Clay Buchholz - Is he worth the 2016 option?

[sk7326]

It's funny how no one wants back Buchholz (80 IP, 191 ERA+, 1.025 WHIP), but a lot of people are excited about Johnson (83 IP, 106 ERA+, 1.373 WHIP) for basically the same money...

 

I think what people got sick of was Buchholz lack of durability and very high variability. That he has been good for Arizona is not a surprise - he has always had elite stuff. And he has always had elite stretches.

[S5Dewey]

I think what people got sick of was Buchholz lack of durability and very high variability. That he has been good for Arizona is not a surprise - he has always had elite stuff. And he has always had elite stretches.

 

I've always said that Buch has ace stuff, could have been had for about half the cost of an ace, and he'd pitch half a season. I'd rather have had him for that half season and dumpster-dive (if necessary) for the other half.

[kenmeister]

I heart Clay. wish he was still a Red Sox.

always was and always will be a "no brainer" to keep him.

 

As I recall, it was between keeping Clay and keeping Rich Hill. I heart Rich Hill more, but they let him go. At this point we have neither pitcher. But looking to the 2019 season, I'm more interested in resigning Eovaldi than returning Clay to the fold. At least, so far.

[Slasher9]

. But looking to the 2019 season, I'm more interested in resigning Eovaldi than returning Clay to the fold. At least, so far.

 

sign them both. can never have too much pitching.

[mvp 78]

sign them both. can never have too much pitching.

 

I've already had too much Buchholz for one lifetime.

[notin]

I've already had too much Buchholz for one lifetime.

 

So your nightmare trade would be Devers for Buchholz...

[mvp 78]

So your nightmare trade would be Devers for Buchholz...

 

It would turn my Sox fandom into what my recent Patriots fandom has become.

[notin]

It would turn my Sox fandom into what my recent Patriots fandom has become.

 

Stay he course with the Pats. Sure, their run is going to end and it will probably be ugly, but true fans root for their team during those down times.

[Dojji]

It's funny how no one wants back Buchholz (80 IP, 191 ERA+, 1.025 WHIP), but a lot of people are excited about Johnson (83 IP, 106 ERA+, 1.373 WHIP) for basically the same money...

 

Yeah, funny how nobody is excited to bring in a broken down, badly inconsistent pitcher who wavers maddeningly between adequate, excellent and horrible and hasn't pitched a full season in 6 years...

 

And yet is excited by the young lefty coming into his own, producing at a steady pace and making a serious bid for a bottom of the rotation spot next year.

 

Why it's almost as if stability, consistency and durability were incredibly valuable assets in a starting pitcher as long as the production level is at least adequate.

[notin]

Yeah, funny how nobody is excited to bring in a broken down, badly inconsistent pitcher who wavers maddeningly between adequate, excellent and horrible and hasn't pitched a full season in 6 years...

 

And yet is excited by the young lefty coming into his own, producing at a steady pace and making a serious bid for a bottom of the rotation spot next year.

 

Why it's almost as if stability, consistency and durability were incredibly valuable assets in a starting pitcher as long as the production level is at least adequate.

 

 

 

I know. It's crazy how I thought of both of them as pitchers making MLB minimum wage.

 

And which of Brian Johnson's 10 career starts established his stability, consistency and durability? We have at best a small sample size here.

 

I think a lot of people are enamored by how he has pitched a a rookie, but he is not a young rookie. He's 10 months younger than Eovaldi, who will be a free agent after this season.

 

Johnson overcame a lot through his long minor league career, but to simply throw accolades at him while disregarding while slamming Buchholz doesn't say much beyond sour grapes. If Buchholz' career started in another uniform and came here on a minor league deal to pitch like he has, would people be so quick to disparage him? We certainly liked Rich Hill when he was here, and his career was more of a mess than Clay's before he came to Boston...

[Dojji]

I've always said that Buch has ace stuff, could have been had for about half the cost of an ace, and he'd pitch half a season. I'd rather have had him for that half season and dumpster-dive (if necessary) for the other half.

 

Half an ace is worse than no ace at all. Losing an ace type pitcher can torpedo a season. Why deliberately invite that?

 

When Buchholz was here my biggest beef with him is that he would always be nonexistent around the deadline, meaning that EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR, we had to burn minor league resources for emergency replacements to pitch the innings he should be pitching.

 

You've heard of the gift that keeps on giving. The man was the gift that keeps on taking. A literal white elephant that forced us to bleed talent in order to keep him. No more. All done with that. Even with better SP depth options, I'd rather just give those guys experience and keep the white elephant far from our trough, thank you.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Dojji

[Dojji]

I know. It's crazy how I thought of both of them as pitchers making MLB minimum wage.

 

I don't care if Buchholz paid us to pitch here. No more. As far as I'm concerned he's burned his bridges here. He has ace type stuff, but his body and his brain robbed him of the ability to ever do so consistently. You can call it silly, but if I've put my money on a square and rolled loser after loser, at a certain point, laws of probability be damned, I'm at least going to pick a different square.

 

And which of Brian Johnson's 10 career starts established his stability, consistency and durability? We have at best a small sample size here.

 

So you admit that 80 or so IP is a small sample size. That's a step in the right direction. With a bit of luck we might actually get you not to discard Buchholz' lifetime body of work in favor of his most recent 80 inning stretch. But only if you're prepared to actually use your mind. By all means, be my guest, I hear the procedure is painless and quite seriously underrated in today's society

 

I think a lot of people are enamored by how he has pitched a a rookie, but he is not a young rookie. He's 10 months younger than Eovaldi, who will be a free agent after this season.

