Sox Pitching Staff Discussion

[mvp 78]

What team would want to trade for Swihart while he's injured?

[Emp9]

What team would want to trade for Swihart while he's injured?

 

It's a sprain, not an amputation

[Kimmi]

Well now I have seen them!!!!!

 

Funny how I knew it was more serious than the press let on ( which is what the Sox FO fed them ).

 

Only Jacko and myself saw this coming and made the call.

 

"as he had no damage to the ligaments or cartilage in his knee". This is laughable.

 

You and Jacko called it right. In recent years, I have been very wary of any medical reports that I read. The injuries tend to have a way of going from being a few days to being months long.

 

At any rate, I am hopeful that ERod will get back to the pitcher that he was last season, and more. Tipping pitches seems to be an issue with him, but one that should be fixable.

[Slasher9]

You and Jacko called it right. In recent years, I have been very wary of any medical reports that I read. The injuries tend to have a way of going from being a few days to being months long.

 

At any rate, I am hopeful that ERod will get back to the pitcher that he was last season, and more. Tipping pitches seems to be an issue with him, but one that should be fixable.

Hey Kimmi. have we confirmed his latest struggles are from tipping pitches? or is this just a guess based on last year?

[Kimmi]

Why no confidence in Ross by JF? He had Ross warming up prior to 7th inning. I get it that Tazawa, Koji and Kimbrel usually pitch 7, 8 and 9 and it worked out just fine yesterday.

 

I don't think it's a lack of confidence in Ross, but rather a 'plan' that Farrell doesn't want to deviate from. When they are available, Tazawa, Koji, and Kimbrel are getting the 7th, 8th, and 9th in a save situation.

[Kimmi]

Everybody here wanted Holt to start in left over Castillo. Well, almost everybody I guess.

 

I did not. Not that I have anything against Holt. IMO, Holt's value to the team is in the super utility role. Taking him out of that role, along with taking Shaw out of a bench role, really hurt the team's bench depth, which should have been a team strength.

[jacksonianmarch]

You and Jacko called it right. In recent years, I have been very wary of any medical reports that I read. The injuries tend to have a way of going from being a few days to being months long.

 

At any rate, I am hopeful that ERod will get back to the pitcher that he was last season, and more. Tipping pitches seems to be an issue with him, but one that should be fixable.

 

Tipping pitches doesn't cause your velocity to drop and the bite on your breaking pitches to vanish. The guy in the Rodriguez jersey this year is not the same one that pitched last yr. They need to figure something out with him, because he does not yet have the baseball acumen to pitch with diminished stuff, nor is he at an age where his stuff should be diminished. It is either a physical issue that they are hoping he can work through or a psychological one. Dislocating your patella is not a weight bearing, structural issue. But if you've ever seen your own patella yanked to the side of your knee, I am sure it is a bit unnerving. I've reduced many and I am sure there is some hesitation to trust the knee on his part

[mvp 78]

It's a sprain, not an amputation

 

Sure, but wouldn't it give teams a little pause to make a deal?

[mvp 78]

I don't think it's a lack of confidence in Ross, but rather a 'plan' that Farrell doesn't want to deviate from. When they are available, Tazawa, Koji, and Kimbrel are getting the 7th, 8th, and 9th in a save situation.

 

That's how you overwork a bullpen.

[Emp9]

Sure, but wouldn't it give teams a little pause to make a deal?

 

I think you're partly right. Teams looking for an instant offensive upgrade at catcher right now... Swihart's injury takes him off the table. For example, there was a Mets looking to trade for Lucroy rumor. I couldn't help thinking if Swihart wasn't injured right now maybe things could've gotten interesting. Fat chance, I know, but it crossed my mind. I think there are teams out there that would look past his temporary injury and strongly consider the long term benefits of trading for Swihart. Teams look for long term solutions not just immediate solutions for a post season run, is all I'm trying to point out.

[mvp 78]

I think you're partly right. Teams looking for an instant offensive upgrade at catcher right now... Swihart's injury takes him off the table. For example, there was a Mets looking to trade for Lucroy rumor. I couldn't help thinking if Swihart wasn't injured right now maybe things could've gotten interesting. Fat chance, I know, but it crossed my mind. I think there are teams out there that would look past his temporary injury and strongly consider the long term benefits of trading for Swihart. Teams look for long term solutions not just immediate solutions for a post season run, is all I'm trying to point out.

 

I wasn't trying to say that Swihart had no value, just that it was diminished while he was injured. If the Sox want to deal him, they could get a better deal if they hold onto him until he's healthy and playing well in AAA.

[moonslav59]

What team would want to trade for Swihart while he's injured?

 

I can name 29.

