Sox Pitching Staff Discussion

[Spudboy]

Moon has posted about Matt Moore in another thread, I believe. Now I have no idea why he has not performed closer to what he was before TJS but he is locked up for super cheap money.

 

Contrast one year of Buch at $13 mil with about $13. mil of Moore for about 2.5 years. Which is a better value? Which is the lesser risk?

[moonslav59]

And you can say that as much as you want. It does not change the fact that Buch has been a waste of time and a waste of money this season.

 

So in my view, anyone opposed to the "no brainer" 2016 extension has been proven correct. Regardless of value expected or good intent.

 

Incorrect. The best "hindsight choice would have been to take the option and trade him.

 

This was what several of us posters suggested last winter.

 

If you see what some clowns with worse injury histories and performance records got paid, then Buch was tradeable and should have been.

[moonslav59]

Moon has posted about Matt Moore in another thread, I believe. Now I have no idea why he has not performed closer to what he was before TJS but he is locked up for super cheap money.

 

Contrast one year of Buch at $13 mil with about $13. mil of Moore for about 2.5 years. Which is a better value? Which is the lesser risk?

 

Sometimes it takes longer for a pitcher to comeback fro TJS. Sometimes pitchers never return to "form". Moore would be a big risk, but maybe a good risk.

[S5Dewey]

Picking up the option was as close to a no-brainer as one gets. It's easy to say in July of 2016 that it wasn't a good idea but hindsight is always 20-20.

 

At the time it looked like we'd be getting 1/2 of a season of a pitcher with ace quality for $13M. If one figures that a true ace is worth $26M/year $13M is about the going price for a half year. The problem is that the Sox didn't plan for what to do in that other 1/2 year. And the bigger problem is that Buch isn't earning that $13M this year but that was unforeseeable.

[S5Dewey]

Incorrect. The best "hindsight choice would have been to take the option and trade him.

 

This was what several of us posters suggested last winter.

 

If you see what some clowns with worse injury histories and performance records got paid, then Buch was tradeable and should have been.

 

IMHO Buch is one of the few players someone else might want whom we'd be willing to part with.

[moonslav59]

"It's also a simple and indisputable fact that WAR isn't the be-all end-all in valuations, especially in real life. Wanna know why? Because an ace in run-prevention for 120 innings means more often than not, a sub-standard pitcher covering for the rest of the IP that pitcher fails to provide. You can't see value in a vacuum when a player does not provide full-time production."

 

Forget WAR for a minute. Let's put it this way, in today's market, ff we could acquire a SP'er right now that would give us 18 starts (starting today) and give us a 3.26 ERA (130 ERA+) in 113 IP, how much would that be worth in dollars to you? No prospects needed. Just sign this guy knowing you get just 18 starts.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

Picking up the option was as close to a no-brainer as one gets. It's easy to say in July of 2016 that it wasn't a good idea but hindsight is always 20-20.

 

At the time it looked like we'd be getting 1/2 of a season of a pitcher with ace quality for $13M. If one figures that a true ace is worth $26M/year $13M is about the going price for a half year. The problem is that the Sox didn't plan for what to do in that other 1/2 year. And the bigger problem is that Buch isn't earning that $13M this year but that was unforeseeable.

 

But it was hardly a given that he would provide "ace quality"

[moonslav59]

Picking up the option was as close to a no-brainer as one gets. It's easy to say in July of 2016 that it wasn't a good idea but hindsight is always 20-20.

 

At the time it looked like we'd be getting 1/2 of a season of a pitcher with ace quality for $13M. If one figures that a true ace is worth $26M/year $13M is about the going price for a half year. The problem is that the Sox didn't plan for what to do in that other 1/2 year. And the bigger problem is that Buch isn't earning that $13M this year but that was unforeseeable.

 

Actually, the Sox did plan on one SP'er not working out, and Wright filled that hole miraculously. The problem was our plan from our 7th starter down failed miserably. ERo'd injury and Kelly's implosion plus no great half year from Buch exposed the whole quantity vs quality plan for the bottom of our rotation.

 

Yeah, maybe one out of 8 might turn out like Wright, but when you need 2 or 3 out of 8 mediocre-at-best SP'ers to perform well, your plan is flawed.

[Nick]

A team that's gambled on Castillo, Pablo, Craig and Hanley can certainly gamble on $13M for 2 1/2 years of SP contract.

[moonslav59]

But it was hardly a given that he would provide "ace quality"

 

Exactly the reason why we should have taken the extension and traded him for the best possible return, even if just for a very promising single- A pitcher.

 

Let someone else take the "gamble".

[a700hitter]

Exactly the reason why we should have taken the extension and traded him for the best possible return, even if just for a very promising single- A pitcher.

 

Let someone else take the "gamble".

i agree with this 100%. We needed to take a different direction. His 1 year option was a good asset for the trading market.

[moonslav59]

i agree with this 100%. We needed to take a different direction. His 1 year option was a good asset for the trading market.

 

Not many agreed at the time. Most were for just not taking the option, which made no sense to me, as we surely could have traded him for a very good prospect or two. Almost all the rest were for taking the option and praying he stayed healthy all year.

[cp176]

Not many agreed at the time. Most were for just not taking the option, which made no sense to me, as we surely could have traded him for a very good prospect or two. Almost all the rest were for taking the option and praying he stayed healthy all year.

 

Being the eternal Red Sox optimist and someone who was brought up with the expression wait until next year, have to say that I was hoping that we might catch Buck for a half a season's worth of real pitcher. Having lived though it for a while now, I realize what a joke that was. With as little as he appears to have left, he could and might stay healthy for the rest of this year but it still won't help much I'm afraid. His 92-93 mph fastball served up directly in to everybody's hit zone is nothing short of cannon fodder at this point. If we are going to be heading in a different direction, we would be better off without him.

