Referendum on John Farrell

[moonslav59]

It is likely pitching and 3rd will be addressed. Hope that can happen without weakening ourselves in other positions or giving away key prospects going forward. Recognizing you have to give up something when trading for something, it will all be about value.

 

I'd love to be able to keep all our key young players and all our top prospects, especially Moncada, Devers, Kopech, Groome and Basabe. IF we're fine with going over the luxury limit and go large and long on EE and pick up a couple RP'ers, maybe we can hold off on making any rash decisions until we know more.

 

Keep Leon, Vazquez and Swihart, until we are more certain, which one we want. Of course, it may run the risk of one losing value by sucking next year. Maybe see if Swihart can play 3B.

 

Keep Moncada and Devers as 3B options for 2018 and beyond. Maybe see about moving Moncada to OF or Devers to 1B at some point.

 

Keep Groome & Kopech. Keep the 6 vet starters. Maybe one helps fill a key pen need in 2017.

 

Basabe or Travis? Maybe, maybe, maybe....

 

Perhaps, we can hold off at 3B or find some cheap quick fix. We could also see what's around at the deadline, if things are not working out at third.

 

Gotta like the mix of prime players, pre-prime stars and highly rated prospects:

 

C: Leon, Vaz, Swi

1B: HanRam, Shaw, (Pablo/Swihart?), Travis

2B: Pedroia, Moncada, Holt

3B: Pablo/Shaw/Moncada, Holt/Hernandez/Rutledge, Devers, Dalbec/Chavis

SS: Bogey, Hernandez, Holt, Dubon

LF: Beni/Young, Holt/Swihart, Basabe

CF: JBJ (Betts/Beni), Holt, Young

RF: Betts, (Beni), Young, Holt

DH: Pablo-Young, (HanRam, Swihart, Moncada)

 

SP: Porcello, Price, ERod, Wright, Buch/Pom

Elias, Owens, Johnson, Kopech, Groome

RP: Kimbrel, Smith (Buch or Pom), Kelly, Ross, Barnes, Abad

Hembree, Scott, Workman, Elias (Owens/Johnson/Kopech/Groome)

 

 

 

[Nick]

It is likely pitching and 3rd will be addressed. Hope that can happen without weakening ourselves in other positions or giving away key prospects going forward. Recognizing you have to give up something when trading for something, it will all be about value.

 

I'd love to be able to keep all our key young players and all our top prospects, especially Moncada, Devers, Kopech, Groome and Basabe. IF we're fine with going over the luxury limit and go large and long on EE and pick up a couple RP'ers, maybe we can hold off on making any rash decisions until we know more.

 

Keep Leon, Vazquez and Swihart, until we are more certain, which one we want. Of course, it may run the risk of one losing value by sucking next year. Maybe see if Swihart can play 3B.

 

Keep Moncada and Devers as 3B options for 2018 and beyond. Maybe see about moving Moncada to OF or Devers to 1B at some point.

 

Keep Groome & Kopech. Keep the 6 vet starters. Maybe one helps fill a key pen need in 2017.

 

Basabe or Travis? Maybe, maybe, maybe....

 

Perhaps, we can hold off at 3B or find some cheap quick fix. We could also see what's around at the deadline, if things are not working out at third.

 

Gotta like the mix of prime players, pre-prime stars and highly rated prospects:

 

C: Leon, Vaz, Swi

1B: HanRam, Shaw, (Pablo/Swihart?), Travis

2B: Pedroia, Moncada, Holt

3B: Pablo/Shaw/Moncada, Holt/Hernandez/Rutledge, Devers, Dalbec/Chavis

SS: Bogey, Hernandez, Holt, Dubon

LF: Beni/Young, Holt/Swihart, Basabe

CF: JBJ (Betts/Beni), Holt, Young

RF: Betts, (Beni), Young, Holt

DH: Pablo-Young, (HanRam, Swihart, Moncada)

 

SP: Porcello, Price, ERod, Wright, Buch/Pom

Elias, Owens, Johnson, Kopech, Groome

RP: Kimbrel, Smith (Buch or Pom), Kelly, Ross, Barnes, Abad

Hembree, Scott, Workman, Elias (Owens/Johnson/Kopech/Groome)

 

 

 

 

It's amazing that so many of our players are either under contract or more importantly under team control for several years, yielding cheap options.

Leon, Vaz, Swihart, Shaw, Travis, Moncada, Holt, Hernadez, Rutledge, Devers, Dalbec, Xander, Dubon, Beni, Basabe, JBJ, E Rod, Wiright, Pomeranz, Elias, Owens, Johnson, Kopech, Groome, Smith, Kelly, Barnes, Hembree, Scott, Workman are all under team control for 2-6+ years (for those with no major league experience on your list).

