I value your opinion and realize that there are supporting arguments for either side. I don't think that this will be the last time the Sox use their young prospects as assets either. We can debate how we should use them until the cows come home, but we aren't making the ultimate decisions.

 

A well balanced and thoughtful argument. I agree with trading a potentially star pitcher for one that is competent now, especially since we are definitely a contender this year and likely into the near future. You do have to give something up to get something useful and DD made a considered opinion. Espinoza wouldn't have helped up this year and probably not next either.

[Station 13]

Papelbon sucks, why are they even considering a player with bad disposition?

[mvp 78]

My Suggestion of the Day for DD. Stop picking up bargains from the NL. You'd be better off getting them from Portland!

 

Kopech to pitch in the bullpen down the stretch? Ok!