The David Ortiz Appreciation Thread

[devildavid]

Hell yeah it should. Aside from that hitting is a DH's single job - that there are different offensive norms for different positions is common knowledge. I agree there is positional discrimination by the Hall ... but DHs should be expected to deliver more than someone who can field, because there is only one place where he makes an impact. I am not treating it as a novelty - I am treating it like a specialist who should do a specialists job at a special quality.

 

They should be evaluated as any other great hitter is evaluated. How does being a DH give them any great advantages over any other hitter? The Hall of Fame has to adapt and keep pace with the changes in the game.

[sk7326]

They should be evaluated as any other great hitter is evaluated. How does being a DH give them any great advantages over any other hitter? The Hall of Fame has to adapt and keep pace with the changes in the game.

 

You would certainly evaluate a catcher's numbers differently than a 1B ... this is not that complicated. The "average" for the position is higher - so the 95th percentile goes up with it.

[sk7326]

Ortiz played in better lineups? Edgar at one point was in the same lineup with Griffey, ARod and Buhner among others. That was some lineup.

 

In 1995 and 1996. He played most of his peak in an offensive graveyard

[a700hitter]

In 1995 and 1996. He played most of his peak in an offensive graveyard

Prior to 1996, they also had Tino Martinez. Prior to AROd in 95, they had Griffey, Buhner and Tino. That is not a wasteland, and Edgar's best seasons by far were from '95 to 2000.

[S5Dewey]

Bar has to be high as a pure DH. Ortiz is not the best qualified pure DH will a Hall case (Edgar Martinez is at least as good). I'd argue for them both, but I can't argue for Ortiz first.

 

A solid argument can be made for either Edgar Martinez or Papi. If the voters are going to let a DH into the hall someone has to be the first one in and since Martinez isn't in yet it looks like he's not going to be - unless someone else with somewhat equal numbers gets in first.

 

Papi's performance in the post-season should give him the edge he needs to get in the door. Once that door gets opened - and it certainly should get opened - both of them should be in. Matrtinez should be Papi's biggest fan right now because if Papi gets in Martinez will get in on Papi's coattails.

Edited May 15, 2016 by S5Dewey
OP is old. Clarifying which Martinez I'm talking about

[sk7326]

Prior to 1996, they also had Tino Martinez. Prior to AROd in 95, they had Griffey, Buhner and Tino. That is not a wasteland, and Edgar's best seasons by far were from '95 to 2000.

 

You are right with some of this since I looked up some of the stuff ... they moved to Safeco middle of 1999, so he had a few good seasons within an offensive graveyard. He was the best hitter in a good lineup and actually compares quite favorably to the best hitter in the Red Sox lineup over most of Ortiz' peak ... Manny.

 

Martinez had a great 1995, but he also had a great 1990-1992, seasons, once normalized for league and such were right in the same neighborhood as Ortiz' best seasons.

 

Ortiz has given me more joy than any other Red Sox player (Pedro is the only one in the argument) ... and he gets particular credit for me for his 2010 and beyond career, when it looked like by the ALCS in 2008 and the entire 2009 season that the party was over.

[cp176]

What he has meant to the game of baseball, fans of the Sox, New England in general sets a bar so high possibly no one will get to it again. He is what he is - genuine. Oh, by the way, roughly half of hi hits have been extra base hits. First ballot - HOF

[Kimmi]

IMO, both Edgar and Papi deserve to be in the HOF without question. The idea that they don't deserve it because they don't play defense is ludicrous. If DH is a legitimate position, which it is, then the voters need to assess pure DH's on the merits of playing that position, which doesn't include defense. Personally, I don't see any way that Papi doesn't get in because he is not only a great hitter, he is an icon.

[SinceYaz]

Schilling in game 6 is the most overrated performance of all time imo.

 

I have a rather healthy sense of doubt that you are aware of all the other performances of all time.

[SinceYaz]

 

Ortiz has given me more joy than any other Red Sox player (Pedro is the only one in the argument) ... and he gets particular credit for me for his 2010 and beyond career, when it looked like by the ALCS in 2008 and the entire 2009 season that the party was over.

 

Tip o' the hat, one this!!!

[Dojji]

They should be evaluated as any other great hitter is evaluated. How does being a DH give them any great advantages over any other hitter? The Hall of Fame has to adapt and keep pace with the changes in the game.

