Referendum on John Farrell

[mvp 78]

Pitching and defense wins championships. Sox aren't quite there yet.

 

IDK, their defense is pretty good. OF is solid. C is solid. Pedey is almost GG caliber still. Xander is ok. Hanley was pretty good at 1b and can only get better.

[Dojji]

I'll correct you on Hanley -- he was a nondisaster at 1B and that's all we ask. He's no Kevin Youkilis, but he's no Dick "Dr. Strangeglove" Stuart either. Agreed that it's well within his ability to improve and I think we saw him do it over the course of the season.

 

I was very pleasantly surprised that the number of lapses in concentration and bonehead plays at first base was very low, especially considering his performance in the outfield last year. 1B may be Hanley's home for the final years of his career. He's definitely got the stick for it.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Dojji

[S5Dewey]

IDK, their defense is pretty good. OF is solid. C is solid. Pedey is almost GG caliber still. Xander is ok. Hanley was pretty good at 1b and can only get better.

 

Yes. Which is why I don't want to weaken that defense by trading any of those players away.

[mvp 78]

If Lovullo takes the DBags job, does that give Farrell greater security?

[Spudboy]

If Lovullo takes the DBags job, does that give Farrell greater security?

 

No. If he f***s up enough to get his ass fired they will go get another body.

[Dojji]

I doubt Lovullo was ever a serious threat to Farrell's job, except in the eyes of the rabid haters and the Boston media (but I repeat myself)

[mvp 78]

I doubt Lovullo was ever a serious threat to Farrell's job, except in the eyes of the rabid haters and the Boston media (but I repeat myself)

 

If that's the case, why give him a manager sized contract?

[sk7326]

If that's the case, why give him a manager sized contract?

 

I do think they liked him a lot - and one could easily argue they wanted him to stay for another year to assure Farrell health. It is good to have a qualified in house guy - but this was always the likely move. I also was never sure if Lovullo wanted to be seen as stabbing one of his best friends in the back.

[sk7326]

Pitching and defense wins championships. Sox aren't quite there yet.

 

All of it wins championships - the Sox just ran into a team who were a little better three times. Cubs got shut out last night - but hung 8 runs up the night before and averaged some healthy numbers. The Red Sox were good - but it's baseball and being a good team is not at all sufficient.

[Dojji]

No, there's no roster you can make that will guarantee a championship. Ask the Yankees. They sure as hell tried.

[oldtimer]

No, there's no roster you can make that will guarantee a championship. Ask the Yankees. They sure as hell tried.

 

But there are plenty of rosters out there that will guarantee you don't win a championship. I don't want the Sox to have one of those.

[Slasher9]

percentages. you want them in your favor.

[Dojji]

Sure, but until you prove that Farrell had no interest in HFA, your rant is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that Farrell only actually tanked one game, right after we clinched the division, and that's pretty arguable since there's some rumor that we started Owens because the scheduled starter was dinged up.

 

We didn't hand HFA away, we LOST it, there's a difference. The Guardians beat us to home field fair and square. They are a good baseball team and they got hot when we got cold, and took HFA in the last week of the season end of story.

[Slasher9]

Sure, but until you prove that Farrell had no interest in HFA, your rant is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that Farrell only actually tanked one game, right after we clinched the division, and that's pretty arguable since there's some rumor that we started Owens because the scheduled starter was dinged up.

 

We didn't hand HFA away, we LOST it, there's a difference. The Guardians beat us to home field fair and square. They are a good baseball team and they got hot when we got cold, and took HFA in the last week of the season end of story.

 

sorry. im not blaming Farrel at all. and i agree 100% that the Guardians won it. give credit where credit is due. shoot...we couldnt even force them to have to play their 162 game on that monday. gave them an extra day off. wonder what might have changed if we forced them to actually have to play that game?

anywho, i blame David Ortiz Farewell Tour for us stumbling the final week.

[oldtimer]

sorry. im not blaming Farrel at all. and i agree 100% that the Guardians won it. give credit where credit is due. shoot...we couldnt even force them to have to play their 162 game on that monday. gave them an extra day off. wonder what might have changed if we forced them to actually have to play that game?

anywho, i blame David Ortiz Farewell Tour for us stumbling the final week.

 

To suggest that Farrell had no responsibility for losing the last 9 games we played means the manager doesn't matter in the scheme of things. The manager sets the tone and makes decisions that impact the games played. He was at least in part responsible for the outcome. Yes, Cleveland is a good team this year but we were swept by the Yankees and Blue Jays just before Cleveland. We weren't playing good ball at the end. I wouldn't mind going in a different direction although that has its risks as well.