[FredLynn]

Tipping pitches doesn't cause your velocity to drop and the bite on your breaking pitches to vanish. The guy in the Rodriguez jersey this year is not the same one that pitched last yr. They need to figure something out with him, because he does not yet have the baseball acumen to pitch with diminished stuff, nor is he at an age where his stuff should be diminished. It is either a physical issue that they are hoping he can work through or a psychological one. Dislocating your patella is not a weight bearing, structural issue. But if you've ever seen your own patella yanked to the side of your knee, I am sure it is a bit unnerving. I've reduced many and I am sure there is some hesitation to trust the knee on his part

 

His velocity reached 95 during his last outing. Its not velocity. Its location. And that could be fixed with some changes in his delivery. Remy pointed out four things that are different this year than last year in his delivery, and they have been working with him to get him back to how he threw the ball last year. Furthermore, ERod is not equivocating when asked about how his knee feels: he says its not an issue. I am sure that if its not a physical issue (and I don't think it is), it could well be a mental issue. That will take time to get over. Its too early to judge him. We gave Buchholz 10 starts; ERod deserves the same.

[FredLynn]

I can name 29.

 

Swihart needs to be a catcher again when he returns. It is looking more and more like Vasquez is going to remain insipid with a bat in his hands. I am not convinced that Vas is the answer at that position.

[mvp 78]

I can name 29.

 

I'm not sure you can count the Independent League...

[moonslav59]

Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post

Yes, my contention was we might have gotten a very nice SP'er for Swihart, Devers + the package we gave for Kimbrel.

 

I'm really done arguing about Kimbrel and his contract. It's great to have a top 3 closer, and he will help us this year.

It's certainly a valid point that we might have been able to get a decent starter for that package. What we have to consider is that they may have made a serious effort to trade for a starter but found that the only way they could land what they wanted, a cost-controlled TOTR starter, was to give up Betts or Bogey.

 

I totally get that.

 

Nobody other than maybe Sox management knows what we could have gotten for my suggested offer. Maybe Sox management never offered anyone that package, so we'll never know. If they did offer a similar package, in theory, I'd like to have known who we migth have gotten, so I could compare the benefits of having that guy and signing a FA closer or having Kimbrel as our closer (with his contract) and Buch/Kelly as our 4/5 starters (with their salaries).

 

I didn't really want to get back into the Kimbrel debate, because I already made my point more often than was needed, but one major aspect was the money. Had we traded for a low cost young SP'er with my suggested offer and not had Kimbrel's plus maybe traded Buch due to having another quality SP'er. We may have been able to trade for or sign 2-3 RP'ers with those savings. If we kept Buch, we'd still have had over $10M to spend on RP'ers and still been at the same budget amount. So, it was more than just Kimbrel vs Salazar or Carrasco types: it was Kimbrel & Buch vs Salazar, Clippard & KRod or Benoit (or Madson/O'Day types). (minus Swihart & Devers, of course).

[Slasher9]

Swihart needs to be a catcher again when he returns. It is looking more and more like Vasquez is going to remain insipid with a bat in his hands. I am not convinced that Vas is the answer at that position.

 

Vaz has hit some atom balls the past couple of days. he is putting the extra work in (according the JR) with chili. i'm willing to give him some more time before ruling out an acceptable 230-250 BA from him.....

[Bellhorn04]

That's how you overwork a bullpen.

 

Perhaps, but it's pretty much the same formula the Royals have been using with great success.

[Bellhorn04]

His velocity reached 95 during his last outing. Its not velocity. Its location. And that could be fixed with some changes in his delivery. Remy pointed out four things that are different this year than last year in his delivery, and they have been working with him to get him back to how he threw the ball last year. Furthermore, ERod is not equivocating when asked about how his knee feels: he says its not an issue. I am sure that if its not a physical issue (and I don't think it is), it could well be a mental issue. That will take time to get over. Its too early to judge him. We gave Buchholz 10 starts; ERod deserves the same.

 

Nice post Fred.

[sk7326]

I think right now - the Sox with their rotation are in an interesting place. Farrell has two luxuries - mainly that Price and Wright have been good bets to go deep into games. Additionally Porcello largely has as well.

 

Until Dombrowski solves the rest of it, I do think Farrell needs to be particularly vigilant with the other two starters. 18 batters tops for the starters - doesn't matter score. Turn the lineup over twice and then hand it off to Hembree or Barnes. I would be tempted to think of a quasi-tandem approach there. Use the cover which Price and Wright offer to be flexible with those last two guys. Right now, E-Rod's feel is not there, and while he needs big league reps to learn his thing, the Sox need to treat him like a 4-6 inning pitcher and let him figure it out.

[S5Dewey]

I think right now - the Sox with their rotation are in an interesting place. Farrell has two luxuries - mainly that Price and Wright have been good bets to go deep into games. Additionally Porcello largely has as well.