 

I'm not madly in love with Eovaldi either. Personally I would not shed one salty tear if Eovaldi walked in the offseason. Neither he nor Buchholz are a guy you build your roster around. They're both supplemental pieces at best. At least Eovaldi doesn't have the stink of being a supplemental piece that we expected to evolve into a franchise cornerstone and didn't.

 

Johnson overcame a lot through his long minor league career, but to simply throw accolades at him while disregarding while slamming Buchholz doesn't say much beyond sour grapes. If Buchholz' career started in another uniform and came here on a minor league deal to pitch like he has, would people be so quick to disparage him? We certainly liked Rich Hill when he was here, and his career was more of a mess than Clay's before he came to Boston...

 

I wouldn't say "sour grapes," so much as "the burnt hand shuns the fire." Your mileage may vary, but I've had enough of the endless vein of disappointment that is Clay Buchholz. At least Johnson is exceeding his own expectations.

[Station 13]

Don't care about Buchwheat. Glad that nightmare is long gone.

[redsoxrules]

It's funny how no one wants back Buchholz (80 IP, 191 ERA+, 1.025 WHIP), but a lot of people are excited about Johnson (83 IP, 106 ERA+, 1.373 WHIP) for basically the same money...

 

Buch can't stay healthy. He's only had 3 seasons where he's started more than 20 games and one of them was just 21.

Don't get too excited on those stats. They won't last that long.

[Slasher9]

Buch can't stay healthy. He's only had 3 seasons where he's started more than 20 games and one of them was just 21.

Don't get too excited on those stats. They won't last that long.

 

whats not to get excited about? he is making league minimum. its not like we would be signing him to be our ACE or #2 or #3, etc. he doesnt make $31MM x 7 but everyone always acted like he did....

[mvp 78]

Stay he course with the Pats. Sure, their run is going to end and it will probably be ugly, but true fans root for their team during those down times.

 

I was a huge fan of them in the 80's and 90's.

 

What I struggle with is the concussion issue, Kraft's idiocy/ties to Trump and the overall s***** attitude of the Pats fans in general.

[mvp 78]

whats not to get excited about? he is making league minimum. its not like we would be signing him to be our ACE or #2 or #3, etc. he doesnt make $31MM x 7 but everyone always acted like he did....

 

He made $13M too much.

[sk7326]

I've always said that Buch has ace stuff, could have been had for about half the cost of an ace, and he'd pitch half a season. I'd rather have had him for that half season and dumpster-dive (if necessary) for the other half.

 

The problem with that is it means you are planning for an extra pitcher - and for a team with the Red Sox aspirations, that is a pitcher who can give some major league innings. Buchholz' inability to pitch regularly (which has continued in Arizona) is the real problem.

[S5Dewey]

The problem with that is it means you are planning for an extra pitcher - and for a team with the Red Sox aspirations, that is a pitcher who can give some major league innings. Buchholz' inability to pitch regularly (which has continued in Arizona) is the real problem.

 

I agree with that. His inability to pitch regularly is also what keeps him from making $20MM/year - which I would think would be a big problem for HIM too!

 

But.. I'd rather have a guy whom I think will go out and get me a WHIP of 1.2 - 1.3 over a half season for the league minimum than try to sign someone else without Buch's ability to be a #4 or 5 for the same money.If/When Buch goes down, THEN go out and get your #4-5 guy.

[Dojji]

You're not looking at the big picture. The big picture is, where do you find the rest of his innings, and how does finding that guy affect the cost-benefit analysis?

 

The better that other guy is, the less you needed Buchholz in the first place.

 

And the worse that other guy is, the more Buchholz' disappearance hamstrings the team in midseason, exactly when it's the most expensive to try and impose fixes.

 

The fact is that his lack of durability means that even bringing Buchholz in carries multiple additional moving parts over other starting pitchers, and in engineering terms, "moving parts" is a synonym for "things that can go wrong."

 

You have enough disasters and setbacks over the course of a normal baseball campaign without deliberately inviting them. No to Buchholz. No, no, no, and yet again, no.

[Dojji]

Long and short of it -- Buchholz is actually in an odd position where the better equipped a team is to deal with his peculiarities, the less likely that team is to actually need him.

[notin]

The problem with that is it means you are planning for an extra pitcher - and for a team with the Red Sox aspirations, that is a pitcher who can give some major league innings. Buchholz' inability to pitch regularly (which has continued in Arizona) is the real problem.

 

But getting him on a minor league deal could certainly solve a lot of that.

 

The Sox do have good pitching depth, but don’t you think Clay could have given the Sox more than Jalen Beeks did?

[Kimmi]

I heart Clay. wish he was still a Red Sox.

always was and always will be a "no brainer" to keep him.

 

^^This.

[Kimmi]

So your nightmare trade would be Devers for Buchholz...

 

LOL Good call.

[Bellhorn04]

August was not a bad month for Clay:

 

5 games

36 IP (7.2 per start)

1.25 ERA

.97 WHIP

4.67 K/BB

[Kimmi]

August was not a bad month for Clay:

 

5 games

36 IP (7.2 per start)

1.25 ERA

.97 WHIP

4.67 K/BB

 

Such an enigma.

[Slasher9]

BTW - now might be a good time to let everyone know.

the stats on my OP are NOT Clay Buchholz stats. they are Mr. David Price's stats.

 

....BYE FELECIA!....

eck sends his love