 

5 year and + team control starters

C. Vaz 1B Travis 2B Hernandez SS Dubon 3B Devers LF Swihart CF Beni RF Moncada DH Dalbec SP E Rod, Wright, Johnson, Kopech, Groome Pen Smith, Barnes, Hembree

Edited October 17, 2016 by Nick

[oldtimer]

Watching the championship series just confirms that pitching and defense overcomes offensive prowess. The Guardians and Blue Jays and one of the Dodgers and Cubs games have been very low scoring. Keep that in mind before going in big for an expensive FA bat for a long term contract. He might help a team reach the playoffs but is just another hitter once against playoff pitching.

 

Best to find or train top notch pitchers, both as starters and RP's. Also, find and keep the best defenders you can get. Hopefully, the hitters we have can play good defense. Something to think about when discussing JBJ as a trade possibility.

 

One random point is that Leon is a decent defender but is listed at 5'10", 225 lbs and is probably 235 lbs. He is very slow and may have durability issues behind the plate playing at what is clearly an overweight situation. Taken with his hitting malaise over the last part of the season, I think we would do better to look for a different solution, whether it be Swihart and Vazquez or some other.

[cp176]

Don't fall into the trap. This isn't about anyone suggesting that pitching should be sacrificed for hitting. Pitching/defense- we all get it. If it was an either or situation, most of us (all of us) would go for the pitching. Many here are of the belief that the Red Sox can have both not just one. What is more important? Is that the real question? Pitching is! So - should the Red Sox use every asset they have to acquire pitching? How much is out there that can be acquired? Personally, I believe in having a balance.

[Slasher9]

Thanks man. It's a relief to know we don't have to worry that much about position players. We should probably trade Betts, Bogaerts, Bradley and Benintendi for hurlers!

 

not all of them. you do need offense during the regular season to actually get to the tournament of the post season.

[Bellhorn04]

not all of them. you do need offense during the regular season to actually get to the tournament of the post season.

 

These playoff games are being dominated by pitching, can't argue with that. We're posting about this in the wrong thread though.

[S5Dewey]

Don't fall into the trap. This isn't about anyone suggesting that pitching should be sacrificed for hitting. Pitching/defense- we all get it. If it was an either or situation, most of us (all of us) would go for the pitching. Many here are of the belief that the Red Sox can have both not just one. What is more important? Is that the real question? Pitching is! So - should the Red Sox use every asset they have to acquire pitching? How much is out there that can be acquired? Personally, I believe in having a balance.

 

I'll venture a guess that if I could have a pitching staff made up of four Clayton Kershaws and position players with the defensive and offensive prowess of JBJ we'd win the WS.

[Bellhorn04]

I'll venture a guess that if I could have a pitching staff made up of four Clayton Kershaws and position players with the defensive and offensive prowess of JBJ we'd win the WS.

 

Well aren't you the bold one.

[cp176]

I'll venture a guess that if I could have a pitching staff made up of four Clayton Kershaws and position players with the defensive and offensive prowess of JBJ we'd win the WS.

 

i'm on board with this one. But what happens if your Clayton Kershaw gets injured?

[Bellhorn04]

i'm on board with this one. But what happens if your Clayton Kershaw gets injured?

 

He's still got 3 of them left.

[cp176]

He's still got 3 of them left.

 

Wait - seriously - Math problem = If you have 4 Clayton Kershaws on your team? Say again - all Clayton Kershaws - and one Clayton Kershaw gets injured- How many do you have left? I get 0 left - I was a History teacher though. There was never a really correct answer . Just more questions.

[S5Dewey]

Well aren't you the bold one.

 

LOL

 

I often find that if I think of things in extremes it helps me to see things clearly.

 

My point was that I'd rather have the situation I spoke of than a team made up of average pitching and defense but with nine mashers. I believe in defense and pitching over offense.

[cp176]

Who doesn't ?

[cp176]

Who doesn't ?

 

My point is that anyone who thinks that we should sign a real hitter to replace Ortiz, does not necessarily think that it has to be done at the expense of missing an opportunity to sign the very best TOTP that we can find.

[moonslav59]

Watching the championship series just confirms that pitching and defense overcomes offensive prowess. The Guardians and Blue Jays and one of the Dodgers and Cubs games have been very low scoring. Keep that in mind before going in big for an expensive FA bat for a long term contract. He might help a team reach the playoffs but is just another hitter once against playoff pitching.

 

I've always been a firm believer in pitching and defense over hitting, but who would have thought the Guardians had a great pitching staff once Carrasco and Salazar went down injured?

 

Yes, they have a great pen, especially once they got Miller, but their rotation without those two is not one I'd want going into the playoffs. Don't get me wrong, they have some nice starters and still have Kluber, but come on.

[moonslav59]

My point is that anyone who thinks that we should sign a real hitter to replace Ortiz, does not necessarily think that it has to be done at the expense of missing an opportunity to sign the very best TOTP that we can find.

 

There are no top FA starting pitchers on the FA market this year anyways.

 

There's certainly an ability to sign EE and trade for an ace- given the nature of an overpay will be needed.

[S5Dewey]

Who doesn't ?

 

Lots of people, apparently. People who are almost salivating at the prospect of picking up Quintana or Sale to pitch every 5th day even if it means giving up a GG caliber CF who plays every day and has an OPS >.800.

