Referendum on John Farrell

[User Name]

A question. What rating would a team have if they simply didn't steal bases, didn't try to stretch singles into doubles or double into triples, didn't try to take that extra base on a single to center or right, didn't try to score from 2d on singles or from 3d on a fly? In other words, are the baserunning stats skewed toward being cautious?

 

UBR does not handle stolen bases, but BSR does account for everything.

 

The UBR/BSR primer explains that there is a point system awarded for both positive and negative baserunning plays. If a team runs the bases as conservative as possible, their rating would be either neutral (average) or negative if you account for mistakes.

[Maxbialystock]

I am mostly against any philosophy that accepts that it is ok to make some outs in order to gain a perceived advantage. The only general philosophies that I think work have to do with prevention. Pitchers should do their best not to walk batters to prevent baserunners. Hitters who get on base should not take too many risks of running into outs. There are of course exceptions even to these general philosophies. But they both focus on the most important aspect of baseball. Each team gets 27 outs per game. That is baseball's clock. You want to preserve your outs and make your opponents use up theirs.

 

Then we completely disagree and that's fine. I like aggressive baserunning as long as it ain't stupid. HanRam was stupid sometimes last year, and this year it's been mostly Shaw. My rule of thumb is that, if it's a close play but an out, I can live with that.

[Slasher9]

i love the aggressive baserunning. i love the borderline "stupid" baserunning. i love putting pressure on the defense. i love putting pressure on the pitcher. i love how some of our players take off for 2nd the second the ball hits the dirt. run, forest, run.

[SoxnCycles]

i love the aggressive baserunning. i love the borderline "stupid" baserunning. i love putting pressure on the defense. i love putting pressure on the pitcher. i love how some of our players take off for 2nd the second the ball hits the dirt. run, forest, run.

 

Yup, I'm fine with agressive baserunning, if you're forcing the defense to make a good play and the situation (number of outs, defender in question...) calls for it.

[devildavid]

Then we completely disagree and that's fine. I like aggressive baserunning as long as it ain't stupid. HanRam was stupid sometimes last year, and this year it's been mostly Shaw. My rule of thumb is that, if it's a close play but an out, I can live with that.

 

My problem is with instilling a team wide aggressive base running philosophy. A smart baserunning philosophy is something different, and probably impossible to apply. Then you are depending on what each players ideas about what smart baserunning is. I'm not sure how it would come across if the manager tells the team to "always look to take the extra base...except you, you, and you".

Edited June 8, 2016 by devildavid

[Spudboy]

Rumor is that if you say Nava while spinning around three times that Dojji while appear in your mirror.

 

I tried this. All I saw was a fuzzy image of a washed up 3rd baseman.

[Maxbialystock]

Let's not forget, however, that when Nava was a rookie (or a newbie) he once hit a 100 mph fastball from Verlander for an opposite field single. In 2013 we all loved him.

[Youk Of The Nation]

I tried this. All I saw was a fuzzy image of a washed up 3rd baseman.

 

Ewww, A-Rod?

[User Name]

I actually still like Nava, but he was (is) a terrible baserunner.

[Youk Of The Nation]

I'm glad Nava isn't on the team anymore, but I'll always love the guy for 2013. He was a very important and productive part of that WS-winning team. I have nothing but good feelings for him and wish him the best in the future. Some guys you're happy to see the back of, but not him. He only had one really good year with the Sox, but that's enough for me. He'll always have 2013 to look back on. Someday he'll be able to tell his grandkids about how he was an integral part of a World Series championship year, and he deserves that.

[Spudboy]

Ewww, A-Rod?

 

Nyet.

 

It's an obscure Dojji reference.

 

Teahan was one of his binkies.

[User Name]

I thought for sure it'd be Tug Hulett.

[Kimmi]

Every one of Farrell's teams ran the bases like mindless little leaguers. It was so bad in Toronto that Omar Vizquel (a very well respected veteran and borderline Hall of famer) noted that the Blue jay running game was bizarre.

 

This is simply not true.

 

Farrell's Blue Jays were 3rd in the majors in baserunning in 2011 with 12.2 runs above average. They weren't quite as good in 2012, ranking 12th, but they were still above average at 2.5.

 

With the Sox, in 2013, while the team's UBR was -1.0, the team's overall baserunning was 12.1. In 2014, they were bad, -8.3 runs overall. In 2015, they were above average at 0.9 runs overall.

[Kimmi]

Nava was not a terrible baserunner either.

[a700hitter]

This is simply not true.

 

Farrell's Blue Jays were 3rd in the majors in baserunning in 2011 with 12.2 runs above average. They weren't quite as good in 2012, ranking 12th, but they were still above average at 2.5.