[Dojji]

To suggest that Farrell had no responsibility for losing the last 9 games we played means the manager doesn't matter in the scheme of things. The manager sets the tone and makes decisions that impact the games played. He was at least in part responsible for the outcome

 

What exactly should Farrell have done to turn those 9 games into wins? Specifics please. Otherwise you're just blowing hot air. Acting as if Farrell had a magic wand of make-the-team-play-better and we lost HFA because he adamantly, steadfastly, and for no good reason, absolutely refused to wave it, gets us nowhere.

[Maxbialystock]

I'm the presumptive great defender of John Farrell and have no problem with Oldtimer's insistence that Farrell is partly responsible for losing 8 of the final 9 games, including all three ALDS games against Cleveland.

 

However, in the same breath we also have to blame Farrell for the best September in MLB this year and the best the Sox have had in a long time and how that month got the Sox to 93 wins and the ALE title in what was the toughest of the six MLB divisions. I would also point out that 7 of those 9 games were close--2 run margin or less--and that 4 of the 5 final losses were by 1 run, so it wasn't as though the Sox rolled over the way they did in 2011.

 

I myself have complained about Farrell on this thread. But, oldtimer is being completely onesided if not blind if he doesn't recognize that Farrell had to have done some good things as manager this year, which is why he will be back next year.

[oldtimer]

What exactly should Farrell have done to turn those 9 games into wins? Specifics please. Otherwise you're just blowing hot air. Acting as if Farrell had a magic wand of make-the-team-play-better and we lost HFA because he adamantly, steadfastly, and for no good reason, absolutely refused to wave it, gets us nowhere.

 

JF was running the team and we lost 9 straight and for a variety of reasons. Proving that he didn't provide the enthusiasm or emphasis on winning and getting home field advantage is difficult but the result is and was clear. The team had gone on a winning streak prior to that and he gets partial credit for that as he gets partial credit for the near collapse. My understanding of your position is that the manager should not be accountable for team issues and failures. If that is true, what role is he playing?

[SoxHop]

JF was running the team and we lost 9 straight and for a variety of reasons. Proving that he didn't provide the enthusiasm or emphasis on winning and getting home field advantage is difficult but the result is and was clear. The team had gone on a winning streak prior to that and he gets partial credit for that as he gets partial credit for the near collapse. My understanding of your position is that the manager should not be accountable for team issues and failures. If that is true, what role is he playing?

 

I'm with you on this. If there is one thing a manager needs to do it is to get the team prepared and mentally prepared for a tough stretch.

 

We seemed to clench, or be almost inevitably clenching, and the wheels came off. We had our gun in our holster before the first shot.

 

The manager has some sway in peaking too early or peaking at the right time and getting his players up for a big game.

 

He has some blame to this, but it isn't extensive and I'll take him back again next year unless we can get someone better.

 

He gets a D- from me as far as getting his team ready for the playoffs. They looked and played tight....

[Dojji]

. My understanding of your position is that the manager should not be accountable for team issues and failures. If that is true, what role is he playing?

 

And we're back to the magic wand again.

 

Oh he should be accountable, as long as you also hold him accountable for some of the tremendous peaks this team had over the course of the season. Maxbialystok put that better than I could possibly reiterate it.

 

My position has always been that the shorter the stretch of games discussed, the less control over the situation the manager has. And Farrell, as an average manager (I've been saying this all season, I'll say it all year, he's not good, not bad, but average) isn't going to be able to wave the wand nearly as effectively as some others.

 

I still think this team would have had better showings each of the last 5 years if Tito Francona had been left right where he was following the 2011 season. That man was an excellent manager. Adequate tactician, master motivator. THe team got away for him for one month in his entire career when injuries and his own health issues overwhelmed him. Team overreacted and immediately fired the best manager they've had in the modern era and haven't found a replacement yet that was worthy of carrying his jockstrap.

[S5Dewey]

And we're back to the magic wand again.

 

Oh he should be accountable, as long as you also hold him accountable for some of the tremendous peaks this team had over the course of the season. Maxbialystok put that better than I could possibly reiterate it.

 

My position has always been that the shorter the stretch of games discussed, the less control over the situation the manager has. And Farrell, as an average manager (I've been saying this all season, I'll say it all year, he's not good, not bad, but average) isn't going to be able to wave the wand nearly as effectively as some others.

 

I still think this team would have had better showings each of the last 5 years if Tito Francona had been left right where he was following the 2011 season. That man was an excellent manager. Adequate tactician, master motivator. THe team got away for him for one month in his entire career when injuries and his own health issues overwhelmed him. Team overreacted and immediately fired the best manager they've had in the modern era and haven't found a replacement yet that was worthy of carrying his jockstrap.

 

There's an old adage that when things go South you can't fire the players so you fire the manager. In this case they fired the manager AND the players (by trades), and that's how we got to where we were before this season.