 

Until Dombrowski solves the rest of it, I do think Farrell needs to be particularly vigilant with the other two starters. 18 batters tops for the starters - doesn't matter score. Turn the lineup over twice and then hand it off to Hembree or Barnes. I would be tempted to think of a quasi-tandem approach there. Use the cover which Price and Wright offer to be flexible with those last two guys. Right now, E-Rod's feel is not there, and while he needs big league reps to learn his thing, the Sox need to treat him like a 4-6 inning pitcher and let him figure it out.

Not at all a bad idea. Just as some pitchers have dedicated catchers, let the bottom two of our rotation have dedicated relievers. Get 'em out of there before the damage starts. And since the relievers are only pitching two days out of five they shouldn't be overworked.

 

Of course that assumes that our top three are going to go seven or eight innings every start!

[moonslav59]

IP/GS

 

6.9 Wright

6.6 Price

6.3 Porcello

 

5.8 League Avg

 

5.7 Buch

5.2 ERod

3.7 Kelly

[Bellhorn04]

IP/GS

 

6.9 Wright

6.6 Price

6.3 Porcello

 

5.8 League Avg

 

5.7 Buch

5.2 ERod

3.7 Kelly

 

At 3.7 innings a pop, maybe Kelly should be a long reliever.

[Kimmi]

Hey Kimmi. have we confirmed his latest struggles are from tipping pitches? or is this just a guess based on last year?

 

He is tipping pitches, but his struggles go beyond that.

 

Here is what Merloni had to say about it:

 

As Merloni noted, when Rodriguez starts to lift his hands, if the hitter can see the thumb of his glove, Rodriguez is throwing a fastball or something hard. If the glove remains flat, it's a changeup. After he pointed it during Thursday's game, even my untrained eye could call about three-quarters of Rodriguez's pitches.

[Kimmi]

Tipping pitches doesn't cause your velocity to drop and the bite on your breaking pitches to vanish. The guy in the Rodriguez jersey this year is not the same one that pitched last yr. They need to figure something out with him, because he does not yet have the baseball acumen to pitch with diminished stuff, nor is he at an age where his stuff should be diminished. It is either a physical issue that they are hoping he can work through or a psychological one. Dislocating your patella is not a weight bearing, structural issue. But if you've ever seen your own patella yanked to the side of your knee, I am sure it is a bit unnerving. I've reduced many and I am sure there is some hesitation to trust the knee on his part

 

I think it's psychological. He and the team insist that it isn't physical. I believe that he has altered his mechanics due to fear of putting full pressure on that knee. He's been unnerved, as you said.

 

On top of that, he is tipping pitches again.

[FredLynn]

Vaz has hit some atom balls the past couple of days. he is putting the extra work in (according the JR) with chili. i'm willing to give him some more time before ruling out an acceptable 230-250 BA from him.....

 

He is going to get more time. There is no one else better than him right now. What I am saying is that when (if) Swihart returns this year, he should be a catcher, not a LF. Just in case. Atom bombs or not, unless Vasquez produces with the bat he will eventually be sitting a lot more often.

[FredLynn]

I think it's psychological. He and the team insist that it isn't physical. I believe that he has altered his mechanics due to fear of putting full pressure on that knee. He's been unnerved, as you said.

 

On top of that, he is tipping pitches again.

 

If I am Rodriguez and I am aware I am tipping my pitches, why not kind of "reverse tip"? In other words, sometimes let the hitter see the thumb of his glove but instead of throwing a fastball, throw an offspeed pitch-especially when you really need a K. Eventually he will need to be less revealing. I don't think its much of a problem though. Remy said as much during his last start. Now that Remy is with O'Brien he is focusing on sharing his great knowledge of the game.

[Bellhorn04]

This Gonzalez dude pitching for Chicago tonight is a guy we let go of and then passed on. I realize he isn't all that good or young, but he's plenty cheap and he does at least resemble a major league pitcher.

[Bellhorn04]

He is going to get more time. There is no one else better than him right now. What I am saying is that when (if) Swihart returns this year, he should be a catcher, not a LF. Just in case. Atom bombs or not, unless Vasquez produces with the bat he will eventually be sitting a lot more often.

 

He's looking a little better at the plate.

[Jasonbay44]

This Gonzalez dude pitching for Chicago tonight is a guy we let go of and then passed on. I realize he isn't all that good or young, but he's plenty cheap and he does at least resemble a major league pitcher.

 

He had a quality start tonight. if any of the guy besides our top 3 could throw a quality start, I'd be THRILLED. Buchholz, Kelly, O'Sullivan, Elias, E-Rod and Owens have combined to make 26 starts, in those 26 starts we've received 6 quality starts (3 from Buchholz in 10 starts, 1 from Kelly in 6, 1 from E-Rod in 4, 1 from Owens in 3, 0 from O'Sullivan in 2 and 0 from Elias in 1).

 

Gonzalez isn't a flashy guy or a big name, but he's a hell of a lot better than half our rotation.