[Spudboy]

Incorrect. The best "hindsight choice would have been to take the option and trade him.

 

This was what several of us posters suggested last winter.

 

If you see what some clowns with worse injury histories and performance records got paid, then Buch was tradeable and should have been.

 

I deliberately omitted mention of sign and trade ( an idea I was on board with ) because that did not seem to be the Sox intent. Just a fans wish. Again. It was a bad decision when it happened, not just in hind sight.

[Spudboy]

Speaking of Wright, is anyone concerned about him pitching a lot of innings? He has pitched as much as 140+ only once.

 

Will fatigue hamper his effectiveness in the second half?

[cp176]

I deliberately omitted mention of sign and trade ( an idea I was on board with ) because that did not seem to be the Sox intent. Just a fans wish. Again. It was a bad decision when it happened, not just in hind sight.

 

Do you have a porch down there in Attleboro that I could just come over and shoot the s*** with you on? Need some help to keep my Red Sox focus up.

[a700hitter]

Do you have a porch down there in Attleboro that I could just come over and shoot the s*** with you on? Need some help to keep my Red Sox focus up.

That would be an interesting summit. If it happens, it should be videod and posted on YouTube.

[Emp9]

Exactly the reason why we should have taken the extension and traded him for the best possible return, even if just for a very promising single- A pitcher.

 

Let someone else take the "gamble".

 

Amazingly enough, MLBTR reported just last week Buch has still been "getting attention from rival scouts". I've said this before to the dismay of others, but some teams think they can "fix him" or at least find him intriguing enough to try. Don't kill the messenger. Obviously, i doubt we get much in return given how he's pitched, but that was never my point.

[mvp 78]

Do you have a porch down there in Attleboro that I could just come over and shoot the s*** with you on? Need some help to keep my Red Sox focus up.

 

No porch, just a really s***** Friendly's.

[Emp9]

Doesn't do Sox any good as a SP on the DL all the time. He is to up and down as a starter. Let him go out for one inning and throw high 90s.

 

Yup.

[Spudboy]

Do you have a porch down there in Attleboro that I could just come over and shoot the s*** with you on? Need some help to keep my Red Sox focus up.

 

Not a porch but I have an outside sitting area that is shaded. Plus, you are welcome to visit at any time. Just give me some notice.

[Spudboy]

That would be an interesting summit. If it happens, it should be videod and posted on YouTube.

 

It would be pretty f***ing cool to have a700, cp176, and MVP78 over for a game and discussion.

[moonslav59]

I deliberately omitted mention of sign and trade ( an idea I was on board with ) because that did not seem to be the Sox intent. Just a fans wish. Again. It was a bad decision when it happened, not just in hind sight.

 

Fair enough. I wasn't on this site back then, but the same discussion took place where I was, and only 1 or two posters, including myself thought taking the option and trading him was the best idea.

 

BTW, my second choice was take the option and pray.

[Spudboy]

Amazingly enough, MLBTR reported just last week Buch has still been "getting attention from rival scouts". I've said this before to the dismay of others, but some teams think they can "fix him" or at least find him intriguing enough to try. Don't kill the messenger. Obviously, i doubt we get much in return given how he's pitched, but that was never my point.

 

I have always maintained that Buck still has value to other teams. That is why I have advocating trading him for about two years.

[Spudboy]

No porch, just a really s***** Friendly's.

 

?????? I don't get it. I imagine that it is some funny s*** but I just don't get it.

[moonslav59]

Amazingly enough, MLBTR reported just last week Buch has still been "getting attention from rival scouts". I've said this before to the dismay of others, but some teams think they can "fix him" or at least find him intriguing enough to try. Don't kill the messenger. Obviously, i doubt we get much in return given how he's pitched, but that was never my point.

 

The state of good pitching at the bottom of many teams' rotations is so poor that yes, even Buch may look appealing to some GM. Maybe they see something on film that says they can "fix him", maybe they just think a change of scenery may give him the jolt he needs or maybe they just think even as is, he's got a better chance of doing well than who they have now. Remember, when Buch is on, he's posted some of MLB's best stretches in over 45 years. Henry Owens can't say that. O'Sullivan either. Kelly, Johnson...

[cp176]

It would be pretty f***ing cool to have a700, cp176, and MVP78 over for a game and discussion.

 

You think MVP could deal with all us old opinionated SOB's at once? Bet he could - I'm in. I get down your way quite often. Don't be surprised if I take you up on this. A Sox Summit!

[Spudboy]

You think MVP could deal with all us old opinionated SOB's at once? Bet he could - I'm in. I get down your way quite often. Don't be surprised if I take you up on this. A Sox Summit!

 

Cool.

 

Of course I am now obsessing about what I would cook for us.

 

Rib Eye, Green beans a la Pierre, and Zitti Salad. Followed by Strawberry Shortcake.

[a700hitter]

Cool.

 

Of course I am now obsessing about what I would cook for us.

 

Rib Eye, Green beans a la Pierre, and Zitti Salad. Followed by Strawberry Shortcake.

i'm in! We I'll need a documentarian.

[bowman]

Speaking of pitching, trading off our best prospects for any stud pitcher is risky. Remember, Kershaw and now Greinke on 15 day DL. Thats why developing home grown talent like Lester is critical. Pretty sad we can't come up with end of the rotation pitching. Remember when Gorman traded Bagwell for Anderson to help the playoff run. That team had no shot at a W.Series Then he states years later that he'd do it again. You have to trust your gut, if your one big move away, do it, but just be sure you really think it will give you that shot.