 

Make no mistake, the Red Sox are still in a rebuilding mode, they're just nearer the top than most teams would be after two consecutive last-place finishes.

[sk7326]

And we're back to the magic wand again.

 

Oh he should be accountable, as long as you also hold him accountable for some of the tremendous peaks this team had over the course of the season. Maxbialystok put that better than I could possibly reiterate it.

 

My position has always been that the shorter the stretch of games discussed, the less control over the situation the manager has. And Farrell, as an average manager (I've been saying this all season, I'll say it all year, he's not good, not bad, but average) isn't going to be able to wave the wand nearly as effectively as some others.

 

I still think this team would have had better showings each of the last 5 years if Tito Francona had been left right where he was following the 2011 season. That man was an excellent manager. Adequate tactician, master motivator. THe team got away for him for one month in his entire career when injuries and his own health issues overwhelmed him. Team overreacted and immediately fired the best manager they've had in the modern era and haven't found a replacement yet that was worthy of carrying his jockstrap.

 

Despite my admiration for Francona - and some level of agreement with you - I do think the relationship might have run its course too. 8 years is a long time in a place like Boston. Replacing him with one of his former coaches is sound - Farrell has been fine (better with the soft skills than the tactics, but again this year the tactics were largely good - you look at the games and it is hard to find issues with his bullpen moves, for a lot of the year the players did not deliver). I had more issues the last year or two when it looked like the coaches were not adding value.

 

Francona has had a wonderful postseason playing to his team's strengths with the pitching staff. But we know Farrell has also managed very aggressively in big games and had quick hooks and the like. I suspect if the Sox got gifted a weapon like Andrew Miller to go with Kimbrel Miller would have not been banished to the 8th inning.

[Bellhorn04]

JF was running the team and we lost 9 straight and for a variety of reasons. Proving that he didn't provide the enthusiasm or emphasis on winning and getting home field advantage is difficult but the result is and was clear. The team had gone on a winning streak prior to that and he gets partial credit for that as he gets partial credit for the near collapse. My understanding of your position is that the manager should not be accountable for team issues and failures. If that is true, what role is he playing?

 

Just for clarification, they didn't lose 9 straight, they lost 8 of 9.

[sk7326]

JF was running the team and we lost 9 straight and for a variety of reasons. Proving that he didn't provide the enthusiasm or emphasis on winning and getting home field advantage is difficult but the result is and was clear. The team had gone on a winning streak prior to that and he gets partial credit for that as he gets partial credit for the near collapse. My understanding of your position is that the manager should not be accountable for team issues and failures. If that is true, what role is he playing?

 

The result was that he made sure that Porcello and Price suddenly wet themselves during two playoff starts - he made sure that a few of Price's good pitches got blooped into spots fielders weren't playing.

 

It is tempting to try to find a lot of reason for the playoff loss, when really "baseball happened". It's why the playoffs are fun sadly.

[S5Dewey]

The result was that he made sure that Porcello and Price suddenly wet themselves during two playoff starts - he made sure that a few of Price's good pitches got blooped into spots fielders weren't playing.

 

It is tempting to try to find a lot of reason for the playoff loss, when really "baseball happened". It's why the playoffs are fun sadly.

 

As we say, once you make the playoffs anything can happen. Sometimes it happens for you and sometimes it happens to you. "Some days you eat the bear and some days the bear eats you".

 

Unfortunately this year we got eaten by the bear.

Edited October 21, 2016 by S5Dewey

[Bellhorn04]

2016 is the 6th time the Sox have been swept in the playoffs since 1988.

 

1988

1990

1995

2005

2009

2016

 

Just be ever so thankful for those 3 beautiful rings...

[sk7326]

2016 is the 6th time the Sox have been swept in the playoffs since 1988.

 

1988

1990

1995

2005

2009

2016

 

Just be ever so thankful for those 3 beautiful rings...

 

And all of those playoff appearances - all you can do is give yourselves a spin ... of course the titles make it easier to be rational and zen about it

[Bellhorn04]

And all of those playoff appearances - all you can do is give yourselves a spin ... of course the titles make it easier to be rational and zen about it

 

Don't they though?

[cp176]

Managers are often given way too much credit when their team's win and certainly too much blame when they lose. The good ones take responsibility for the losses and give all the credit to their players with respect to the wins. Farrell makes the cut.

[SoxHop]

If I was to bet my life, or life savings, or bet it all, I would wan't the absolute best chance of winning. Playoffs are like that.

 

Home field advantage may only be a couple of percentage points, having your team prepped for the playoffs may only be a couple of percentage point advantage. Having your team play loose and ready for the playoffs may only be a couple of percentage point advantage to winning a series.

 

I didn't see any of that done this year.

 

We still may have lost with all those percentage points going our way. But after seeing the results, I am swayed to think something went wrong.