[cp176]

Watching the championship series just confirms that pitching and defense overcomes offensive prowess. The Guardians and Blue Jays and one of the Dodgers and Cubs games have been very low scoring. Keep that in mind before going in big for an expensive FA bat for a long term contract. He might help a team reach the playoffs but is just another hitter once against playoff pitching.

 

I've always been a firm believer in pitching and defense over hitting, but who would have thought the Guardians had a great pitching staff once Carrasco and Salazar went down injured?

 

Yes, they have a great pen, especially once they got Miller, but their rotation without those two is not one I'd want going into the playoffs. Don't get me wrong, they have some nice starters and still have Kluber, but come on.

 

OK so you are quite clearly stating that even though we are going to have to trade for a TOTRS this year if we want one, it makes no sense to sign a player of EE's potential bat to replace Ortiz.

[cp176]

Lots of people, apparently. People who are almost salivating at the prospect of picking up Quintana or Sale to pitch every 5th day even if it means giving up a GG caliber CF who plays every day and has an OPS >.800.

 

 

You are suggesting that the White Sox would do deal this deal straight up for JBJ?

 

Once again, people are getting pidgeon holed here. Very very few people have said on this board that they would not be in favor of trade to upgrade our pitching. Betts really seems to be the only one that people feel is untradeable.

[S5Dewey]

Watching the championship series just confirms that pitching and defense overcomes offensive prowess. The Guardians and Blue Jays and one of the Dodgers and Cubs games have been very low scoring. Keep that in mind before going in big for an expensive FA bat for a long term contract. He might help a team reach the playoffs but is just another hitter once against playoff pitching.

 

THIS^^ and here's why: Outstanding pitchers can make good hitters look bad - and often do, especially in the playoffs. Outstanding hitters can make good pitchers look bad, but most teams only have 2-3 outstanding hitters. But the hitters have no control over the defense. The defense is what it is and if it's outstanding today it'll be outstanding tomorrow and the day after that too.

[cp176]

There are no top FA starting pitchers on the FA market this year anyways.

 

There's certainly an ability to sign EE and trade for an ace- given the nature of an overpay will be needed.

 

Thank you. If I thought that signing a player like EE to a contract in any way would hurt our chances of improving our pitching I would oppose it.

[Slasher9]

Wait - seriously - Math problem = If you have 4 Clayton Kershaws on your team? Say again - all Clayton Kershaws - and one Clayton Kershaw gets injured- How many do you have left? I get 0 left - I was a History teacher though. There was never a really correct answer . Just more questions.

 

we will just have the Flash bring us Earth 2's kershaw....

[moonslav59]

OK so you are quite clearly stating that even though we are going to have to trade for a TOTRS this year if we want one, it makes no sense to sign a player of EE's potential bat to replace Ortiz.

 

I'd love to get Quintana and EE, but I'm not for grossly overpaying EE for ther 4-5 years he'll probably get.

 

I do think we need to make an addition to our offense, but I'd prefer at 3B (Frazier? Turner?) than DH.

[Slasher9]

do not spend a dime on DH.

[S5Dewey]

You are suggesting that the White Sox would do deal this deal straight up for JBJ?

 

Once again, people are getting pidgeon holed here. Very very few people have said on this board that they would not be in favor of trade to upgrade our pitching. Betts really seems to be the only one that people feel is untradeable.

Did I say that? Where??

What I've noticed is that every time a trade for Sale or Quintana comes up JBJ's name is the only "quality player" mentioned.

 

If I were DD everyone in that OF (including probably Beni) would be untouchable. I'm not sure people understand how good/valuable that OF is. Assuming Beni is as advertised, we now have corner OF'ers with the skills to be CF's and the power to be corner OF'ers and a GG caliber CF with an OPS >.800. And they all play virtually every day.

 

Our resident Yankee fan has suggested that we should do what we have to do to win now because we have a window of opportunity to do it, and I agree with that. We need a 3B, a couple of relievers, and ideally a SP. I'd 'do what we have to do' in terms of trading as many prospects as we have to in order to get the players we have to get but our core of younger players - the 4 B's would be untouchable.

[cp176]

I'd love to get Quintana and EE, but I'm not for grossly overpaying EE for ther 4-5 years he'll probably get.

 

I do think we need to make an addition to our offense, but I'd prefer at 3B (Frazier? Turner?) than DH.

 

this i get - it is your personal opinion.

[cp176]

we will just have the Flash bring us Earth 2's kershaw....

 

maybe there is more than one. it worked for George Foreman!

 

Clayton#1

Clayton#2

Clayton#3

[cp176]

Lots of people, apparently. People who are almost salivating at the prospect of picking up Quintana or Sale to pitch every 5th day even if it means giving up a GG caliber CF who plays every day and has an OPS >.800.

 

Right here -

[mvp 78]

Right here -

 

Pitching wins championships. Sox aren't quite there yet.

[S5Dewey]

Pitching wins championships. Sox aren't quite there yet.

 

Pitching and defense wins championships. Sox aren't quite there yet.