 

How much greater a contribution would Ted Williams have had on his team if his mediocre-at-best defense could have been hidden in the DH spot? bWAR says that over the course of his career, if Williams had been a DH instead of a LF, the man would have been worth an additional 13 wins.

 

It's a factor.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Dojji

[sk7326]

IMO, both Edgar and Papi deserve to be in the HOF without question. The idea that they don't deserve it because they don't play defense is ludicrous. If DH is a legitimate position, which it is, then the voters need to assess pure DH's on the merits of playing that position, which doesn't include defense. Personally, I don't see any way that Papi doesn't get in because he is not only a great hitter, he is an icon.

 

Absolutely - it is ok though to have a higher bar for a DH offensively than a different position.

[moonslav59]

There are players in the HOF that were bad to horrible fielders, so I don't see why being a DH should stop anyone from being inducted.

[a700hitter]

You are right with some of this since I looked up some of the stuff ...

I was right with all of it.

[Emp9]

Do pitchers predominantly get inducted because of their offense? What about their defense? Is Mariano Rivera going to get inducted? He only had to pitch 1 inning. The save is a relatively new stat (1969). The DH was used the first time in 1969 as well, but not implemented fully by the AL until 1973.I don't hate on Mo, I'm just using him as a measuring stick. There's 5 closers in the HOF, mainly due to their relief efforts. The DH is part of baseball whether people like it or not and it helps the game. In Papi's case, it's not like he couldn't play a good 1B. The team he was on took advantage of the league rules and optimized their lineup. He shouldn't be punished for that.

[Bill-806]

The Sox and Papi are off to a great start....... Should be a fun year !! DAD & Bill-806 are thrilled to be on board !!! What say you ??

[Bill-806]

BINGO DAT !!! DAD & BILL-806 agree that he is having a fantastic early season start !!

[sk7326]

There are players in the HOF that were bad to horrible fielders, so I don't see why being a DH should stop anyone from being inducted.

 

No doubt. But I don't think it is wrong to have a higher offensive threshhold for a DH than for a middle fielder.

[sk7326]

Do pitchers predominantly get inducted because of their offense? What about their defense? Is Mariano Rivera going to get inducted? He only had to pitch 1 inning. The save is a relatively new stat (1969). The DH was used the first time in 1969 as well, but not implemented fully by the AL until 1973.I don't hate on Mo, I'm just using him as a measuring stick. There's 5 closers in the HOF, mainly due to their relief efforts. The DH is part of baseball whether people like it or not and it helps the game. In Papi's case, it's not like he couldn't play a good 1B. The team he was on took advantage of the league rules and optimized their lineup. He shouldn't be punished for that.

 

Well punished is not the right term. For instance, Mike Schmidt had a fairly similar offensive profile to Ortiz. But he created additional value playing a solid 3B that Ortiz could not. So that should matter. It is totally legit to let DH's in ... but it is also legit for the DH offensive threshhold to be high compared to a fielder, because there is no defensive contribution to weigh in. Ortiz and Edgar Martinez clearly pass that threshhold to me.

[Emp9]

Well punished is not the right term. For instance, Mike Schmidt had a fairly similar offensive profile to Ortiz. But he created additional value playing a solid 3B that Ortiz could not. So that should matter. It is totally legit to let DH's in ... but it is also legit for the DH offensive threshhold to be high compared to a fielder, because there is no defensive contribution to weigh in. Ortiz and Edgar Martinez clearly pass that threshhold to me.

 

Did not, not could not. Different league as well. What additional value do pitchers provide? ... Besides pitching?

[sk7326]

Did not, not could not. Different league as well. What additional value do pitchers provide? ... Besides pitching?

 

Not much - but given how much influence a starter has in his games, the gap can get closed pretty easily. The pitchers value pitching is sufficient - often to match the overall contribution of a good position player.

 

I agree mostly with the reliever thing - Sutter is not a good HoF inductee. The one-inning closer is a modern phenomenon, but one that has been around for 20 years and is here to stay. Rivera did it better than anybody - and by a wide margin. So he should get in. The others are much dicier.

[Emp9]

Not much - but given how much influence a starter has in his games, the gap can get closed pretty easily. The pitchers value pitching is sufficient - often to match the overall contribution of a good position player.

 

I agree mostly with the reliever thing - Sutter is not a good HoF inductee. The one-inning closer is a modern phenomenon, but one that has been around for 20 years and is here to stay. Rivera did it better than anybody - and by a wide margin. So he should get in. The others are much dicier.