 

With the Sox, in 2013, while the team's UBR was -1.0, the team's overall baserunning was 12.1. In 2014, they were bad, -8.3 runs overall. In 2015, they were above average at 0.9 runs overall.

Argue with Omar Vizquel. He was on a Farrell team in Toronto and he made an issue of it in the press, but what would he know without the numbers.

 

I'll rely on the opinion of a 20 year MLB SS and perennial All Star if it conflicts with some new-fangled base running metric, especially since he was on the team.

Edited June 8, 2016 by a700hitter

[User Name]

That's the part where doing something stupid but having it work doesn't show up in the stat sheet. Vizquel wasn't the only one whining about that particular team's baserunning IIRC. Edited June 9, 2016 by User Name?

[a700hitter]

That's the part where doing something stupid but having it work doesn't show up in the stat sheet. Vizquel wasn't the other one whining about that particular team's baserunning IIRC.

Not quite sure what you are saying about Vizquel.

[User Name]

Not quite sure what you are saying about Vizquel.

 

I'm saying he wasn't the only complaining about the team's reckless baserunning. I just don't remember what other high-profile guy it was.

[a700hitter]

I'm saying he wasn't the only complaining about the team's reckless baserunning. I just don't remember what other high-profile guy it was.

Oh, I didn't remember anyone else going public about it. Their baserunning was glaringly stupid. Head shaking stuff. Omar caught some heat for commenting on it. They tried to make him look disloyal, but that was just BS. Vizquel's baseball IQ is off the charts compared to Farrell's. Vizquel was a great player in every facet of the game.

[SoxnCycles]

Yup, stats are awesome, until they show something different than one has already decided is true.

[Kimmi]

Argue with Omar Vizquel. He was on a Farrell team in Toronto and he made an issue of it in the press, but what would he know without the numbers.

 

I'll rely on the opinion of a 20 year MLB SS and perennial All Star if it conflicts with some new-fangled base running metric, especially since he was on the team.

 

You only like the stats and sabermetric studies that agree with your opinion. As soon as one discounts your opinion, it's somehow faulty or "new-fangled". You didn't seem to have a problem with UBR and BsR when they told you "what you already knew about the Sox baserunning".

 

Regardless of what may think, your statement that Farrell's teams have always run the bases like idiots is false.

[Kimmi]

Yup, stats are awesome, until they show something different than one has already decided is true.

 

Bingo.

[User Name]

Maybe the "like idiots" hyperbolic statement is incorrect. Maybe "with reckless aggressiveness" is more accurate, since the problem with Farrell teams in general are the baserunning situations not pertaining to stolen bases.

[devildavid]

I was critical of some moves by the team today (6/19). Mookie got thrown out trying to steal and Hanley got picked off. Really dumb in a game where runs were hard to come by. The bunt by Vazquez was a bad play. I know he's not hitting well but just let him swing away. Bunting sucks, especially because most players can't do it but mostly 'cause it's a wasted out.

[Bellhorn04]

I was critical of some moves by the team today (6/19). Mookie got thrown out trying to steal and Hanley got picked off. Really dumb in a game where runs were hard to come by. The bunt by Vazquez was a bad play. I know he's not hitting well but just let him swing away. Bunting sucks, especially because most players can't do it but mostly 'cause it's a wasted out.

 

In this case a successful bunt would have brought in a run, so it's a little more defensible.

[Kimmi]

I was critical of some moves by the team today (6/19). Mookie got thrown out trying to steal and Hanley got picked off. Really dumb in a game where runs were hard to come by. The bunt by Vazquez was a bad play. I know he's not hitting well but just let him swing away. Bunting sucks, especially because most players can't do it but mostly 'cause it's a wasted out.

 

I have no problem with Mookie trying to steal there. It's never good when they get caught, but the team's success rate has been very good.

 

Hanley getting picked off was really a bonehead move. I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that he leads the league in outs made on the basepaths by 4 or 5. Not good.

[Kimmi]

In this case a successful bunt would have brought in a run, so it's a little more defensible.

 

I have been tracking the team's use of the sac bunt this season. To date, the team has attempted 9 sac bunts, some successful, others not.

 

I am happy to report that Farrell has done a pretty good job so far in terms of using the sac bunt. The bunt attempts that were absolutely the wrong call were ones that the players did on their own.

 

I think Farrell and his coaching staff 'get it' when it comes to sacrificing.

[mvp 78]

Hanley is garbage on the basepaths. He needs a shrink to fix that, not a coach. Thankfully, the rest of his play has been great.

[Slasher9]

did you guys hate it when he ran through the stop sign on the overthrow to second base and scored?

[a700hitter]

Hanley is garbage on the basepaths. He needs a shrink to fix that, not a coach. Thankfully, the rest of his play has been great.

Thankfully, he still has enough speed to outrun many of his bonehead mistakes, but he is a knucklehead on the bases.