 

Good points. I'll say up front I'm not a big fan of Pitchers batting. I also think the DH can bring in younger fans (which is a big concern to MLB). I'm confident that if Ortiz played 1B say on a NL team his whole career, he'd been fine. No issues. Does a Closer contribute more than a heart of the order bat day in day out? He's also gotten snubbed out of a few MVP awards as well due to being a DH and to me that seems like a punishment for circumstance that are out of his control. In Papi's case, for what he's done for baseball time & time again, he's a no-brainer HoFer.

The Papi appreciation thread is a good start, but I think we're all gonna need professional therapy for after he's gone.

[illinoisredsox]

Fully agree he would have been fine had he had to play 1B every day. He never embarrassed himself when he did play and made some pretty good plays at times (ask Jeff Suppan). He just happened to be on teams with good to great first sackers. Meinkiewicz when he was with the Twins, Youkilis, AGon and Napoli with the Sox. All but Napoli were GG caliber in the field, and Nap was pretty darn good. Only Kevin Millar would have been considered average during Papi's tenure..

[Slasher9]

Fully agree he would have been fine had he had to play 1B every day. He never embarrassed himself when he did play and made some pretty good plays at times (ask Jeff Suppan). He just happened to be on teams with good to great first sackers. Meinkiewicz when he was with the Twins, Youkilis, AGon and Napoli with the Sox. All but Napoli were GG caliber in the field, and Nap was pretty darn good. Only Kevin Millar would have been considered average during Papi's tenure..

 

this. 100%.

[Dojji]

If Ortiz played first every day his career would have been a few games, if not a few years, shorter. There were times that even with the DHing, Papi's knees or legs were playing havoc with him. Less so since he slimmed down in recent seasons, but I think it's fair to say that if he'd been playing 1B regularly, Papi would have had to sit quite a bit more often. Just the nature of being a big guy.

[sk7326]

Good points. I'll say up front I'm not a big fan of Pitchers batting. I also think the DH can bring in younger fans (which is a big concern to MLB). I'm confident that if Ortiz played 1B say on a NL team his whole career, he'd been fine. No issues. Does a Closer contribute more than a heart of the order bat day in day out? He's also gotten snubbed out of a few MVP awards as well due to being a DH and to me that seems like a punishment for circumstance that are out of his control. In Papi's case, for what he's done for baseball time & time again, he's a no-brainer HoFer.

The Papi appreciation thread is a good start, but I think we're all gonna need professional therapy for after he's gone.

 

Snubbed out of MVPs is a bit much. Other players who do offer major contributions in premium positions have a chance to add value in more areas (including the basic opportunity cost that comes with a good bat at a specific position). A DH has to do a lot to overcome that.

[Jack Flap]

BINGO DAT !!! DAD & BILL-806 agree that he is having a fantastic early season start !!

 

Sorry, but the real Bill-806 would still have found some way to criticize Papi's performance (like not having enough stolen bases or infield hits) or insinuated that he is about to get injured or is on 'roids. Nice try, though.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Jack Flap

[Emp9]

"punished is not the right term". I'm all ears, what terminology would be appropriate? To paraphrase, you're saying the stigma of the DH is well deserved. I'm saying if there's a stigma for the DH, a Closer should also be stigmatized. Basically, I'm hinting towards, If Rivera gets into the HOF, Papi has to as well. Both are niche roles that are part of the game as we know it. For better or worse. Just trying to clarify.

[sk7326]

"punished is not the right term". I'm all ears, what terminology would be appropriate? To paraphrase, you're saying the stigma of the DH is well deserved. I'm saying if there's a stigma for the DH, a Closer should also be stigmatized. Basically, I'm hinting towards, If Rivera gets into the HOF, Papi has to as well. Both are niche roles that are part of the game as we know it. For better or worse. Just trying to clarify.

 

I think that is a fair sentiment.

 

I also think that a DH's offense often has to be greater than a position player's offense because of defensive value and positional scarcity. That is basic team building - the way a big hitting CF (assuming he can play CF at a decent clip) is more valuable than a big hitting LF because they are just harder to find.

[Kimmi]

The Sox and Papi are off to a great start....... Should be a fun year !! DAD & Bill-806 are thrilled to be on board !!! What say you ??

 

Hi Bill, welcome!